Guest Dmann2000 Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Agreed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted April 30, 2003 The thing we have to remember about Angle and Benoit is that they're not done. I truly believe that they can eclipse their Royal Rumle match by a good margin. Just look at their short but sweet rematch on Smackdown. Benoit brought out yet another counter to the Angle slam and Angle brought out a new version of his powerbomb turnbuckle spot from the Rumble match. That makes I believe 5 counters to the Angle slam alone that Benoit has brought out. They also left open the eventual great dramatic spot in the rematch where Benoit will find some way to counter Angle's laying leglock. A 40 to 60 minute match will completely rule between these two. Perhaps at next year's Wrestlemania where Benoit will finally win his title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Benoit and Angle is far from Flair/Steamboat and far from greatness. Flair and Steamboat were working the high end of good matches at their time. Still, in 1989, Tsuruta and Tenyru had the 6/5 match that blows Steamboat/Flair out of the water. Benoit/Angle has been a decent series of matches. The WM 17 match was good for about 5 minutes then Angle got blown up and wasn't any good at working the rest of the match. Backlash 2001 was 30 minutes of nonsense. Judgement Day 2001 was a fustercluck. Unforgiven 2002 was smackdown spot fu style. Royal Rumble 2003 was TERRIFIC in spots but downright nutty in other spots. Benoit/Angle are not: Jumbo/Tenyru Misawa/Kawada Hanson/Kobashi Liger/Benoit Otani/Benoit Angle just isn't a deep enough worker. And that's up against Tenyru of 1988-1989, which really does say a lot. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jobber of the Week Report post Posted April 30, 2003 I think if McMahon could ever get over his predictible booking and let Brock Lesnar be a normal guy who could get beaten every now and then and let him be more than a younger Undertaker, Brock vs Angle could eventually be the next Rock & Austin. They've already had the "epic" match that everyone will remember, and now all they need to do is have a bunch of later matches where they trade wins and expand Brock's moveset at the same time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted April 30, 2003 To Tim Cooke: "Benoit and Angle is far from Flair/Steamboat and far from greatness" I disagree. I think Benoit and Angle are greatness. Their matches have lots of great counters, a story from previous matches, great workrate, and for the last bit great heat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted April 30, 2003 They do have counters, but they are never sold. Selling is so key. I have seen Benoit sell so awesome in his prime and before the smackdown spot fu era. Work rate is a relative term. The SAT's have great work rate, but they have horrible matches that make no sense. Give me selling, logical transitions, and great pysch over "work rate." I enjoyed the Rumble match, but that is all due to the little things Benoit did like teasing a great build to the sharpshooter, which when he finally got on, popped the crowd big time. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JN News 0 Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Sadly, I don't think so. The problem is both guys are generally regarded as second-tier superstars while Flair and Steamboat were pretty much the big attraction back in 89. And really, I'd say Rock/Austin would be more thought of as this generation's Flair/Steamboat. I would have to disagree about Rock/Austin being billed as the 2nd comming of Flair/Steamboat. If not Angle/Benoit, I would have to say that Rock/HHH would fit the bill. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted April 30, 2003 I've seen better selling myself as well but you have to remember that they're wrestling in the WWE. It's unfair to a degree to compare them to Japan. They have to wrestle the WWE style. Benoit said when he first went into the WWE something like he was looking forward to wrestling the WWE style. I don't think it can be denied that Benoit Angle is greatness if you compare their work solely to their immediate peers. I agree with most of the matches you listed on average being better than Benoit vs Angle. Just that the difference isn't really that wide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted April 30, 2003 I kinda Agree...Rock/Austin pretty much stuck to the same Fourmula...Brawling. While Rock/HHH which has gone from 1997-2001 has been done with SO many different gimmicks and storylines...They have grown as wrestlers facing each other...From Lowly Jobbers to High Profile Main events... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Report post Posted May 1, 2003 I would have to disagree about Rock/Austin being billed as the 2nd comming of Flair/Steamboat. If not Angle/Benoit, I would have to say that Rock/HHH would fit the bill. Rock/HHH may have the history behind it, but it doesn't have the quality. I kinda Agree...Rock/Austin pretty much stuck to the same Fourmula...Brawling. While Rock/HHH which has gone from 1997-2001 has been done with SO many different gimmicks and storylines...They have grown as wrestlers facing each other...From Lowly Jobbers to High Profile Main events... Rock/HHH was nothing but brawling, as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted May 1, 2003 So like what North American series of matches would you place above Steamboat-Flair if any? I'm merely curious if you're calling the series overrated because it gets a whole lot of "World's Greatest Matches" press instead of "NWA/WWF Greatest Matches" press or if just you think the whole thing sucks. Awesome/Tanaka I enjoyed, as I did RVD/Lynn, but I wouldn't try to put it over Steamboat/Flair just due to the nature of each respective feud. Awesome/Tanaka in some way was better, but in other ways it wasn't. Ditto RVD/Lynn. Those would probably be better in comparison to Benoit/Angle than Steamboat/Flair because they followed the same model. Austin/Hart, I'd say, was better. But did they have the same length of time together as Steamboat/Flair did? It was under a year, so I dunno. But it certainly had more influence (made Austin, led to Austin vs. McMahon), and IMO better wrestling than Steamboat/Flair. I think it's overrated because I hear people talking about how great these matches are and how they're 5 stars and whatnot, then I watch them and it's like "yeah, that's a let down". Benoit/Angle frustrates me. I love a lot of their matches because they do a lot of neat stuff, but then what? Their matches are like "let's take what we did at WM 17, and do MORE of it". There was no real evolution until Angle finally got a clue and put the hooks in on the ankle lock at the Rumble Match. 95% of what they did was just to see how many ways they could reverse each others moves rather than IMPROVE upon each move (ala the ankle lock). These two scientific wizards couldn't use anything other than a crossface and ankle lock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Benoit/Angle frustrates me. I love a lot of their matches because they do a lot of neat stuff, but then what? Their matches are like "let's take what we did at WM 17, and do MORE of it". There was no real evolution until Angle finally got a clue and put the hooks in on the ankle lock at the Rumble Match. 95% of what they did was just to see how many ways they could reverse each others moves rather than IMPROVE upon each move (ala the ankle lock). These two scientific wizards couldn't use anything other than a crossface and ankle lock. Couldn't have said it better myself, RRR. When people starting masturbating all over their Unforgiven match, I found myself asking why since it was just WM 17 Revisited. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted May 1, 2003 It's true Angle and Benoit were only putting on anglelocks and crossfaces but it's not their fault. These are the ONLY moves the fans buy as submissions. If Benoit were to put on a cross armbreaker or fujiwar armbar the move would be met with complete silence.(Benoit actually said on the Byte This Show that different submissions were of the things that could have made the match better) The only other submission manuever that has a chance of getting over now is the triangle choke.Different submissions would be nice but in the WWE style is it even possable or even allowed? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted May 1, 2003 In a feud where both men are heralded as the two best technical/submission wrestlers in the game? HELL YA! Had they tried and been successful in getting other submission moves over it would have added greatly to the legacy of the feud... but they didn't... and it remains being a 'can you top this' things with no real depth or development. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted May 1, 2003 What's needed now is for Angle and Benoit to become more dominant in their matches. With the limited clean wins that they get they only have opportunity to put over their primary submission holds. Once Angle and Benoit are winning more bouts they'll have more of a chance to put new submissions over. Hopefully, it'll happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dmann2000 Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Taking what RRR said, I rewatched the Flair/Steamboat match from Wrestle War. I can kind of see where you're coming from. Basically they trade headlocks, armbars, hammerlocks, suplexes and chops. At the same time though, they do those moves so well, and the context in which they do them and why they do them is so good. Now then, I won't comment on RRR's preference to the stuff from Japan he's seen as I haven't seen. I probably should, allow my horizons to be expanded. On my scale, yes I give it ***** for all the things that go into it. It's not a definitive scale and take whatever worth from it you like. I don't try and argue star ratings (and I'm not saying RRR was). It's all subjective, that's all I'll say on the matter. (For the record Angle/Benoit from Rumble 03 made me jump out of my seat for real. I haven't done that in a long time. That alone rates it ***** for me). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Lord of The Curry Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Steamboat/Flair from WrestleWars 89 was a letdown to me, mainly because of the match building up to the double-chickenwing spot and then Flair making it the ropes in .0004 seconds and killing the hot crowd. I also found Flairs selling in that to be a little suspect but my main beef lies with the aforementioned spot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Tim Cooke Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Benoit/Angle needed a clear focus. The WEEEE wouldn't give them one. Benoit usually is able to work on something but he was with Angle who is the leader is spotastic WEEEE style work. The whole series has problems. As for US matches better than the Flair/Steamboat series, the Flair/Windham series of 3 matches and 1 impromtu TV match that was 15 minutes is at the same level that Flair/Steamboat is at. If you want to look at US wrestlers overall, 6/11/76 Terry Funk v Jumbo Tsuruta was as good as was 6/11/77 Harley Race vs Jumbo Tsuruta. Flair/Steamboat at 4/2/89 was the peak of the NWA Style. Yet, stylistically, 6/11/76 Funk/Tsuruta was right with it. And 2 months later in 1989, Tsuruta and Tenyru blew what Flair and Steamboat were doing out of the water. Oh, and the MX/Fantastics series was better than Flair/Steamboat though tag matches are much different than singles matches. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
