Guest Spicy McHaggis Report post Posted June 18, 2003 if there is no evil then why is something good? Something is only "good" in contrast to evil. But that's not true. If you took away hate, you could still just feel indifferent, like, or love. Just like if you took away cold, hot would still exist. It would still burn or make you feel uncomfortable. Wrong. You are still working from the viewpoint of knowing what hate and what cold feels like. If there was only hot, then the burning feeling is normal... there is no reference point. It just "is". Philosophically, you MUST have evil to have good, and vice versa. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Speaking of which, who created evil anyways? Isaiah 45:7 "I make light and darkness, good and evil; I the Lord do these things." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest IDrinkRatsMilk Report post Posted June 18, 2003 AM, that technically makes you a witch. And you know what happens to witches. No, because they are all Christian beliefs. I'm Prespyterian but I also think that some parts of Mormonism are quite true as well. It doesnt make me a witch. Well, the strictest definition of witch is that you believe whatever sounds good and you think is true. In fact, if I remember it right, the word even loosely means "whatever works". So there you go. Predestination has a different meaning once you get out of the concepts of time and space, which God would be. Oddly enough, I picked up that concept from the Watchmen comic book. But to God, everything would be happening, in a way, all at once. If you believe in God, God created time and space, and so is not governed by them. Predestination is more of an act than a series of events, in that sense. And I'll tell you, I'm not a religious man, but if I was God, I'd set it up pretty much exactly how the Christians in this thread have said it is. Create beings which have a choice, but don't make myself obvious. Make it hard to see the truth in who I am, so only a very select few find me. Make sure they love me for me and not my money, so to speak. Only difference is, I wouldn't use eternal torture as an alternative. I'm more of a nice guy. But God has the right to be wrathful. God can be sadistic... he's God. Having said that, I don't believe in him, however. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Retro Rob Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Speaking of which, who created evil anyways? Isaiah 45:7 "I make light and darkness, good and evil; I the Lord do these things." Gotta love that god.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Angle-plex Report post Posted June 18, 2003 if there is no evil then why is something good? Something is only "good" in contrast to evil. But that's not true. If you took away hate, you could still just feel indifferent, like, or love. Just like if you took away cold, hot would still exist. It would still burn or make you feel uncomfortable. Wrong. You are still working from the viewpoint of knowing what hate and what cold feels like. If there was only hot, then the burning feeling is normal... there is no reference point. It just "is". Philosophically, you MUST have evil to have good, and vice versa. Well there are two kinds of evils; Moral Evil and Natural Evil. Moral Evil (murder) is necessary for good. However, Natural Evil, such as Volcanos, tornados, floods, ect., does not benifit mankind in any way. Natural evil arises through no fault of man. Mankind also is powerless to control or stop natural evil. So then, why would god create natural evil when it is only necessary to have moral evil? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted June 18, 2003 All of my usual points have been brought up already (thanks Tom). But I just find it absurd the way people feel like they can consider themselves Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. and not follow the letter of the law. If you don't want to follow all the rules or go to mass every week, then get the fuck out because you are only giving the entire religion you "belong" to a bad reputation. Organized religion is full of hypocrites. I would consider majority of my own family hypocrites for this same reason. There is nothing wrong with just living your life as a good person and not sticking a specific religious label on yourself. Being a Catholic that doesn't follow the letter of the law doesn't make me some sort of hypocrite since I have never said anything such as "only Catholics go to heaven" or "Go bible power". Because I am a member of a group doesn't not make the group my sole descriptive characteristic. I'm also a republican, but I would love to allow gay marriges... I guess I'm a hypocrite on that stance as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Wrong. You are still working from the viewpoint of knowing what hate and what cold feels like. If there was only hot, then the burning feeling is normal... there is no reference point. It just "is". Philosophically, you MUST have evil to have good, and vice versa. If hot was all that existed, then yeah, there wouldn't be a reference point. But since you're only taking out cold, cold to you would just be normal room temperature. It would still feel better than being hot and sweaty. Love would still feel better to you than indifference or just liking something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cancer Marney Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Actually you missed the part where they said Catholics are not Christians. Yeah, I know. I just didn't see much point in addressing it because it's such a silly thing to say. The moment you start talking about "true" Christianity and saying one sect is "truer" than another sect the whole argument devolves into pure religious sectarianism. And I think we've killed enough people over the years without going down that route again. They can call me un-Christian if they like; after seeing what I have of their brand of Christianity, I'm more than glad to accept the label. I'm a Jesuit; if that makes me a bad Christian, so be it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Well there are two kinds of evils; Moral Evil and Natural Evil. Moral Evil (murder) is necessary for good. However, Natural Evil, such as Volcanos, tornados, floods, ect., does not benifit mankind in any way. Natural evil arises through no fault of man. Mankind also is powerless to control or stop natural evil. So then, why would god create natural evil when it is only necessary to have moral evil? To punish Adam and Eve, duh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cancer Marney Report post Posted June 18, 2003 If there was only hot, then the burning feeling is normal... there is no reference point. It just "is". Philosophically, you MUST have evil to have good, and vice versa. That's certainly true philosophically, but in all Christian doctrine God himself is the reference point. Remember, evil never existed until Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree and acquired free will thereby. God wasn't morally neutral before that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cancer Marney Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Evolution has been proven to an extent and the "church" still comes up with lame excuses to why they don't believe the scientific proof. It's really quite unbelieveable at the amount of ignorance christians carry aorund with them. Actually, the Catholic church formally accepted the scientific fact of evolution almost seven years ago. They just don't accept the possibility of an evolution of the human soul, which is fine, because science has nothing to say about even the existence of the soul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ripper Report post Posted June 18, 2003 All of my usual points have been brought up already (thanks Tom). But I just find it absurd the way people feel like they can consider themselves Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. and not follow the letter of the law. If you don't want to follow all the rules or go to mass every week, then get the fuck out because you are only giving the entire religion you "belong" to a bad reputation. Organized religion is full of hypocrites. I would consider majority of my own family hypocrites for this same reason. There is nothing wrong with just living your life as a good person and not sticking a specific religious label on yourself. Being a Catholic that doesn't follow the letter of the law doesn't make me some sort of hypocrite since I have never said anything such as "only Catholics go to heaven" or "Go bible power". Because I am a member of a group doesn't not make the group my sole descriptive characteristic. I'm also a republican, but I would love to allow gay marriges... I guess I'm a hypocrite on that stance as well. And just to add to that, any religion that follows the Bible knows that the bible ackknowledges that man is not capable of being perfect, thus no one can follow the religion down to letter. It is the acknowledgement that it is wrong and the want to repent that makes up the bible based religions. Of course alot of religious sect forgot that a LONG time ago. So basically if you have a preacher, reverend, minister or priest that claims to follow the religion down to the letter, he is a liar!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ripper Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Evolution has been proven to an extent and the "church" still comes up with lame excuses to why they don't believe the scientific proof. It's really quite unbelieveable at the amount of ignorance christians carry aorund with them. Actually, the Catholic church formally accepted the scientific fact of evolution almost seven years ago. They just don't accept the possibility of an evolution of the human soul, which is fine, because science has nothing to say about even the existence of the soul. Okay, I just didn't feel like going back and finding the original post so this is in no way directed at you Marney. But why is it such a big deal to you or anyone else if someone choses to not believe in evolution. If thier religion is making them happy and making them content in life, why do people have to be so combative and run thier belief in the ground. I don't freakin care how I got here. I don't believe that man and primates evolved from the same species but generally I don't care. And I won't trash someone for believing we did, and I won't trash religious types from believing that God formed us from dust. Their beliefs will have no bearing on your life. Let people be happy in thier own beliefs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Angle-plex Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Well there are two kinds of evils; Moral Evil and Natural Evil. Moral Evil (murder) is necessary for good. However, Natural Evil, such as Volcanos, tornados, floods, ect., does not benifit mankind in any way. Natural evil arises through no fault of man. Mankind also is powerless to control or stop natural evil. So then, why would god create natural evil when it is only necessary to have moral evil? To punish Adam and Eve, duh Doesn't that mean that god CREATED evil? If god created evil, than that means he is not "perfectly good". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cancer Marney Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Ditto Goodear and Ripper. I'm a Jesuit and a Republican, I'm in favour of gun control, I'm pro-choice, and not for an instant will I believe that anyone's going to hell just because he doesn't believe in Jesus. I attend Mass almost every Sunday and I'm also a practicing homosexual. Does that make me a hypocrite? No. That makes me an individual. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ripper Report post Posted June 18, 2003 God Kills because they have to die. Their purpose has been served and its thier time to move on. IMO of course. The whole "sins of the father will not punish the son" thing should have really killed the whole "We are paying for Adam and Eve's sin" thing but I guess some people like to skip that part of the Bible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cancer Marney Report post Posted June 18, 2003 why is it such a big deal to you or anyone else if someone choses to not believe in evolution Eh. I don't care if someone says he doesn't believe in evolution. That just means he's ignorant; evolution is a well-documented fact, not an article of faith. But I won't start a debate over it. If someone claims there's scientific evidence against the fact of evolution, however, or if someone claims that the Bible contains references to dinosaurs when I know damn well it doesn't since I've actually READ it, I will call him on the carpet. Because either he's stupid or he's a liar. Stupidity is the one crime that never goes unpunished and I just have a personal thing against liars. They annoy me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Organized religion has always been a tool for social control. People who rabidly preached the derivative myths needed a way to keep the rabble in line, so they added things like Hell, Satan, and the like to scare people into behaving the right way. It's certainly been effective for the last 2000 years. Then 'original sin' came along, thus requiring Baptism to "remove," thus hooking someone into the church when they're too young to reject what they hear. Its effectiveness is admirable. Of course, religion has been responsible for countless wars, murders, rapes, and other atrocities over the years. Something that is ostensibly supposed to unite people has done a lot to divide them, often at the point of a sword. Love thy neighbor as thyself, but don't be afraid to run him through if the village idiot says he's in league with the devil. Brilliant. As for Mormons, the difference between 'Mormon' and 'Moron' is only one letter, and that's not a big enough difference for me to take them seriously. what tom said Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cancer Marney Report post Posted June 18, 2003 The whole "sins of the father will not punish the son" thing should have really killed the whole "We are paying for Adam and Eve's sin" thing but I guess some people like to skip that part of the Bible. How about Exodus 20:5? "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me..." Also Deuteronomy 5:9, 23:2, and 23:7-8: "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." "An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever..." "Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land. The children that are begotten of them shall enter into the congregation of the Lord in their third generation." Of course, people say that the New Testament established another covenant which replaced the Old Testament entirely, but that begs the question of why God was such a complete asshole back in the day. Morality doesn't change from one year to the next. If it's wrong to kill babies today it was wrong for God to kill the firstborn in Egypt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 So God kills all those people every year because of what Adam and Eve did a long time ago? Yes! Isn't Christianity fun? They ate the magic apple! What else could a loving God do? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murmuring Beast 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 The whole Heaven entry thing really disturbs me. I mean, if you are deaf you don't get in. If you are handicapped you don't get in. Whhho booked this crap? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ripper Report post Posted June 18, 2003 The Bible offers so many contradictions because there are so many authors all putting their own 2 cents in. Its like the didn't read the part those before them wrote and just wrote what they felt, it got bound together and now we have the Bible. Now don't get me wrong. I think the bible is a wonderful tool that can lead SOME in the direction for a more enlightend and enjoyable life. But anyone that says that it is the word of god untouched by man, you are either really calling God a asshole, or just read the parts that you want to read. The biggest contradiction to me is this. We are created in Gods image, right. So our emotions and such are off shoots of our creator. If GOD got pissed off at Sodim and at the entire world during the Noah thing, and killed everyone, then how can it be a sin when we get pissed and kill someone. God is infallable...I would think he has more control of his emotions than we are expected to. So unless God meant "thou shal not kill....unless they REALLY piss you off" then it doesn't make sence that God slaughtered a city because they were naughty and homosexual. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DrTom Report post Posted June 18, 2003 The whole Heaven entry thing really disturbs me. I mean, if you are deaf you don't get in. If you are handicapped you don't get in. ... Quoi? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murmuring Beast 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 Basically what he said: "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." Rinse and Repeat for the blind, deaf, mentally handicapped, foriegn, non-believers, ignorant - they're all going to Hell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DrTom Report post Posted June 18, 2003 What does the quoted passage -- which specifically refers to a child born out of wedlock -- have to do with the handicapped being able to get into Heaven? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murmuring Beast 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 They're excluded too. I can't quote you, but it's in there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Cancer Marney Report post Posted June 18, 2003 I wish you would quote chapter and verse, because I don't remember anything like that either. Jesus healed the deaf, the blind, and the dumb; he didn't damn them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murmuring Beast 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 The thing is, a lot of this crap was said without Jesus's consultation. Jesus doesn't play that big a part in the bible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest IDrinkRatsMilk Report post Posted June 18, 2003 It was Paul. He wrote most of the new testament and I don't think he even met Jesus... or if he did, he didn't like him. He also seemed to have a problem with women. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murmuring Beast 0 Report post Posted June 18, 2003 I don't have a bible handy right now, but once I do, I'll do some good ol' fashioned bashing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
