Shock & Awe has begun, Iraq being blown up.

[Guest SP-1]

I do agree that our past decisions and leaders had a hand in helping create this mess. I think this war is probably a huge reminder that hindsight is indeed 20/20, even if we'd never admit it.

 

But, I also think that our present leaders can't be held accountable for the actions of their predecessors. The actions they are choosing to pursue now will either be great, or wind up hurting us. All they can do is do what they think is best.

 

The pictures of the people helping the US Troops tear down pictures of Saddam was comforting though.

[Guest Powerplay]

Some guy snuck into a US base in Kuwait and chucked grenades at two command tents.

 

6 seriously injured 2 not serious.

 

2,100 infantry men moving out after him right now.

CNN reports that they've caught the man.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

These seem to be pre-planned flight paths and bombs programmed to land at certain destinations. If I were a civilian in Baghdad, I'd just stay away from government buildings and Saddam's palaces.

That's EXACTLY what we want to happen as well.

 

I fully expect Saddam to get some human shields before long, though.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I hate to think what would happen if we fail to find the weapons (either from being hidden so well, or being totally moved to another country).

Silly citizen. If nothing's there, we for sure will plant something. I bet tons of chemical weapons are already on carriers in undisclosed locations in the gulf just in case. Sort of like how the planes on 9/11 blew up in flames and incinerated every molecule in sight instantly, including the indestructable black boxes, yet someone's paper and plastic passport was "found" a few miles away from the crash, blown in the wind.

 

It's the american way.

Ah, the "Evil American" conspiracy theorist.

 

I'd respond --- but I can't tell if you're serious or attempting to make a joke here.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I particularly like how people like to bring up "Commandments" like Thou Shalt Not Kill on their signs.  When I'm willing to bet that they can't hold up to all of the commandments themselves.  Trying to guilt Christians is fun, I guess.

nobody's perfect but that's kinda a MAJOR one right there.

 

I've been listening to all of it on my radio up here and frankly to me America is being overlyconfident. This war has just started and your already killing your selves.

 

Pace yourselves so that there's some left of you to drop bombs on the Canadians if we ever get involved.

 

 

 

 

Seriously though, I don't really approve of war but Hussien is a evil man and needs to be stopped. But remember those weapons he's using to kill American soldiers were given to him by America. The people in Iraq are so poor and sick partly because of the UN sanctions that the US spearheaded.

 

No one is blameless.

Actually, France sold him TONS of stuff over the years, so how much of his armada is from the U.S (as if that is close to being a worthy point to even discuss) is a debate.

 

And, much as I love Canada, I hope PM Chretien gets slapped by somebody most fiercely.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Some guy snuck into a US base in Kuwait and chucked grenades at two command tents.

 

6 seriously injured 2 not serious.

 

2,100 infantry men moving out after him right now.

Hmm, using the logic of some on these boards, we don't have any right to get the guy, since we're far better armed than he.

-=Mike --- as Booker T said: "If you don't start none, there won't be none"

[Guest EricMM]

I really hope My Eyebrow Is On Fire was kidding.

 

Who was the guy who tried to tell all of us that they weren't planes that hit the WTC, that they were really missles?

[Guest MarvinisaLunatic]

Some guy snuck into a US base in Kuwait and chucked grenades at two command tents.

 

6 seriously injured 2 not serious.

 

2,100 infantry men moving out after him right now.

Hmm, using the logic of some on these boards, we don't have any right to get the guy, since we're far better armed than he.

-=Mike --- as Booker T said: "If you don't start none, there won't be none"

well, this is a turn of events considering that it was an AMERICAN soldier who threw the granade.

 

Traitors get the death penalty..

[Guest SP-1]

Whoa. I haven't been watching the news this evening. An American threw the grenade??

[Guest DrTom]

The people in Iraq are so poor and sick partly because of the UN sanctions that the US spearheaded.

Wrong. It's entirely Saddam's fault his people are starving. Since the sanctions have begun, he's spent millions of dollars on palaces and trappings like that. He's currently up to *125,000* "presidential buildings." He also stopped feeding a lot of his people a few days before the bombings began, particularly those in the south.

 

But I suppose that's our fault too?

[Guest EricMM]

DrTom apparently everything Saddam does is our fault.

[Guest DrTom]

He'd like his people and all the other fuckheaded rulers in the Middle East to believe that, Eric. The shame of it is that a lot of them probably do.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

He'd like his people and all the other fuckheaded rulers in the Middle East to believe that, Eric. The shame of it is that a lot of them probably do.

Saddam is using Hitler's old playbook --- blame somebody else for your problems.

 

Anybody who blames the sanctions for the plight of the Iraqi people is a moron.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I particularly like how people like to bring up "Commandments" like Thou Shalt Not Kill on their signs.  When I'm willing to bet that they can't hold up to all of the commandments themselves.  Trying to guilt Christians is fun, I guess.

I personally love the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill", especially when morons like these people take it totally out of context to mean you aren't to kill ANYTHING/ANYONE. I love it even more when vegies use it to mean animals, heh.

Something I've always been curious about in regards to vegetarian morality --- why is it OK for living plants to be killed for food, but not living animals? -=Mike

[Guest SP-1]

Vegans like to twist things around to feel more important. Like hardcore Indy music fans and people who think Triple H is a suitable World Champion.

 

In all seriousness, the Vegans that use biblical text generally take it out of context (which is bad), and/or give it a different meaning than was intended.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

But remember those weapons he's using to kill American soldiers were given to him by America. The people in Iraq are so poor and sick partly because of the UN sanctions that the US spearheaded.

We gave him a token amount of chemical weapons back in the 1980's. He's created far more chemical and biological weapons than we gave him. He's attacking with Russian guns, Russian tanks, Russian artillery, Russian AA, Russian missiles, Russian planes. Who gave him weapons again?

a "Token" amount is still enough to kill alot of innocent people. If a murder kills 5 people instead of 10 does that make him less guilty?

[Guest Powerplay]

But remember those weapons he's using to kill American soldiers were given to him by America. The people in Iraq are so poor and sick partly because of the UN sanctions that the US spearheaded.

We gave him a token amount of chemical weapons back in the 1980's. He's created far more chemical and biological weapons than we gave him. He's attacking with Russian guns, Russian tanks, Russian artillery, Russian AA, Russian missiles, Russian planes. Who gave him weapons again?

a "Token" amount is still enough to kill alot of innocent people. If a murder kills 5 people instead of 10 does that make him less guilty?

CWM, you are missing the point that he hasn't used any American weapons against us. Everything he's used so far has been Russian in origin. And if he does use chemical weapons it will most likely be from his own batch rather than anything we gave him 20 years ago.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

it's been used on others though. And even selling it to the man should have been a crime. I'm not excusing Russia but America is responsible also.

[Guest Powerplay]

it's been used on others though. And even selling it to the man should have been a crime. I'm not excusing Russia but America is responsible also.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see this point of bringing this up again. We are trying to correct the errors of our past and free the Iraqi people. We are ACCEPTING THE RESPONSIBLITY, in effect. Now look at the Russians: They have been selling the Iraqi Government arms for God only knows how long, and even during the week just before the invasion they were selling GPS Jammers to them. They refuse to unseat him from power at all. They aren't taking responsibility. So what are we doing wrong here?

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I'd be cautious to say the "Russian Government" is selling these arms.

 

Their own military has been known to sell their country's arms (meaning, seperate members thereof) for the right price. I'm not convinced the government itself is selling these arms.

 

Then again, everything is speculation and so is that.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

it's been used on others though. And even selling it to the man should have been a crime. I'm not excusing Russia but America is responsible also.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see this point of bringing this up again. We are trying to correct the errors of our past and free the Iraqi people. We are ACCEPTING THE RESPONSIBLITY, in effect. Now look at the Russians: They have been selling the Iraqi Government arms for God only knows how long, and even during the week just before the invasion they were selling GPS Jammers to them. They refuse to unseat him from power at all. They aren't taking responsibility. So what are we doing wrong here?

The russian government doesn't know what's going on outside of Parliment much less elsewhere in their own country.

 

And yes it's good you're trying to make up for the mistakes you made but I've yet to hear anyone in the government admit to making a mistake. Also "Correcting a mistake" is to casual a term to use when talkng of the most prescious thing in the world, human life.

 

Saddam Hussien has proven his callous disregard for human life before as have Americans (Vietnam alone had many of them.)

 

Does Hussien deserve to lead Iraq? No. Does America have the right to tell a country who and who can not be it's own leader? No, no country has that right. Think about it. Would it make sense for the French (random choice) to target America because it felt Bush was a false President (Hanging chads anyone?)? France has reasons to hate America. But i've yet to see them do anything like that.

 

Now I'm going to lie down as it's my birthday and I'm drunk and this all probably made no sense.

[Guest Powerplay]

The russian government doesn't know what's going on outside of Parliment much less elsewhere in their own country.

Agreed, though I doubt they would show restraint in selling people their massive military surpluses while they go ever further into debt. At least, when they sell the stuff, they are making the profit, and I don't think are gonna pass up many opportunities like that.

 

And yes it's good you're trying to make up for the mistakes you made but I've yet to hear anyone in the government admit to making a mistake. Also "Correcting a mistake" is to casual a term to use when talkng of the most prescious thing in the world, human life.

 

Why do we need to admit it when we all know about it? There is no point in constantly banging your head against the wall because you made a wrongdoing or some other word. I know it's a casual word, but what other would you have me use?

 

Yes, 'mistake' is a casual term, but I lack the time to write out an elaborate paragraph explaining what that mistake may have lead to. I'm sorry, but I'm lazy that way .

 

Saddam Hussien has proven his callous disregard for human life before as have Americans (Vietnam alone had many of them).

 

Vietnam proves nothing. We've done nothing like Saddam. We've never gassed Civilian populations, nor did we torture prisoners of war. In fact, the North Vietnamese were far more callous with their views on human life and such when they would bomb civilian centers in Saigon and torture American POWs.

 

Does Hussien deserve to lead Iraq? No.

 

Good. We agree.

 

Does America have the right to tell a country who and who can not be it's own leader? No, no country has that right.

 

We are unseating a leader because the people themselves don't want them but they can't fight him. The Iraqi people don't have the power or the means to rise up, so with this suggestion they would basically remain under Saddam's reign until he died or was taken over in a military coup (Highly unlikely).

 

Think about it. Would it make sense for the French (random choice) to target America because it felt Bush was a false President (Hanging chads anyone?)? France has reasons to hate America. But i've yet to see them do anything like that.

 

Please give me a break. The election is over, get over it. Numerous 3rd parties have gone in and determined that Bush would have won anyways.

 

Secondly, on your reasons to invade... Did Bush round up dissenters and torture them and their families? No. Did Bush ever use deadly chemical weapons on his own people? Does Bush pay $25,000 to the families of Suicide Bombers who attack civilian populations? Has Bush ever threatened to bring death and destruction on the free world? No.

 

France's reasons for hating America consist of: 1) Us being Americans. 2) We have more power than them.

 

Wow, a little difference there, ain't it?

 

Now I'm going to lie down as it's my birthday and I'm drunk and this all probably made no sense.

 

WHOO! CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG.....

[Guest EricMM]

We aren't attacking Iraq because of what Saddam is doing to his people. We'd never stop if that was the case. We'd have to move on to every petty dictator in most third world countries.

 

We're doing it because apparently he's a valid threat to US lives.

[Guest Powerplay]

Well, Eric, the fact that he's done these things and what his weapon capabilities are help make the argument for invasion. It shows that he's an insanely cruel dictator who isn't afraid to hurt his enemies in whatever way possible, even if it means sacrificing innocent people.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

We've never gassed Civilian populations, nor did we torture prisoners of war.

No but you have dropped TWO nuclear bombs on civilian populations.

[Guest Powerplay]

We've never gassed Civilian populations, nor did we torture prisoners of war.

No but you have dropped TWO nuclear bombs on civilian populations.

Atomic, and by doing so we averted an invasion that was to cause 1,000,000 U.S. Casualties and many more Japanese. Of course, I'm sure it doesn't matter in your view because we still had to sacrifice lives to save so many more...

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

No it matters to me very much since. ANY life is precious.

 

But think about this. You droped TWO Atomic Bombs. Were they both neccasary or would One have been enough to end the war??

[Guest Powerplay]

No it matters to me very much since. ANY life is precious.

 

But think about this. You droped TWO Atomic Bombs. Were they both neccasary or would One have been enough to end the war??

Both, considering the Japanese military was planning a counter-attack after the first one was dropped, and they stop planning after the second one until the Emperor himself had to stop the damn madness.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

If we would have waited about two months, Russia would have overrun Japan themselves, probably.

[Guest MrRant]

<plug>

 

This is why I am trying to get the Social Studies folder rocking over at VA (in the sig) so that way when a thread goes off into history it can be resumed there and the original thread stays on topic.

 

</Shameless Plug>