what tom pritchard said at a recent talent seminar

[Guest brotheryossinomark]

A few months ago I was at a talent seminar hosted by dr. tom. Anyway He seemed dead set on telling indy guys that we need to basically stop doing any cool highspots and set our work rate back to the style they used the early 80's. He wouldn't name names but he said that indy workers (on the east coast especially) are trying to get themselves over by trying to see who can hit each other the hardest and not by "working".

 

First of all when you are on the indy scene the only why you get over is by your ability to (and I'll be honest) due amazing things. case in point red, lowki, aj styles the list goes on. If he expects us to work "new york" style in front of a smart indy crowd we might not work there again.

 

Second, Dr. tom take a look at roh and tna. They are not trying to halt progress: they are revolutionizing by moving a head with the times not regressing to the days of 20 minute job matches with rene goulet. The excuses presented by dr tom was that the wwe lost to much talent due to neck injuries. I think the style is not what caused the injuries rather the increase of green "crowbars" like nathan jones (sorry to use him as a whipping boy but it is true) and goldberg (no sorry to him-fuck him) who kill any decent worker that tries to get them over.

[Mecha Mummy 0]

Is this the same TNA that showcased the X-Division, a division heavily relying on spotfests, for the first few months of its existance?

[Guest alkeiper]

First of all when you are on the indy scene the only why you get over is by your ability to (and I'll be honest) due amazing things. case in point red, lowki, aj styles the list goes on. If he expects us to work "new york" style in front of a smart indy crowd we might not work there again.

 

Perhaps, but when you're scouted by a WWE agent, they'll look to see how good your basics are. Indy crowds may shit on you, but there's little money in Indies anyway.

 

Second, Dr. tom take a look at roh and tna. They are not trying to halt progress: they are revolutionizing by moving a head with the times not regressing to the days of 20 minute job matches with rene goulet. The excuses presented by dr tom was that the wwe lost to much talent due to neck injuries. I think the style is not what caused the injuries rather the increase of green "crowbars" like nathan jones (sorry to use him as a whipping boy but it is true) and goldberg (no sorry to him-fuck him) who kill any decent worker that tries to get them over.

 

Its the style. Crappy workers have been around since the beginning of wrestling. Continuous high-spot matches are hurting the wrestlers. Just look at Sabu. Most guys are hurting themselves, without even making it in the business.

[Guest THE MIGHTY THOR]

First of all when you are on the indy scene the only why you get over is by your ability to (and I'll be honest) due amazing things. case in point red, lowki, aj styles the list goes on. If he expects us to work "new york" style in front of a smart indy crowd we might not work there again.

 

Perhaps, but when you're scouted by a WWE agent, they'll look to see how good your basics are. Indy crowds may shit on you, but there's little money in Indies anyway.

 

Second, Dr. tom take a look at roh and tna. They are not trying to halt progress: they are revolutionizing by moving a head with the times not regressing to the days of 20 minute job matches with rene goulet. The excuses presented by dr tom was that the wwe lost to much talent due to neck injuries. I think the style is not what caused the injuries rather the increase of green "crowbars" like nathan jones (sorry to use him as a whipping boy but it is true) and goldberg (no sorry to him-fuck him) who kill any decent worker that tries to get them over.

 

Its the style. Crappy workers have been around since the beginning of wrestling. Continuous high-spot matches are hurting the wrestlers. Just look at Sabu. Most guys are hurting themselves, without even making it in the business.

That's a bunch of crap, WWE agents only look for guys that are huge and have that hoss look in the ring, that's why they have bad workers like Nathan Jones, Batista, La Resistance and 3MW.

Dr. Tom is nothing more than a yes man to Vince MC Moron, hence the fact that he is got a job as an agent even though he wasn't that successful as a wrestlers.High risk wrestling style is not to be blame for injured wrestlers but the fact that they don't get enough time to heal and sometimes they have to wrestle sloppy careless fucks like Steiner or Goldberg are the 2 main causes for injury in WWE.

[Guest brotheryossinomark]

in no means am i suggesting high spot fests with no psycology. matches are built like a house- a good base with build up to a strong finish (lets think of the finish as the apex of a house).

and yes i do agree that bad workers come in all shapes and sizes

[Guest Heel In Peril]

First of all when you are on the indy scene the only why you get over is by your ability to (and I'll be honest) due amazing things. case in point red, lowki, aj styles the list goes on. If he expects us to work "new york" style in front of a smart indy crowd we might not work there again.

 

Second, Dr. tom take a look at roh and tna. They are not trying to halt progress: they are revolutionizing by moving a head with the times not regressing to the days of 20 minute job matches with rene goulet. The excuses presented by dr tom was that the wwe lost to much talent due to neck injuries. I think the style is not what caused the injuries rather the increase of green "crowbars" like nathan jones (sorry to use him as a whipping boy but it is true) and goldberg (no sorry to him-fuck him) who kill any decent worker that tries to get them over.

That's a very fine point you got yourself there, b-mark. Heh, b-mark almost sounds like a second rate mark. Sorry about that, but I think it's funny and I don't know how to pronounce your user-name. Hahaha. But if I can be serious for a minute, what Dr. Tom ought to be doing if he really wants to make a difference is explain his views, which I agree with in general, to the people at WWE, whomever it is you need to talk to in order to purposely get anything positive done around there. Because frankly, indy shows have to compete with WWE programming and event tickets. And whatever is on WWE television is what the mainstream is, unfortunately. To reply to alkeiper, most indy wrestlers can't afford to lose what jobs they can get in wrestling due to responsibilities as far as feeding their families, feeding themselves, or any other expenses which as you said are not comfortably compensated for by most of these promotions. So when it comes to Wrestler X choosing between working to please the paying audience and promoter who may not choose to use him next week if he doesn't get over tonight VS working at the miracle chance of getting picked up by a fed like WWE whose major interest is in hosses, 99% of them must conform. And personally, I don't blame them. Nor do I blame Dr. Tom for his speech, FYI. I just think it should be redirected. (This turned out way too long. My bad.)

[Guest My Eyebrow is on fire]

Typical Indy Match = Wrestler A does standing Shooting Star Press into opponent and steel railing. Wrestler B no sells, returns with 450 degree standing Shooting Star Press onto opponent and table. Wrestler A no sells and does top rope 450 degree Pumphandle Piledriver into flames.

 

It gets fucking OLD just watching people kill themselves. Highspots have a time and place, and an OCCASIONAL spotfest (like TLC) is appreciated. But suspension of disbelief is GONE if the no-selling gets as bad as it is now. Low Ki v.s. Samoa Joe from ROH last summer was the perfect combination of spots and mat wrestling. More matches need to follow that formula.

[Guest Heel In Peril]

Typical Indy Match = Wrestler A does standing Shooting Star Press into opponent and steel railing. Wrestler B no sells, returns with 450 degree standing Shooting Star Press onto opponent and table. Wrestler A no sells and does top rope 450 degree Pumphandle Piledriver into flames.

 

It gets fucking OLD just watching people kill themselves. Highspots have a time and place, and an OCCASIONAL spotfest (like TLC) is appreciated. But suspension of disbelief is GONE if the no-selling gets as bad as it is now. Low Ki v.s. Samoa Joe from ROH last summer was the perfect combination of spots and mat wrestling. More matches need to follow that formula.

Agreed.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

The excuses presented by dr tom was that the wwe lost to much talent due to neck injuries. I think the style is not what caused the injuries rather the increase of green "crowbars" like nathan jones (sorry to use him as a whipping boy but it is true) and goldberg (no sorry to him-fuck him) who kill any decent worker that tries to get them over.

Dead wrong.

 

These are small chronic injuries that build up over time and cause breakdowns...these aren't one-time, blunt force injuries that would be caused by a green or careless worker. It's Benoit diving on his head 200 times a year after straining on his neck for 3 germans in a row.

[Maztinho 0]

I think that the injurys are a mixture of both wear and tear and one little bad bump.

 

What I don't get is why German Suplexes are allowed when Piledrivers aren't, in a standard piledriver you can get your arms to sort of block the impact whereas the German is flush on the base of your neck, unless it's a early released version where it's just a flying back bump.

[Guest Heel In Peril]

The excuses presented by dr tom was that the wwe lost to much talent due to neck injuries.  I think the style is not what caused the injuries rather the increase of green "crowbars" like nathan jones (sorry to use him as a whipping boy but it is true) and goldberg (no sorry to him-fuck him) who kill any decent worker that tries to get them over.

Dead wrong.

 

These are small chronic injuries that build up over time and cause breakdowns...these aren't one-time, blunt force injuries that would be caused by a green or careless worker. It's Benoit diving on his head 200 times a year after straining on his neck for 3 germans in a row.

You both have great points. I actually hadn't really thought of yours, Spicy. Not bad. However, Spicy, most of the time, the injuries that are most disappointing and frustrating are not ones that Benoit or Mick Foley or somebody might wear in time through powerful performances and such, but usually by those aforementioned green hosses that blow something significant, usually. Most fans, especially smarks, acknowledge that pro wrestlers go through some real pain during, as well as resulting from, their careers. When Kurt Angle is out for a few months to a year due to all the stress he's put on his body, the fans don't necessarily blame him for that. Because basically, that's good shit! NOT the injury, but the reason. When Goldberg kicks Bret Hart in the head and gives him his FIRST concussion of the match, well where's the honor in that? You see what I'm saying?

[Guest brotheryossinomark]

parity is the word when thinking of a good match. their needs to be a little of this and a little of that and there needs to build. Btw I hope nobody thinks that I am trying to put myself over as some know it all what a good match is. I'm just happen to be like everyone else on this board who is also a worker and has an opinion and i try to stay humble. besides what i said in the first sentence on what i think makes a great match I ask my self If i was in the crowd what type of match would i want to see.

[Guest The Tino Standard]

Spot-to-spot matches are entertaining once in a while, but guys need to know how to execute the basics. You don't run without learning how to walk first.

 

Another important thing that I think WWE is COMPLETELY overlooking is psychology. They've been saying for the last year how they want wrestlers to "slow down" and "tell a story," yet I'd say maybe 5-10% of the active roster can incorporate psychology into a match successfully.

 

The result is that we're getting a whole lot of slowing down and no coherency to matches. The results have been brutal. If they want better match with fewer spots, they should start emphasizing the importance of timing and ring psychology.

 

Anybody in TitanTowers have a phone number for Ricky Steamboat?

[Guest Jack Potts]

I would have to agree with The Mighty Thor's contention that lack of time to heal contributes to the problem, but I would also tend to believe that conditioning and poor stretching contributes to some of the injuries.

 

Triple H, Batista, Kevin Nash, Billy Gunn, and Mark Henry aren't known for their high spots, but arguably, their significant muscle mass and lack of flexibility contributed to their problems.

 

Except for Edge, I can't think of one current worker who has been placed on the DL for neck surgery whose use of high-flying moves was directly responsible for their condition.

 

Think about it:

 

Kurt Angle- wear and tear that aggravated an existing condition from his amateur days.

 

Lita- Yes, it was a high-flying move, a hurricanrana I believe, but it was on a stuntperson, not a trained wrestler, while filming Dark Angel.

 

Rhyno- Hit a ring post wrong on a missed Gore, didn't he?

 

Hardcore Holly- Uncooperative on a powerbomb attempt from Brock Lesnar.

 

Scotty Too Hotty- I'm not sure, but although he's a cruiserweight, he's certainly not known for his high spots.

 

Stone Cold- His problems stem from a botched piledriver, but that's a pretty old school move, isn't it.

 

If I missed any, please feel free to let me know, or correct me if I'm off-base in this assessment.

 

I think Dr. Tom's is accurate if he is arguing that continued high-spots will probably shorten your career. But personally I believe the focus on size and poor flexibility are also significant contributors to some of their injury woes. Jericho, Tajiri, Lance Storm, RVD, and Flair are incredibly durable guys with great cardio training, whose more natural builds ehances their in-ring durability and longevity.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

However, Spicy, most of the time, the injuries that are most disappointing and frustrating are not ones that Benoit or Mick Foley or somebody might wear in time through powerful performances and such, but usually by those aforementioned green hosses that blow something significant, usually.

 

When Goldberg kicks Bret Hart in the head and gives him his FIRST concussion of the match, well where's the honor in that? You see what I'm saying?

I agree. I just think more injuries are the chronic type. Though dumbasses like Big Show and big green morons throwing people around never help. And that would probably be stopped if WWE would properly build, push, and elevate good, young wrestlers.

[Guest Heel In Peril]

Agreed, Spicy.

 

And excellent thought, JP!

[Maztinho 0]

Tino's right that alot of wrestling is lacking psychology in the matches. It's pretty much brawling, then one guy hits one of his signature moves, then maybe a rest hold then the other guy hits his signature moves.

 

Then a finisher fake in longer matches then a break down of some sort and one guy hits his finisher.

 

What happened to someone picking a body part and working it over like there was no tomorrow? Flair does it sort of but it's like work over the leg for like 2 minutes instead of like 15-20 and then slap on the Figure Four.

[Guest godthedog]

Tino's right that alot of wrestling is lacking psychology in the matches. It's pretty much brawling, then one guy hits one of his signature moves, then maybe a rest hold then the other guy hits his signature moves.

 

Then a finisher fake in longer matches then a break down of some sort and one guy hits his finisher.

 

What happened to someone picking a body part and working it over like there was no tomorrow? Flair does it sort of but it's like work over the leg for like 2 minutes instead of like 15-20 and then slap on the Figure Four.

flair rarely worked on it for that long straight. usually he waited till fairly late in the match for an opportunity. bret made a point about this in his shoot interview, how you'd be working his arm for 10 minutes and then suddenly he'd start on the leg. (but bret's just as guilty of it.)

 

i think jericho did a pretty damn good job of staying on nash's knee last night. but then nash had to turn around & basically no-sell it for the last 3 minutes. you can have a great match without body part psychology. in order to have a "body part psychology" match even work, you need to have guys that know how to do long-term selling properly. i've been saying for years that this is the major problem with the wwf style: too many short matches condition the wrestlers to forget about long-term selling. it's not just the nuances of selling a body part, it's selling the fatigue of a match & wrestling in a different way 5 minutes after taking a powerbomb. the major flaw with almost every wwf match since probably 1998 (even some of the great ones) is that they're wrestling the last 5 minutes of a match basically the same way they wrestled the first 5 minutes. they need long-term selling first, then they can worry about working body parts and such. cause otherwise you end up with train wrecks like benoit/rvd.

[Guest Lil Naitch]

Hardcore Holly- Uncooperative on a powerbomb attempt from Brock Lesnar.

Actually, I think it was that Brock had the Flu and screwed up the powerbomb slightly.

 

And I think that the workers should just be trying to be protecting each other as much as they can.

[Guest NoSelfWorth]

So Dr Tom bashed Indy guys for being too reckless. Is this the same Dr Tom who works for WWE ? The company that told their wrestlers to slow down, take less risks, and tell a story in the ring, and then five minutes later booked a Ladder match between two teams for no reason ?

[Guest ViciousFish]

So Dr Tom bashed Indy guys for being too reckless. Is this the same Dr Tom who works for WWE ? The company that told their wrestlers to slow down, take less risks, and tell a story in the ring, and then five minutes later booked a Ladder match between two teams for no reason ?

Oh come on...there's a reason....Los Guerreros stole the belts and then the medals. That's more than enough reason.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah you're right there is no reason.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Please stop calling the guy Dr Tom.