Would it be so bad if the WWE died ?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

In term of putting guys over though at the right time, it's tough though.

 

Oh yeah. I mean, they wanted Ricco to be their poster-boy and he ended up losing to Sylvia. The risk is there, and even though you can't eliminate it, you can minimize it. It's all about controlling the environment.

[Guest Brian]

Totally agreed, but that uncontrollability is what sometimes makes it hard to promote, andis probably why it's going to take a lot of time to build up to a competition standpoint.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Hopefully Pride will even that out if (and when) they come over.

 

Also, you can build storylines around a shocking loss. The UFC could have Ricco commentate on the next PPV, play up the fact that Ricco lost because he underestimated Sylvia but has learned from the experience and has gotten better. This creates an interest in the rematch. Josh Barnett, bring him back, he is the outcast Champion - he can come in and proclaim himself as the #1 fighter who never lost the title. He can say that the current champion is a fake. This creates interest. Jens Pulver can come in and say the same thing, but spin it like he was never appreciated. He can talk about beating everyone the UFC put infront of him, he can talk about how he loved being the champion and how he slept with the title under his pillow. Then he can say that the UFC never appreciated him, how he was insulted by the pay they gave him. He could either play the victim or the heel in this matter. He could play the Bret Hart role saying "I got screwed, no one respects me, fuck off" or "I'm going to work harder to prove myself to you...to show you that I am a superstar."

 

It's just a matter of being creative and knowing your wrestling storylines

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

The only problem I see with your view, RRR, is that you are taking YOUR view as the general wrestling public's view. I know far too many people that have seen what you and I would consider to be great wrestling and call it crap simply because it ISN'T the WWE-style that they prefer. The real problem isn't that WWE isn't as good a product as Promotion X, but that WWE is a different product than Promotion X. I'm not denying that WWE is in a rut right now, and that more bad decisions are made than good ones (signing Hogan, allowing HHH to run wild, McMahon-saturated television, etc.), but I am denying that the company will die off simply because a small amount of the total wrestling public doesn't like the product.

 

In order for WWE to actually die, the product needs to be worse in EVERY which way (including match quality from every single individual worker) than it was in the "Dark Ages" on the mid-1990's. We would need Nathan Jones and Batista being the only two wrestlers left, no entertaining characters at all, and no matches even half the calibre of Angle/Benoit from Royal Rumble '03.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

I've only recently started to wish the WWE death and failure, specifically since the signing of The Radicalz and Chris Jericho. There are certain things in the WWE that should have been "givens", things so obvious even the most retarded of casual fans would think of it. There are also things so stupid that even the most retarded of casual fans would balk at the idea.

 

So far the WWE has fucked up 99% of the wrestlers that come through their door and gone through with an alarming amount of things they should never have thought of in the first place. Vince hates us. It's not a debate. It's a fact. Vince hates wrestling. It's not a debate either. It's a fact. I hope to still be a wrestling fan when the WWE comes crashing down and I can finally get some vindication when Vince goes away.

[Guest JDMattitudeV1]

As much as I don't want the WWE to die, I can actually see it happening in the next 3-10 years. They just keep making bad business decisions. There has been

- The XFL

- WWF New York

- Smackdown Records

- Signing has beens and nostalgia acts to fat contracts

- The Brand Extension

- Stephanie Mcmahon: Head writer

- and too many more to list, and they are not showing signs of fixing things. They are going to soon launch their own movie brand, which is destined to fail. They to realise that they are a WRESTLING company and they need to fix that and not setting out on outside ventures that they have no idea how to run. They appear to have signed another nostalgia act in Goldberg, who will bring nothing to the company other than problems. And they keep Steph as the head writer despite the fact that things have gone down hill ever since she took over, and proceed to fire or demote anyone who points out their problems. Face it if there isn't a drastic change of attitude in the near future we could be witnessing the end of wrestling as we know it.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The only problem I see with your view, RRR, is that you are taking YOUR view as the general wrestling public's view. I know far too many people that have seen what you and I would consider to be great wrestling and call it crap simply because it ISN'T the WWE-style that they prefer.

 

Vince McMahon has conditioned the wrestling fan to accept certain things. Wrestlers must be big and muscular. Wrestlers must work at a fast pace. Wrestlers must have catch phrases. However, wrestling fans can be conditioned to like other things. Wrestling fans watch wrestling for a reason. I refuse to believe that "wrestling" plays a little part in this. If Vince McMahon didn't have the ring then he wouldn't have anything.

 

"Wrestling" has been around too long to be considered 'unpopular' while "sports entertainment" has had a much shorter shelf-life. (which is not to say that the theatric elements of pro wrestling haven't been there throughout its history, however, the main focus has always been on in-ring product. The WWE stepped away from that in the attitude era - where matches were based around storylines rahter than storylines based around matches).

 

I look at the fans right now - I see them giving standing ovations to Benoit/Angle and I see them booing HHH/Steiner. They can and do appreciate in-ring work and can recognize what is good and what is shit when they see it. Do I like seeing great wrestling? Yes. Does this influence my judgement? Yeah. Does "Wrestling fans want to see Wrestling" have it's foundation in reality? Yep.

 

In relating this to independant wrestling - the WWE can EASILY open the door. The way I see it, if they convinced people that Chyna was sexy they can convince people that indy wrestling is worth their time. It offers something fresh. I can't see fans not responding to Low Ki (they responded VERY WELL to him in his Metal outings). The WWE needs something fresh. You can see a co-relation between the fall of the WWE and them not pulling the trigger on Jericho, Benoit, and Angle. I can't see why the WWE doesn't push as many new stars as possible (I can see why, but logically, I can't see why) - the laws of averages shows that someone will stick.

 

The real problem isn't that WWE isn't as good a product as Promotion X, but that WWE is a different product than Promotion X. I'm not denying that WWE is in a rut right now, and that more bad decisions are made than good ones (signing Hogan, allowing HHH to run wild, McMahon-saturated television, etc.), but I am denying that the company will die off simply because a small amount of the total wrestling public doesn't like the product.

 

A small amount? Que? Avg Rating today: 3.5 Avg Rating 3 years ago: 6.0... Avg Attendance Today: 5000 fans. Avg Attendance 3 years ago: 15 000 fans.

 

In order for WWE to actually die, the product needs to be worse in EVERY which way (including match quality from every single individual worker) than it was in the "Dark Ages" on the mid-1990's. We would need Nathan Jones and Batista being the only two wrestlers left, no entertaining characters at all, and no matches even half the calibre of Angle/Benoit from Royal Rumble '03.

 

You're right and you're wrong. All it takes is a few more screwing of the fans and they will leave in the thousands. You can't keep promising things and not delivering.

 

You are forgetting one thing: The WWE is a public company. If they don't show growth investors will take their money and invest elsewhere. The pressure on Vince McMahon to give those shareholders a reason to keep their investment with him is great. This means he will do stupid things and hotshot rather than take things slowly. Which means more screwing of the fans...

[B. Brian Brunzell 0]

But we've been so accustomed to being screwed thta if Vince keeps doing it to us, will it even matter? Will we all turn away, or will we keep watching anyway, in hopes of improvement. Ya know, kind of like what we're doign right now.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

There is only so much fans will take. The WWE has been dumb lucky so far - they should really be out of business by now with the way they treat their fans.

[B. Brian Brunzell 0]

That's very true. But I still think that fans will truly believe that no matter what Vince does, he's a genius and will be able to turn things around.

 

The onyl problem, as you said, is that if his shareholders and sponsers lose all faith and bail, leaving him alone with no sponsers, no shareholders, and a small audience. Only at that point, I think, would the WWF actually cease operations.

[Guest Retro Rob]

There's no such thing as Free TV.

 

You give your Time. You give your interest. You allow them to feed you advertisements. You pay a cable bill. You buy a TV.

 

There is greater value in paying for a $10 (Japanese, Indy, Best of, whatever) Tape than watching 'free' (Crappy) WWE.

1. I don't only pay for cable so I can watch the WWE. Even going by your logic, I'm not paying the WWE directly like I would be paying TNA if I ordered their PPVs.

 

2. UPN and the syndicated shows actually do cost nothing since you could watch them with just an antenna.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

If WWE goes under, so does my interest in wrestling. Previously, I could always jump to WCW, but being in Ottawa that's all there is. I don't enough money or time on my hands to buy a lot of tapes, and I couldn't get myself interested without the weekly episodic format anyways.

 

There aren't exactly a lot of indy promotions hanging around Ottawa either. I would have to take VIA Rail to Montreal or Toronto to attend an event, and I sure as hell am not going to that. If I didn't do that for Wrestlemania last year, I sure as hell am not going to do it for some indy promotion.

 

I refuse to watch a Vince Russo written show, so NWATNA is out of the question.

 

Wrestling will survive, but my interest in wrestling won't unless there is a company I can just turn on the tv to watch every week.

 

Besides, I like WWE right at the moment (at least Smackdown). There is some bad stuff, but it is still enjoyable. There is far more promise than there was this time last year.

 

I don't no Vince personally, and I could care less what he thinks of me. If he hates his fans, so be it. I could care less. As long as he entertains me.

 

You obviously don't need WWE to enjoy wrestling, so why don't you just ignore it and watch what you do like. I pretty much forgot WCW existed after the Arquette fiasco.

 

But if WWE goes under, I'm fucked.

[Guest Luke Cage]

Would it be bad if the WWF died?

No.

[Guest Coffey]

Would it be bad for the wrestling business if the WWE went under? Yes, it would be like hitting the reset button on a Nintendo. You'd have to start all over.

 

Would it be bad for the fans of wrestling if the WWE went under? I say yes again. People like Austin, Benoit & Guerrero would get out of the business. That would be reason enough for it to be bad. Not to mention most people wouldn't be able to watch wrestling on T.V. anymore. I know that I don't have any local Indy feds that I could follow and support. Just because we, as smarks, aren't entertained by RAW doesn't mean that the business is close to falling.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

1. I don't only pay for cable so I can watch the WWE. Even going by your logic, I'm not paying the WWE directly like I would be paying TNA if I ordered their PPVs.

 

In order to watch the WWE do you have to pay money? Yes or no.

 

2. UPN and the syndicated shows actually do cost nothing since you could watch them with just an antenna.

 

You're thinking of 'cost' merely in monetary terms.

[syxx2001 0]

Kahran Ramsus, were you a WCW fan during 1997-1999? Because maybe you aren't aware, but Russo did write the WWF shows during that time.

 

And somethings do need restarting. Like the video game industry. It almost died, but Nintendo came out of no where and brought it back. And then you have the indys.

 

If the WWE was to die, and TNA picked up Rock or Flair for a show and advertised it, LOADS of people would order the show either just to see their hero Flair, or see their wanna be husband Rocky. And then there would be the other people who would hope for Dreamer to show up during the show as a surprise or something. And if Jarrett has any friends in the WWE, he could try and get them to come in for cheap or for free, as long as he pays for their plane ticket.

 

Then there are the people who say that wrestling would be dead without the WWE. One word: WrestleMania. Someone could create a show, and TNA would be the ones to do it cause the have moderate money, and put it in The Pyramid or the Asylum. Have closed circuit television in the arena they dont use. And then they just hope for the best. And like I said, they would have the money from the people who piled up in the Asylum and the Pyramid in Memphis who came just to see Austin. Just to see Rock. Just to see Booker T. And then they could promise the future of wrestling with guys like the Truth and Raven and Styles and Red and Kash and Lynn and all of the other guys. And the sheep would cheer who they saw others cheering and boo who they saw others booing. It could work. Maybe it couldn't. But if it was to happen, it would have to happen RIGHT AFTER WWE crashed. Not 4 or 5 months after. By that time, people would have said 'fuck it' and went on with some other fad, like indoor fishing or something.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Would it be bad for the wrestling business if the WWE went under? Yes, it would be like hitting the reset button on a Nintendo. You'd have to start all over.

 

Why is this a bad thing? The only way it's bad is if you aren't willing to spend money to go to an indy show or to buy wrestling tapes. If you aren't willing to expend that little effort in getting your wrestling fix then your tears carry very little weight to me. The WWE is a flower that has dried up the wrestling industries earth - a re-start would help create new fertile ground.

 

Would it be bad for the fans of wrestling if the WWE went under? I say yes again. People like Austin, Benoit & Guerrero would get out of the business. That would be reason enough for it to be bad.

 

Benoit and Guerrero would go to Japan or start up their own wrestling schools. Austin could start up his own promotion.

 

Not to mention most people wouldn't be able to watch wrestling on T.V. anymore. I know that I don't have any local Indy feds that I could follow and support. Just because we, as smarks, aren't entertained by RAW doesn't mean that the business is close to falling.

 

Look at the trends. It's not close to dying, no one is saying that, 3 years time however...

[Guest Coffey]

If the WWE dies, wrestling dies. That's the way I see it. That's why I'm against it. 80% of the wrestlers whom aren't in WWE have illusions of one day being there. That's why most of them got into the business. The kids grew up on Macho Man & Hogan not Jumpin' Kyle Jack from Owensboro, Kentucky. You have to realize, to MOST people, wrestling IS the WWE. Most people don't know about AJPW, NJPW, NWA or Indies. Sure, people who read the net do, but they know about everything else as well.

 

Wrestling isn't even bad to most marks. They are happy just SEEING their favorites.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

In the indies, if people stop being wrestlers because the WWE isn't there rather than continuing on simply because they love to do it, I won't mourn the loss.

[Guest bravesfan]

If the WWE goes under...well, the entire sport goes under.Your big names (Hogan, Austin, HHH, Rock) will pursue some other entertainment role; the independents are simply a place to make a name for yourself, not to thrive as a "star".

 

A small amount? Que? Avg Rating today: 3.5 Avg Rating 3 years ago: 6.0... Avg Attendance Today: 5000 fans. Avg Attendance 3 years ago: 15 000 fans.

 

So what? The WCW was around then. The WWF had a competitor to keep their product in check. If you didn't like what on Nitro, you watched Raw...and vice-versa. Now, it's a matter of whether Vince can keep the fan's interest until another promotion makes it to cable television.

 

IMO, the basic conclusion, is that business is down - not because of the quality of the product, but because the wrestling "boom" is over. Attendance has only leveled out at major events - Wrestlemania, Summerslam, Survivor Series, Royal Rumble. House show attendance has been down since early 2001, and the product was kicking ample ass back then.

[Guest Coffey]

In the indies, if people stop being wrestlers because the WWE isn't there rather than continuing on simply because they love to do it, I won't mourn the loss.

You won't, but the business as a whole might.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

No it won't. Less bad workers isn't a terrible thing for the industry. Anyone who works in the indys and expects to get paid big in a year doesn't know what they are doing and getting into. Anyone not willing to sacrifice doesn't have heart, and if they don't have heart then their matches will ultimately suck.

[Guest bravesfan]

In the indies, if people stop being wrestlers because the WWE isn't there rather than continuing on simply because they love to do it, I won't mourn the loss.

 

How would the influx of new wrestlers be motivated into entering the business? What would they be shooting for?

 

The WWE, at this point, is the pinnacle of wrestling. Wrestlers simply use the independents as a means to be discovered...definitely not to stay in the Kentucky indies and make $75 a night, while breaking your back night in and night out.

 

There's a fine line between "a love for the business" and "not being able to feed your family".

[Guest Coffey]

If they have no future in the business, if the WWE goes under, why would any of them have heart?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

How would the influx of new wrestlers be motivated into entering the business? What would they be shooting for?

 

To entertain the fans. To put on a great match. To become one of the best wrestlers in the world. If you love wrestling it shouldn't matter where you do it, infront of 50 or 50,000. What did people shoot for before the WWE?

 

The WWE, at this point, is the pinnacle of wrestling. Wrestlers simply use the independents as a means to be discovered...definitely not to stay in the Kentucky indies and make $75 a night, while breaking your back night in and night out.

 

Some use it as a way to develop their in-ring skills. I know, wrestlers wrestling for the sake of wrestling is a foreign concept.

 

There's a fine line between "a love for the business" and "not being able to feed your family".

 

Yep, and those who won't cross that line don't have enough commitment to be great wrestlers. If you get in it for the money, you're going to get a rude awakening.

 

If they have no future in the business, if the WWE goes under, why would any of them have heart?

 

There are ways to grow as a wrestler other than in the pocketbook... There is satisfaction in wrestling other than making a million dollars.

[Guest Coffey]

You can't make a living off $20 a night. Especially after gas. That's by yourself...not with a family. You're thick headed if you believe otherwise. Love of the business? Yeah, and? There is a difference between having a love of the business, and being a fucking idiot that can't even buy a loaf of bread.

 

"Yep, and those who won't cross that line don't have enough commitment to be great wrestlers. If you get in it for the money, you're going to get a rude awakening."

 

They know they aren't going to make a lot of money in the indies. However, they *think* that if they work hard and stay dedicated that they will move up the ladder and eventually make money. No one thinks "I'll entertain these 35 fans for $25 a night for the next 40 years because I love the business." Don't be a fucking idiot.

 

You can reply to that if you wish, but I'm not listening to you anymore. In fact, I think I'll go spark a conversation with my cat.

[Guest subliminal_animal]

If WWE died, the indies would cop a beating. For independent wrestling to be strong, there needs to be mainstream wrestling. The 60s & 70s are not coming back, "territory" wrestling is gone. Give up.

P.S. Why do you include Kurt Angle as "one who doesn't care that much for the sport"?? He's putting it all on the line by competing at Mania, seems to me he loves the business as much as anyone

I think when people say that, a lot of the time it's because they think Kurt still looks down on pro wrestling and most pro wrestlers because of his amateur background and all.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Kahran Ramsus, were you a WCW fan during 1997-1999? Because maybe you aren't aware, but Russo did write the WWF shows during that time.

 

I quit watching WWF in the fall of 1997 when it was obvious it was getting terrible. I watched WCW almost exclusively in 1998.

 

I did see 1999, because WCW was terrible then too, but I hated every minute of it. It got better around Armageddon time.

[LooseCannon25 0]

I think it would be bad.....why? If WWE went under you think even 5% of these guys are gonna go to the indies or TNA to work for peanuts for the rest of their careers? You need to ask yourself this......if you're making anywhere from $250,000 - $900,000 a year in the WWE and it goes under would you be satisfied working for $20 - $200 a show. The second biggest company here, which is TNA, might be able to make a good payout for a few appearances but theres no way they can continually pay someone with a guaranteed contract to that type of money. The only place these guys would be able to go is Japan and that would do us NO good whatsoever. Territorial wrestling comapnies would come back like the 60's-80's and it would be like deja vu when another big promoter comes and expads the company to national. It would take a LONG time though. So, yeah i think it would be bad not just for wrestling, but think of all of the employees that would be jobless and have what they love doing taken away.

[Guest Brian]

Terrirtories are not going to come back with the influx of stars. It's going to take a serious re-structuring of the indies to do that. There are no longer the hotbeds to support it.