Koji Kanemoto opinion thread

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

What are your opinions on him as a worker? Personnally I like him and think he is damn good, although sometimes he seems a little flawed with his mental work.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Koji Kanemoto has that Mutoh-like tendency to mail it in some of the times. However, when he's motivated, there are few who are better.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I don't think Kanemoto "mails it in." His work isn't what I'd call lazy, just nonsensical due to his obsesion with getting his character over and neglecting virtually every other aspect of telling a story in the ring. He seems to have no idea of how to transition, and he sells whenever he feels like it. I've seen him get dumped on his dome only to come back like nothing happened too many times to call him a competent worker. His tendancy to drag other workers, even guys like Ohtani and Lyger, into his realm of nuttiness just makes him all the more annoying to watch in retrospect.

 

I'd be interested to know where the "few are better" comment comes from. None of his matches in the mid to late ninties were pimped heavilly, aside from BOTSJ '97 vs. Samurai, and that's a heavilly flawed match. The recent NOAH tags have received some hype, but not really serious MOTYC hype that I can tell. I'd say that the overhype of the Samy match from Meltzer and others has convinced people that Koji was a great worker, because I can't see any other reason for people to reach a wacky conclusion like that.

[Guest Black Tiger]

You HAD to know I was going to chime in on this one

 

 

Don't listen to then Jericho, KANEMOTO RULES!

 

He gets some flak for his no-selling, but damn if he doesn't use it to get his character over. My man DANDY~! said it best when he said that few are better.

 

The BOSJ 1997 finals with Samurai is probably his most pimped match, but there are lots of great matches involving Kanemoto. (I'm not good with dates so when I don't know the date I'll just give the tape/show it's on)

 

Kanemoto vs Lyger from the '97 BOSJ semi Finals

Kanemoto vs Lyger from Oct of 1997 (NJPW Air Force Wars J)

Kanemoto vs Lyger from 1/4/96

Kanemoto vs Bas Rutten (NJPW 10/26/02 PPV)

Kanemoto vs Shinjiro Ohtani (Spring '98, on History of Junior heavy)

Kanemoto vs AKIRA (3/23/03)

Kanemoto/Wagner vs Ohtani/Takaiwa (8/8/98)

Kanemoto/Tanaka vs Ohtani/Takaiwa (6/25/00)

Kanemoto/Tanaka vs Lyger/Makabe (NJPW SXW TV 10/9/00)

Kanemoto vs Chris Benoit (9/25/95)

Edited June 10, 2003 by Black Tiger

[Guest TheGame2705]

I have issues with no-selling as Misawa and Hawk are probably two wrestlers who I hate immensely due to their selling issues but I've enjoyed Kanemoto. I haven't seen much so I can't really go into detail but he atleast entertains me.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Game, your Misawa hate still baffels me, especially if Kanemoto "entertains" in comparison. But I guess that's a tired subject from a tired thread.

 

"He gets some flak for his no-selling, but damn if he doesn't use it to get his character over. My man DANDY~! said it best when he said that few are better."

 

If it gets his character over at the expense of every big match he's in, what good does that say about his ability? If, against the IWGP champ, he's still trying to hammer down the fact that he's an asshole instead of taking the match somewhere, why is he bothering? The "getting his character over" excuse is a cop-out, considering Liger, Benoit, Guererro, Ohtani and other peers of Koji were able to play compelling characters while keeping the match on track and putting together a compelling storyline.

 

"The BOSJ 1997 finals with Samurai is probably his most pimped match, but there are lots of great matches involving Kanemoto. (I'm not good with dates so when I don't know the date I'll just give the tape/show it's on)

 

Kanemoto vs Lyger from the '97 BOSJ Finals

Kanemoto vs Lyger from Oct of 1997 (NJPW Air Force Wars J)"

 

Haven't seen, to my knowledge. I have a Lyger/Kanemoto match on a comp but there's no date. It's the infamous "Koji forgets to sell the Top Rope Fisherman's Buster" match. If that's either of these two, well, you know my opinion on it.

 

"Kanemoto vs Lyger from 1/4/96"

 

I haven't seen this in a few months, but what I remember is enough to tell me that this isn't the match you want to prove that Koji was/is a good worker. Koji hit his spots at random intervals with no real build (other than the usual Pointless Juniors Matwork) making the match feel aimless for pretty much the entire durration. He keeps trying (and missing) his Moonsault varriations without trying to do anything differently so that Lyger actually stays down for some of them. His no-selling is quite evident here also, as he shrugs off a boat load of offense including a top rope rana, plancha, and something like four fisherman's busters like he's absolutely fine. If he was interested in putting Lyger's moves over as possible match enders instead of "improving his character" the match might not have sucked. But he didn't, and the match sucked.

 

"Kanemoto vs Bas Rutten (NJPW 10/26/02 PPV)"

 

Haven't seen.

 

"Kanemoto vs Shinjiro Ohtani (Spring '98, on History of Junior heavy)"

 

Haven't seen.

 

"Kanemoto vs AKIRA (3/23/03)"

 

Haven't seen.

 

"Kanemoto/Wagner vs Ohtani/Takaiwa (8/8/98)"

 

Haven't seen. I have the Wagner/Kanemoto match from this year, though, which is actually one of the better Koji matches I've seen.

 

"Kanemoto/Tanaka vs Ohtani/Takaiwa (6/25/00)"

 

I don't really see this as proving anything, seeing as all four pretty much just did "their stuff" and not much else. Aside from the token dickishness from Ohtani and Kanemoto, the token powerness from Takaiwa and the token flippiness from Tanaka, they were all pretty much Just There. Maybe I need to re-watch this one.

 

"Kanemoto/Tanaka vs Lyger/Makabe (NJPW SXW TV 10/9/00)"

 

Haven't seen. I've heard it's superior to the previous tag, but it had better be if it's going to be proof of Kanemoto being capable.

 

"Kanemoto vs Chris Benoit (9/25/95)"

 

Haven't seen.

 

Obviously, I haven't seen as much Kanemoto as you, but I've seen the hyped stuff, and it left me feeling cold. The Samy/Kanemoto match was a spot-fest with impressive moves that meant nada, the Lyger matches all dissapointed, and the Doc. Wagner match, while solid, still had glimpses of Raging Idiot Kanemoto.

 

I might have to get back to you after watching some of these matches, but I don't think anything I see there is going to convince me that "few are better." I think there are a whole lot that are better, to be honest. Taking a look into the "Matches to Check Out" thread should be proof enough of that.

[Guest TheGame2705]

Well what I saw of Koji didn't have much no-selling but it did have a glaring blown spot. He just wasn't really offending me as much probably because I hear Misawa pimped to death and I'm usually disappointed with him.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Have you seen any Misawa besides 12/6/96? No offense, but your analysis of that match didn't give me a lot of faith in your ability to differentiate between trading blows and complete no-selling, so you using that term makes me skeptical.

[Guest TheGame2705]

I've also seen the RWTL Tag Final from 97 and now 6/3/94.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Any thoughts on 6/3/94?

 

tim

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

How in the bloody hell can somebody compare Misawa's selling to Hawk's?

 

Even at his worse in the later Akiyama and Kobashi matches, Misawa was still a better seller than fucking Hawk.

 

Have you seen the 95 Misawa/Taue matches or anything pre 97?

 

You said you seen 6/3/94, how the hell can you say his selling his bad in that?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I've also seen the RWTL Tag Final from 97 and now 6/3/94.

Well, unless I'm mistaken, Misawa didn't wrestle in the RWTL '97 finals.

 

I too, would like to know if you still think Misawa can't sell after watching 6/3/94.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

On Kanemoto:

 

His 9/95 match vs Benoit is all Benoit leading him through the way.

 

I have never seen Koji work a match at the level of Liger, Otani, Benoit, or Guerrero's NJPW best work.

 

On Misawa:

 

He sells. He sells awesome in the classics. Got to know the background.

 

Tim

[Guest Black Tiger]

I've also seen the RWTL Tag Final from 97 and now 6/3/94.

Well, unless I'm mistaken, Misawa didn't wrestle in the RWTL '97 finals.

 

I too, would like to know if you still think Misawa can't sell after watching 6/3/94.

Your mistaken Ricky.

 

Tghe 1997 RWTL Fianls were a rematch of the 1996 finals, only this time it ended with Taue pinning Akiyama

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Ah, there I go flubbing the AJPW history again. My bad.

[Guest two_tuff_toddy]

I haven't seen a lot from Kanemoto but I pretty much agree with the majority on this one. He is quite capable of being really good but his goofiness and no selling get really irritating at times. If wrestling a Lyger or Benoit it's usually enjoyable because they can lead him through the match but when wrestling an inferior worker its usually pretty bad.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

I just don't see anything really great out of Kanemoto at all. For every good match he has had with Liger or Benoit, they have both had better matches with others.

 

Liger:

 

v Kanemoto (2/16/97)

 

Better-

 

v Otani (3/17/96

v Guerrero (6/12/96)

 

Benoit:

 

v Kanemoto (9/25/95)

 

Better-

 

v Sasuke (4/16/94)

v Otani (3/20/96)

v Guerrero (6/11/96)

 

Granted, I haven't seen much Kanemoto since 1999, but the only match that sounds any decent is the one against Akira from this year, and that sounds like Akira stepping it up a lot.

 

Tim

[Guest TheGame2705]

I'm not going to give my thoughts on 6/3/94. All I will say is, I don't like Misawa's selling. I'm not going to even bother trying to argue anything so as to not rehash an old flamewar.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

There isn't nobody flaming.

 

All I will say is this:

 

I personally feel that Misawa at his best was a excellent seller, one of the best in fact. He wasn't dramatic or flashy, but he was very low key, and smart. In the 95 Carnie Finals, he managed to let Taue hit him with every one of his big moves in a losing effort, yet somehow managed to perfectly put them all over and keep their cred. That isn't an easy task by any means, and I have seen very few wrestlers pull it off successfully.

 

If anybody thinks his selling is bad in 6/3/94, they are obviously very confused, especially if they can't bring up examples. From now on, Game, if you can't support your statements and or not willing to discuss, don't bother bringing it up. Nobody will give your statements any consideration if you don't have any reasoning behind it.

 

Picky people don't like the corner rise, but they somehow forget that Kawada only lands a couple of kicks, before Misawa gets his arms up and starts blocking them, before getting up.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Why does Misawa work over the leg of Kawada and why does Kawada work over Misawa's neck when it has no part in the finish?

 

My best guess.

 

Tim

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Because it hurts.

 

Kawada kicks the crap out of people, why not try to weaken his biggest weapon?

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Because it hurts.

 

Kawada kicks the crap out of people, why not try to weaken his biggest weapon?

The leg work in 6/3/94 was a momentum killer. Misawa was getting his ass kicked bad, he was losing the match, and in act of desperation he attacked Kawada's injured leg. The spot was to show how far Kawada pushed Misawa, that the Man had to result to attacking an injury. Regardless of what idiots who have never seen 12/3/93 say, Misawa never lowered himself to attacking Kawada's injury though he was ripe for the picking. This is something that Kobashi, a much lower ranked wrestler, had to do against Kawada to get an edge.

 

The slowed down one sided section was thrown in there to play with the crowd, get them behind Kawada even more. Notice they quit the leg work section and move on after the huge "KA-WA-DA!" chant.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Just to clarify, I meant to say that was something THE GAME might have not liked. *I* know the whole psychology of 6/3.

 

Tim, who needs backstory understanding to fully interpret a match

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Just to clarify, I meant to say that was something THE GAME might have not liked.  *I* know the whole psychology of 6/3.

 

Tim, who needs backstory understanding to fully interpret a match

Oh, I know you know Tim.

 

My post was directed towards Agent of Oblivion, clarifying the purpose of the leg work in 6/3/94, because it really wasn't to literally prevent the kicks.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Gotcha.

 

Now GAME, please post your thoughts. Maybe we can be of some assistance in helping you understand the match. I know I initially needed help on 6/3/94.

 

Tim

[Guest TheGame2705]

Damn, about to eaten by the wolves again. I hadn't made any comments on 6/3/94 if you look back.

 

I'm not going to give my thoughts on 6/3/94.

All I will say is, I don't like Misawa's selling.

 

Sorry if you misinterpreted it as being me not liking it in 6/3/94 but I said I wouldn't give my thoughts on the match.