LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 But they ate it La Park, and he knew they would, so there goes that argument. He knew they would that's why he had a plan for those who choose to do good to be rewarded. If Adam and Eve hadn't done it someone would have. He knew Adam and Eve would sin.....he also knew that there would be good people. Nowhere does it say that Adam and Eve are damned. They sinned, but so do we. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Believing in God without faith goes against the purpose of ... well... belief. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 God basically fucked Man over for making the choice that God set up with the emotions/brain that god gave him... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 So what we have is "the possibility of turning around and being punished" and "the guarantee of turning around and being punished" there's no guarentee that we'll turn around and be punished. Sometimes we choose to do good. The whole deal behind the story of Jesus is that even the worst sinners can be saved because of Jesus' blood. Yes we'll sin, but Jesus' blood will keep it from damning us. It's a story of loss and redemption. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Juice Report post Posted June 18, 2003 So, creationists, why is man imperfect if God had the power to create a Utopian world? Because God has a sadistic sense of humor. Guess I'm more God-like then I thought! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 But they ate it La Park, and he knew they would, so there goes that argument. He knew they would that's why he had a plan for those who choose to do good to be rewarded. If Adam and Eve hadn't done it someone would have. He knew Adam and Eve would sin.....he also knew that there would be good people. Nowhere does it say that Adam and Eve are damned. They sinned, but so do we. If God knew they would sin, why bother with their temptation? Why not banish them in the first place? Why create them in the first place? Why not create a more perfect human afterwards to take their place? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 And when I say "Man" I mean in people in general. Just thought I'd clearify that. It's shorter than typing "men and women" and stuff like that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 God basically fucked Man over for making the choice that God set up with the emotions/brain that god gave him... but we're not screwed if we are saved. All you are saying does seem grim if there were not a way out. God may know what we're going to do, but that doesn't mean we know it. I don't mind that God knows what I'm going to do cause I still don't know it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 If God made us perfect we would be mindless and have no choice in the matter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 But God knows our choice already. So really, it IS guaranteed. So God created man, just so man could fail, just so man could be saved, just so man could worshop Jesus. This is sounding more and more like an amway scam every day.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 God set it up so we had the choice whether or not to fail or not and we chose to fail. Regardless we will sin, but that doesn't mean we'll fail. Not when we can be forgiven of those sins. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 God created Man so man could make the "journey" - I'm cool and fine with that... sending man to hell, however, for not doing what he wants you to do and making the wrong choices in that journey, is total bullshit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JMA Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Getting back to the original question... I am against organized religion. I think it creates a dangerous "group think" type mentality. Ironically, it's very similar to communism (ironic because they don't believe in ANY religion). I used to be a Christian myself. I stopped having faith when I learned YHWH (God) was actually VERY human indeed. Why worship a being that is fallable? Why call him God? But I still have faith. I have faith in humanity. I do not, however, have faith in any deity of any religion. I consider the entire Bible to be a great parable of sorts. Not to be taken literally. For example, if we followed Leviticus (a book of laws for the tribe of Levi) we would be pretty much SOL. I don't believe that by not following Christ you go to Hell. That's too juvenile for me. As is the concept that an omnipotent being would even create a Hell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 But to be forgiven you must do some things first... Like get a membership, pay some fees, kiss the ring, etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Perfection is impossible, so is Omnipotence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 If God made us perfect we would be mindless and have no choice in the matter. And? We could be blissfully happy AND spend eternity in Heaven. Where the fuck is the flaw in that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 To have happy you must have sad, chave. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 But to be forgiven you must do some things first... Like get a membership, pay some fees, kiss the ring, etc. No you don't. That's what man has said you had to do. God gave a pretty straight forward way of being forgiven and man made it legalistic like that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 You still have to believe in Jeeesus, and whatnot. That's still a clearly questionable step - one that the majority of this planet doesn't take - and god knows this too... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 To have happy you must have sad, chave. Only because God created us that way. If God DID create everything, it means that he is also responsible for all emotions. As a result he could easily switch the code to make us feel blissfully happy all the time, yeah? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Evil is a theological necessity. If you have nothing to compare bliss to, how do you know it's good, or bad, or if you're even happy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 I don't know what will happen to those who never even hear about it. They may be saved by default. Who knows. But for those it's been offered to they made the choice whether or not to follow it. Like you said before to have happiness you need sadness. To have good you need evil. God realized that. Knowing what we're going to do really has no effect on what we choose to do when you think about it. He knows if we'll change our minds 1000 times, but we'll still change our minds regardless of if he knows about it or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 But he still created the situations in which we choose, he created the tree, he created curiosity, and he also created the punishment for your (wrong) choice. It's manipulation. He didn't just say "well, here it is, do whatever". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 I'm just saying for the sake of this arguement, that creationism dictates that the human condition of "you must know pain to feel pleasure" is created by God for some random reason, possibly as a further temptation. Sorry, I don't get this whole temptation thing. Why create humans, then spend your whole life trying to fuck them over? Does HE do this with all animals? And plants? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 How could God know of G&E? Does that mean God knows of G&E and therefore has experienced it before? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 I would like to say at this point that I am not trying to ruin anyones belief, just having a friendly debate about the logistics of God. I trust that you are all secure enough in your faith or agnostism to not have your life ruined by this thread. Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Why God created man... Why God created himself... who knows? I like "it just is, now deal with it" as a life philosophy. Thinking about creationism and after-life, hurts your head after a while... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 You don't have to believe in God to debate the logistics of it... that's what I like about it. The Christian God seems like a dick... at least to me... Now Shiva, there's a dick... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 He created everything. Satan tempts you. Yes he created Satan, but maybe he did that to provide the evil since to have good you must have evil. Satan himself chose the path of evil He isn't forcing us to choose the evil we choose that. It's pretty straight forward choose evil and live with what comes with that choose good and live with what comes with that. If those who choose evil were rewarded the same as those who do good where's the justice in that? In having evil it needs it's own set of consequences. Since there needs to be evil for there to be good then why are we faulting him for making it that way? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted June 18, 2003 There's forcing people to choose evil, and then there is setting people up to choose evil. God set man up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
