Gracie vs Shamrock

[Guest newblood03]

who won that match? royce id imagine he looks a helluva alot bwetter than shamrock.

[Guest Army Eye]

Royce won their first match very quickly.

 

The second match was a draw, Shamrock got on top and basically held on for dear life. Nothing really happened.

[Guest Youth N Asia]

Shammy could never beat Gracie...and I don't remember what the deal was, but in his shoot interview he had an excuse for losing...always has an excuse.

 

I loved UFC 3...Shamrock and Gracie are pretty much locks for the finals. They both win their first matches. But then everyone in the show seems to get injured and a friggin sub wins the whole thing.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

In his PPV he talks so much shit about Gracie, as in he got the best of him and he "choked out that son of a bitch" and ruined his career. Of course, he's never beaten him once, but what else would you expect from a guy with no class like Shamrock? By the way, I sure as hell didn't order that PPV, because even in my "mark" days I knew better than to pay for a "glorious look at Shamrock's career".

 

Couldn't we just contain all this crap together, and post this in DH's thread?

[Guest Youth N Asia]

This forum doesn't get much use anyway...another thread won't hurt

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I suppose you're right, but I still have a feeling that there are plenty of people here who still believe the myth that "Ken Shamrock is the greatest 'extreme fighter' ever!" Poor, misguided souls.

 

Might as well put it in here; is King of the Cage another Toughman ripoff? In other words, is it as shitty as it looks?

[Guest razazteca]

Shamrock always gets injuried by breaking his hand or gets tired fast by punching too much.

 

In the 1st match from UFC 1, Shamrock tried to overpower Royce which ended with them going to the ground which Royce won by submission.

[Guest Jimmy Saint]

Might as well put it in here; is King of the Cage another Toughman ripoff? In other words, is it as shitty as it looks?

Its well below Pride and UFC to be blunt in presentation and match quality and the early shows are pretty piss poor. Saying that though so were the early Prides and UFC's.

 

Theres alot of good fighters who have come through there or fought in KOTC though. Ricco Rodriguez, Quinton Jackson, Guy Mezger, Akira Shoji, Duane 'Bang' Ludwig, Yves Edwards, Marvin Eastman, Jerry Bohlander....

 

Its like a minor league where you can watch guys like Bang who become stars with every fight building themselves up for the big time.

 

You can get the first 10 KOTC events on DVD for real cheap now like $20 for all ten in a boxset or something at alot of places online so its worth a look if you have every Pride and UFC you want. The Best Fights DVD is well worth checking.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

A Rogers Video over here carries 2 KOTC dvds (including the 'best of') and I see a ton of em over at Square1. It's basically the ECW of MMA as it has some 'stars' in it, and it showcases a lot of young talent, but the production values and just general product is less than the big 2 (well, at least to Pride )

 

The Ultimate Shamrock tape fucking sucks. I mean, I'm a Gracie mark so my opinion is probably biased, but still... WTF did Ken do in the UFC other than 'look' like a fighter? The bitch never even won a tournament. Eugh.

 

Oh, and the fight itself was a draw, simply because neither man tried to win it. BJJ is more of a reactionary-type fighting style and when your opponent doesn't give you anything to react to, then nothing will happen.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I saw it for free on Directv one time(I would never pay for that shit), and it was annoying to see Ken Shamrock both in and out of the ring. All he ever does is go on about how great he is, but than he sucks in the ring making himself look like an idiot.

 

Even if you're a Gracie mark, can't you admit that the man wouldn't be nearly as much of a legend if the fighters during his time weren't so terrible and unprepared? He's boring to boot.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Considering that it was Gracie who changed the landscape of fighting by teaching those terrible and unprepared fighters that there's more to fighting than kicks and punches, I think the point of "he was only good cause others sucked" is, well, pointless.

 

Would Gracie fare well in todays MMA? No, of course not. Any one-style fighter would lose today. But that shouldn't lessen his accomplishments 10 years ago. He's only boring when his opponent isn't active.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Admittedly, all I've seen of him are his fights against those unprepared fighters, Shamrock, and Sakuraba, the latter being a damned good fight. His style of just choking people out has always seemed boring to me personally though.

 

I understand what you're saying about teaching those terrible "fighters" how to fight, but regardless, strength of competition is a big factor.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

But who *was* that good in 1993?

[LooseCannon25 0]

Gracie was the man back in the days starting in '93' because all of the fighters in those days were one dimensional. Look at a guy like Severn, he was a wrestler and only a wrestler. Couldn't strike for shit. And UFC in the beginning years just seemed like a bunch of jobbers in the MMA world. If ROyce would get in the ring now with these fighters who are crosstrained i dont htink he would fair too well at all.

 

He was good for his time, but his time has long passed by

[Guest TheMadmanGreg]

You can see that today's fighters have a better grasp of the octagon when Tank and Shamrock come back and get owned. It's a shame. I liked Shammy-shams's fighting style. Oh, well. Franky Shammy-shams still whooped that friggin Ortiz.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Royce would do better in the octagon than any 'star' from the past.

 

I really don't see the relevancy in saying "He was good then cause the competition sucked" given that the sport was just beginning.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Well Frank Shamrock was a truly great fighter, unlike Ken who just LOOKED like a truly great fighter.

[Guest Army Eye]

Gracie was the man back in the days starting in '93' because all of the fighters in those days were one dimensional. Look at a guy like Severn, he was a wrestler and only a wrestler. Couldn't strike for shit. And UFC in the beginning years just seemed like a bunch of jobbers in the MMA world. If ROyce would get in the ring now with these fighters who are crosstrained i dont htink he would fair too well at all.

Yeah.. all fighters were one dimensional then, and Royce was the best of them. He was dominant. Severn was not a 'jobber' or anything like that, he won two UFC tourneys and is a MMA HOFer (if there was such a thing). Royce was not beating jobbers, he was beating the best of the competition at the time. The fighters you see today did not exist in any form then. Expecting a fighter to transcend the era he fought in is asking a little much. That's like saying Silva and Fedor are frauds because fighters 10 years from now would be able to kick their ass.

[LooseCannon25 0]

No, i wanst calling Severn or Shamrock a jobber.,......I meant that in the tournament you had guys like John Hess, Andy Anderson, Paul Varlens, Emmanuel Yarborough, Keith Hackney, Paul Herrera, Macias.....those guys were not very good MMA fighters back then. In todays era or even in their own era the bottom line is they were scrubs off the street.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Gracie fought AND WON 3 tournaments. Two 3 rounders and a 4 rounder. *No one* has done that.

 

Art Jem was 30-5 when fighting Royce and was on a 16 fight win streak. Was he a top rated boxer? No. Was he a scrub off the street? No. The same goes for all the fighters in the early days - they were good in what they did, but when it came to MMA they sucked. Gracie was good at what he did, and when it came to MMA he ruled. Everyone had to learn BJJ after that, that's how the sport got better, that's how it evolved.

 

Hell, he went 90 minutes with Sakuraba - a 'modern' fighter at a time - who has since been passed by... AND THAT'S JUST IN 3 YEARS! Such is the evolution of MMA.

[Guest TheMadmanGreg]

But, I've seen some of Gracie's current fighting... he's truly off his game. I'd bet Frankie Shammy-shams or Ortiz could take him easy.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Ortiz would have a lil difficulty with Gracie, but would win in the end. Frank would take him pretty easily though.

[Guest Lei Tong]

Actually, I'd say Ortiz would have an easier time, if only because of size and stylistically, he matches up better with Gracie.

 

Also, some of the previously mentioned fighters who are called suckers were a bit more decent than many people give them credit for: Paul Herrera is an All American wrestler who recently beat highly Decorated BJJ blackbelt Joe Moreira; Anthony Macias was the king of the IFC before Vladimir Matyushenko came onto the scene; etc.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I look at Tito like a Dan Severn - but with better striking - but that striking isn't good enough to knock out Royce or to prevent a takedown. Sure, Tito's GnP is FAAAAR more advanced than Severns, but I think Gracie would still give him trouble on the ground - an arm here, a wrist there - he'd give Tito something to worry about.

 

Frank is just more inventive on the ground and is a very cerebral fighter - he'd have the match won before it even started.

[Guest Lei Tong]

Well for all intents and purposes, Elvis Sinosic is an improved Royce Gracie- lanky, good with submissions, not very strong, but he has betetr stand-up than Royce. See the difference in how Tito beat Elvis compared to how Frank and others beat him: Elvis hung on strong and kept them on their toes; Tito ran through him in three minutes.

 

Royce, regardless of how past it he is, is a tough guy to beat with grappling skills, and Frank, although one of the most dynamic submission fighters in MMA history, is not going to easily sub Royce. So then, it comes down to who can hurt Royce more with striking. And for as far as Frank's stand-up has come, I don't think he can put out as much damage as Tito can with his G&P.

 

As far as comparing Tito to Severn, aside from wrestling base, I don't see it. Tito's takedowns are much better overall than Severn (the Beast often times actually dragged his opponents to mount him instead of taking themdown), his striking, ground and stadning, is much better as well. Also, Tito has some udnerutilized submission skills (he placed 3rd in the world at his weigh tin Abu Dhabi, and would have placed 3rd or 4th in the Openweight divison had he not injured himself).

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Sinosic is a better ground fighter than Royce? I dunno about that. I haven't seen a full match from him outside the UFC (highlight video not included), but I can't imagine him being better. And that's what Tito vs. Royce would be, a ground fight.

 

My basis for comparison between Severn and Tito was regarding the wrestling, which Severn is much more decorated at than Tito, of course there are better fighters to compare Tito with, but none have faced Royce (well, I guess you could say Kimo).

 

Tito has good-very good ground and pound, but I wouldn't say excellent (I probably would have said excellent before I saw Fedor - he redefined the term ). Tito wouldn't be able to just ram Royce up against the fence and pound away, Royce knows how to use the cage to his advantage, and I can't see Tito approaching the fight any differently. Again, I'm not saying that Royce would win, I'm just saying he'd give Tito some trouble.

 

Maybe I just have a high opinion on Frank, but I think he'd come in with a game plan vs. Royce. I remember reading about Frank vs. Tito and how Frank was doing everything to the second and had the whole match mapped out. I see Frank vs. Royce like that. Cept Royce isn't as strong as Tito.

[Guest Lei Tong]

Royce isn't among even the 10 best at his weight on the ground anymore. His greatest strength is his patience and durability from below, but this is no longer 1994, and many guys have passed him up in grappling (in fact, he isn't even considered amongst the best in his family, as he was chosen due to the fact that if he could win, than Rickson, Renzo, Ralph & the rest could as well) . Yes, going 1 1/2 hours with Sak is impressive, but at the same time, Sak is probably one of the better match-ups for Royce at MW, as opposed to hybrid strikers like Anderson Silva and world class grapplers like Egan Inoue.

 

In the end, I don't see what Royce has to offer that Tito hasn't seen before. And even if he tried to use the cage to his advantage, I think his small size and little strength would get him stuffed BADLY.

 

Also, while Fedor does have arguably the most damaging G&P in the in the business (although P4P Norifumi Yamamoto is slightly better), in terms of positioning and control, he's not quite on the level of an Ortiz or Hughes.

 

As far as Frank would do versus Royce, it's hard to say it'd be the same as it was against Tito. Two VERY different guys. Whereas Tito was relying mostly on raw skill power and aggression, Royce relies on savy, intelligence and toughness (much like Elvis).

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I thought Royce was chosen cause he was so small and that would sell BJJ more than had Rickson competed. In anycase, I think you're right, maybe I was overestimating Royces ground skills and underestimating Titos. I was watching a lil bit of Tito in Abu Dahbi and he impressed me. I think I might be too caught up in Chuckamania Who'd you put up over Royce on the ground?

 

I *hate* Matt Hughes GnP, actually I hate GnP in general, but Fedor's punches are so powerful and precise that it actually makes the fight entertaining.

[Guest Lei Tong]

Yeah, G&P tends to turn a lot of people off, but it's effective none the less.

 

Tito did indeed do well in ADCC, going 5-2 with 3 submissions (tied for most that year, IIRC)submittingMltiple time European Sambo Champion Rostyslav Borysenko; Submitted 3 time All American Mke Van Arsdale; Lost to current Abu Dhabi kingpin Ricardo Arona via Advantage;Defeated UFC WW Champ (although he wrestled at 195 in ADCC) Matt Hughes via points; Choked out Shooto's Rumina Sato; defeted BJJ Champion Rodrigo Medeiros; and finally lost to Renzo Gracie student Sean Alvarez via points.

 

As far as who's better than Royce on the ground... quite a few at his size. Royce was much better suited to NHB style rules, having no real accomplishments in pure grappling tournaments. At MW alone, there are guys like Dave Terrell, Saulo Ribeiro, Ricardo Almeida, Ricardo Liborio, Ricardo Liborio, Egan Inoue, Antonio Shcembri, etc.

 

Also, if you really liek Fedro's G&P, you should check out some SHooto stuff with "Kid" Yamamoto, who coincidentally, may come to UFC in the future (hopefully after defeating Shooto 143-lbs. kingpin Alexandre "Pequeno" Noguiera).