Ring Of Honor - July 19th - Elizabeth, NJ

July 22, 2003

Well what I think it all comes down to is that the ROH fans have come to expect WAY too much of ROH. I dont even really consider ROH a real indy fed. They dont have any guys that they have trained themselves and the guys who are crappy they get rid of. They seem to have a huge budget and bring in the best workers from all over the US. The ROH fans expect them to do this, and when something goes wrong and shatters their expectations they shit on it. I think that is BS, but it is the same thing for just about every one of those bigger North East feds.

For instance, I would like to compare the IWA-MS July 4th Show to any ROH show. There are of course, great workers in IWA, many of which were not very popular among the net until they went to IWA. They of course but on great matches and the crowd appreciated it. Of course, there were also some guys there that day, that no one knew who were coming in for tryout matches, sort of. Now if it were CZW or ROH im betting these guys would have been shit on with every little screw up they had, and there is no denying that, but the IWA crowd had more respect. They sat there, watched the matches, and got the most out of them that they could and some of the matches turned out to be great. Only two guys (a tag team) got dont come back chants and believe me, they were possibly the two worse wrestlers I have EVER seen (JB Insanity and Yellow Jacket, who both had the worse offense EVER).

Now take ROH bringing in a guy like Iceberg for example on Do or Die. His match with Tortuga wasnt bad at all and actually, Berg looked good in it. But for no real reason, he got "Dont come back" chants from the hostile ROH crowd. Konnan did well in his match at Revenge on the Prophecy, yet still got booed after it. See, Philly and North East fans are just spoiled, thats what it pretty much comes down too. Down here in Texas we are lucky to see one match on a show that is even ROH undercard good but we still clap for everyone, because they are putting on a show for us and I know they are trying so its the only respectful thing to do. I agree with Jimmy that I would rather see Mexican fans give heat to a young guy like Zumbido because he is a Rudo and go ape shit for Ricky Marvin because he is a technico, and not shit on Brazo De Plata just because he is past his prime (but surprisingly can still work when motivated).

July 22, 2003

I'll respond more in depth later-

But ROTP was in Pittsburgh- NOT Philadelphia.

July 22, 2003

Well what I think it all comes down to is that the ROH fans have come to expect WAY too much of ROH.

How so? We just ask to be entertained. How does expecting too much mean we boo Jeff.

The ROH fans expect them to do this, and when something goes wrong and shatters their expectations they shit on it. I think that is BS, but it is the same thing for just about every one of those bigger North East feds.

Have you been to an ROH show? The crowd is usually very receotive to everything. They just don't want pieces of shit like Jeff Hardy.

Of course, there were also some guys there that day, that no one knew who were coming in for tryout matches, sort of. Now if it were CZW or ROH im betting these guys would have been shit on with every little screw up they had, and there is no denying that

Actually there is- I once again ask if you have been to a Ring of Honor show.

At some cards they do 'Showcase' cards where they do put on tryout matches for the most part. And the crowd doesn't shit on them- Looks like I denied it.

Only two guys (a tag team) got dont come back chants

That's some respect the IWA-MS guys show.

Now take ROH bringing in a guy like Iceberg for example on Do or Die. His match with Tortuga wasnt bad at all and actually, Berg looked good in it.

No he didn't- The match was awful and a complete waste of time. They also booked the match a week after a ROH poll revealed that an overwhelming majority of the fans don't want super heavyweights. Iceberg sucks, the match sucks and the fans responded in kind.

Konnan did well in his match at Revenge on the Prophecy

That was a 6-man tag. He let the other guys do all the work and came in and hit his spots. That's not doing well- that's being protected.

See, Philly and North East fans are just spoiled

No- we just have high standards and expect to be entertained.

Down here in Texas we are lucky to see one match on a show that is even ROH undercard good but we still clap for everyone, because they are putting on a show for us and I know they are trying so its the only respectful thing to do.

If I see a match that I don't like- I'm going to boo. Maybe at a dinky Texas indie I'll lower my standards but ROH has a reputation.

Chunk · July 22, 2003

This is wrestling- You want the crowd to make noise- or else it results in a dead crowd. And that's bad. If Jeff can't handle being booed- He should get the fuck out.

I went to RAW with the intention of booing Rosey from Three Minute Warning because he is a heel. Damn my disrespect. I intended to boo CM Punk before he got into the ring.

Thats something completely different, and you knew full well what I meant. Booing a heel is one thing, but booing a face before they even get to the ring is very different.

I don't like Jeff Hardy- I don't think it's right that he was booked for the show and is probably making more then most workers there. So I should cheer him when he comes out?

No you dont have to cheer him at all. But couldn't you be respectful enought to actual, hmm I dont know ... watch his match before you boo him?

That's hearsay. You weren't at the show nor have you seen any of the footage. I think you're the one with the head up your ass.

Again, you take what I've said out of context. Ive stated on more than one occasion that I can only go by online reports. However, you have stated yourself that he was booed from the moment he came out.

How does us booing Jeff Hardy mean that we know more about the business then he does?

Its the whole attitude towards him. It was the same with Konnan. You basically think you know best, and you know what is good for ROH, if you get it into your head that you dont like someone you wont give them a chance.

If he can't handle crowd heat- THEN WHY THE FUCK IS HE IN WRESTLING? What the fuck is his problem?

I thought you knew all about his "problems", most smart fans are only to eager to post about how he takes drugs etc

You know what- Konnan got booed out of the building at Final Battle- Did you hear him complain about it? No. Did you hear him call the people who booed him idiots? No. Konnan ended up showing up to the next show despite his ROH reputation. If Konnan can handle it- why can't Jeff?

Thats another point alltogether, im talking purely about what happened up to him getting in the ring. WHat he, reportedly, did afterwards is another thing alltogether, and weather i agree with it or not is irrelevant to my arguement.

Jeff could've proved me wrong. I didn't give him a chance -BECAUSE THE MATCH SUCKED. It was sloppy, had no flow, no spectacular spots and was dull. Jeff blew a DDT and did nothing interesting. So it's my fault that Jeff Hardy blew a DDT?

Im not going to continue this arguement, because you've basically summed it up in that comment. You say you didnt give Jeff a chance because the match sucked. But you have admitted that you booed him before the match even started. On top of that you made it clear that you were going to boo him before you even left home to get to the show.

You have every right to do what you want, and you may believe that booing someone without giving them a chance to work for you is ok. However, I find it disrespectful and narrow minded. If you want to be another "smart" fan at an ROH show who thinks he knows best and will go along with what the rest of the crowd chant, then that is up to you, but I have a different opinion.

I do not like Jeff Hardy. Therefore when he comes out- I will boo him. Is that so wrong?

No its not. I just cant understand why you wouldnt give a guy 5 minutes to impress you before you open your mouth and start booing him.

Jeff Hardy was given a chance- he failed.

This is why I cant be bothered with this arguement anymore.

You just typed this a few paragraphs above:

I didn't give him a chance -BECAUSE THE MATCH SUCKED

July 23, 2003

How so? We just ask to be entertained. How does expecting too much mean we boo Jeff.

And maybe you should give it the chance to entertain you before booing the hell out of someone...

Have you been to an ROH show? The crowd is usually very receotive to everything. They just don't want pieces of shit like Jeff Hardy.

No, but ive been watching North East indy feds for the better part of 4 years now or more and I have realized the crowds have gotten worse. If they dont want to see pieces of shit like Jeff Hardy then just dont watch the match...they dont have to be such assholes about it, they get their money's worth anyhow...

At some cards they do 'Showcase' cards where they do put on tryout matches for the most part. And the crowd doesn't shit on them- Looks like I denied it.

What ive seen from showcase cards is the fans sitting on their hands pretty much and not giving a crap about the match if it doesnt feature someone they have been acustomed to. Plus, usually it doesnt look like the crowd is full during the showcase cards...

That's some respect the IWA-MS guys show.

Believe me, they deserved it. I think they were backyarders (Ian didnt turn anyone down for the show) and they sucked horribly. Im talking worst match EVER horribly. Im talking like El Gigante wrapped up in a smaller body frame horribly. It was bad but at least the fans sat through the match and supported the match.

No he didn't- The match was awful and a complete waste of time. They also booked the match a week after a ROH poll revealed that an overwhelming majority of the fans don't want super heavyweights. Iceberg sucks, the match sucks and the fans responded in kind.

What was so awful about it? It was short and Iceberg did nothing wrong. He bumped for Tortuga and he hit all his spots fine. Sure it probably should have been on a showcase card, but I think ROH had plans for Iceberg before the fans shit on him, seeing as how they gave him a backstage skit before.

That was a 6-man tag. He let the other guys do all the work and came in and hit his spots. That's not doing well- that's being protected.

And he hit the spots well if you ask me. He executed everything just fine as did just about everyone else in the match? So whats your point?

No- we just have high standards and expect to be entertained.

So your spoiled? I guess I should say, your lucky. Youve got alot to choose from but they seem to forget that. The guys are trying to entertain you and trying to make a living. Look at it this way, no one comes to your job and boos you when you make a mistake. Hell, take a Trent Acid or all of Special K for example. The guys blow spots all the time, yet people still are receptive to theirmatches. Why? I dont know, you tell me...

If I see a match that I don't like- I'm going to boo. Maybe at a dinky Texas indie I'll lower my standards but ROH has a reputation.

And its their job to maintain that reputation, not yours. So in other words, booing does no one any good. Im sure Rob and Gabe know bad matches when they see them and im sure the people in the bad matches will be told that it wasnt up to ROH standard. Booing the guys just makes the match even worse and looks bad for the whole company.

July 23, 2003

Thats something completely different, and you knew full well what I meant. Booing a heel is one thing, but booing a face before they even get to the ring is very different.

You didn't word it clearly- Jeff Hardy's character was also not a "face." He was not established as anything so the crowd was free to decide for themselves. They booed him.

No you dont have to cheer him at all. But couldn't you be respectful enought to actual, hmm I dont know ... watch his match before you boo him?

I don't like Jeff Hardy. Therefore when he comes out- I will boo him.

Again, you take what I've said out of context. Ive stated on more than one occasion that I can only go by online reports. However, you have stated yourself that he was booed from the moment he came out.

But you don't know what the crowd was like or who had their head up whose ass. You're just basing this by an internet report. They did boo when Jeff came out-

BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE HIM.

There's no law that says you have to like everything- that's the beauty of ROH.

It was the same with Konnan.

You're defending him now?? Konnan was SO bad- they cut his match OUT OF THE TAPE.

You basically think you know best

No I don't. I just don't like Jeff Hardy.

and you know what is good for ROH, if you get it into your head that you dont like someone you wont give them a chance.

I thought Danny Maff v. Samoa Joe would suck- it ended up kicking ass. Konnan wasn't booed upon entrance- He was booed when he blew up three minutes in.

I thought you knew all about his "problems", most smart fans are only to eager to post about how he takes drugs etc

I didn't mention anything about his drug use- I honestly wanted to know why Jeff has a stick up his ass.

But you have admitted that you booed him before the match even started

Because I don't like him. Had he gone there and put on a good match- I would've warmed up to him. He botched a DDT.

You have every right to do what you want, and you may believe that booing someone without giving them a chance to work for you is ok.

I'm glad you think that way.

However, I find it disrespectful and narrow minded.

It's disrespectful to boo someone I don't like?

If you want to be another "smart" fan at an ROH show who thinks he knows best

I wasn't being another "smart" ROH fan. I was simply express my dislike of Jeff through vocal minds.

and will go along with what the rest of the crowd chant

I resent that- I started my own chant that night.

No its not. I just cant understand why you wouldnt give a guy 5 minutes to impress you before you open your mouth and start booing him.

He could've impressed me and the 1,000 people who paid their money to see him perform. He did not and he temporarily killed the crowd as a result.

I did boo him when he came out but I stopped booing until I realised the match was sucking shit.

Jeff Hardy sucks and he got the reaction he deserved. It's a shame he can't handle criticism

July 23, 2003

if you think about it, Bob was just being a wrestling fan...booing who he didn't like, cheering who he did. Its the fans that chant just to chant that anoy me.

July 23, 2003

if you think about it, Bob was just being a wrestling fan...booing who he didn't like, cheering who he did. Its the fans that chant just to chant that anoy me.

I do like to chant stuff- but it's always in the context of the match.

When Jimmy Jacobs wrestled we were making chants based on his huss gimmick

July 23, 2003

The IWA MS crowds rule. They enjoy their wrestling and the fun stupid brawls and act like a traditional wrestling crowd should. The difference between say a Colt Cabana vs CM Punk match in IWA MS compered to a ROH match with the same two guys shows the difference between the two sets of fans.

In IWA MS the match is about working the heel\face dynamic with the crowd getting into Cabana's whole excellant heel antics and Punk's face work. Now in ROH they cut out most of this fearing the crowd turning on them both because of it. In so making their match much more of a menaginless exhibition of moves and counters instead.

You see IWA MS fans want to boo the heels and cheer the faces [an if its a bad match they fuck off and get something to eat\drink or just react with silence]. The ROH lot thinking they are above all that stuff being smart now and not marks want to boo anyone they deem not worthy enough and cheer anyone who puts on a good exhibition [then have a hug at the end].

July 23, 2003

Konnan did well in his match at Revenge on the Prophecy, yet still got booed after it

I was at that show, and Konnan was actually getting a decent reception until he got the submission on Ghost Shadow. It was a case of "We'll tolerate you, but since there are four or five guys we like better you'd better not get the fall."

July 23, 2003

The bottom line is that ROH fans go to ROH to see good wrestling, it is what ROH provide, heaven forbid. So when a guy like Jeff Hardy comes in, you would think he would expect such a reaction.

Suggesting that ROH fans go to the show for themselves, or to be witty smartasses or anything is insane. They go for the best indy product today, period.

They have only ripped into ICP, Konnan and Jeff Hardy. Look at the wrestling quality provided by them. Should ROH fans cheer them because they are faces, or because of "who" they are? Just a dumb argument to me. If the fans think they suck, or don't want to see them, then they damn well should boo them.

Lastly, ROH fans for the most part felt that Xavier was not a worthy champion, and booed him many times, particularily during his entrance. Then, he would have a good match and would get applauded for it. End of story. ROH fans appreciate real wrestling, they cheer for it, and boo those who suck.

ROH fans use their freedom of speech and cheer who they want and boo who they want. Good god, somebody stop this horrible crime!

I still don't see why there is even an opposition to this.

July 23, 2003

End of story. ROH fans appreciate real wrestling, they cheer for it, and boo those who suck.

I still don't see why there is even an opposition to this.

Because there is older wrestling fans like myself who have a problem with it. Alot of smarts think they are above storylines and heel\face work and think they aren't important parts to a wrestling fed as long as they get some solid wrestling and the workers 'don't suck'. When in fact these things are a massivly important part of 'real wrestling' and a staple of every successful wrestling fed pretty much everywhere in the world for a long time.

July 23, 2003

Because there is older wrestling fans like myself who have a problem with it. Alot of smarts think they are above storylines and heel\face work and think they aren't important parts to a wrestling fed as long as they get some solid wrestling and the workers 'don't suck'. When in fact these things are a massivly important part of 'real wrestling' and a staple of every successful wrestling fed pretty much everywhere in the world for a long time.

Face/Heel Dynamics mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the YEAR 2003

Last year, at the XWF shows, they were telling people who to cheer and boo.

Thats called CENSORSHIP

Wait Jimmy, why am I telling you this, the XWF and Jeff Hardy matches are probably your idea of pro wrestling anyway.

If I go to a wrestling show, I will cheer and boo for who ever i like, and yes, that does make me better than the five year old sitting beside me

July 24, 2003

Face/Heel Dynamics mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the YEAR 2003

Last year, at the XWF shows, they were telling people who to cheer and boo.

Thats called CENSORSHIP

Wait Jimmy, why am I telling you this, the XWF and Jeff Hardy matches are probably your idea of pro wrestling anyway.

If I go to a wrestling show, I will cheer and boo for who ever i like, and yes, that does make me better than the five year old sitting beside me

EMLL, AAA, OVW, WWE, IWA MS, GAEA, Noah, Osaka Pro, Toryumon, Portland, Memphis, All Star.....

I am guessing alot of those mean nothing to you as you have never seen them. They book matches and feuds in 2003 involving faces vs heels dynamics which mean something to the fans who watch them.

Maybe you meant in 2003 face\heel dynamics mean nothing to people on the internet who goto ROH shows. Which I would agree with and say was one of the problems with their crowds.

And I think in this thread I have said I could'nt really give a shit about Jeff Hardy and if he was booked at a show I was going to I would take that oppurtunity to goto the bar and get something to drink. I have never seen an XWF show either.

July 24, 2003

EMLL, AAA, OVW, WWE, IWA MS, GAEA, Noah, Osaka Pro, Toryumon, Portland, Memphis, All Star.....

I am guessing alot of those mean nothing to you as you have never seen them. They book matches and feuds in 2003 involving faces vs heels dynamics which mean something to the fans who watch them.

Maybe you meant in 2003 face\heel dynamics mean nothing to people on the internet who goto ROH shows. Which I would agree with and say was one of the problems with their crowds.

And I think in this thread I have said I could'nt really give a shit about Jeff Hardy and if he was booked at a show I was going to I would take that oppurtunity to goto the bar and get something to drink. I have never seen an XWF show either.

Never seen any Lucha, pile of masked Mexicans flying about the place isnt my cup of tea

Never seen any Joshi

Ditto Noah or Osaka pro, but generally in Puro there are very few face/heel dynamics, its all about the competition.

As for OVW, i personally think thats the most mismanaged and badly booked "promotion" in the US, Jim Cornette, much like yourself, need to realise it aint the 80s anymore.

July 24, 2003

Never seen any Lucha, pile of masked Mexicans flying about the place isnt my cup of tea

Never seen any Joshi

Ditto Noah or Osaka pro, but generally in Puro there are very few face/heel dynamics, its all about the competition.

As for OVW, i personally think thats the most mismanaged and badly booked "promotion" in the US, Jim Cornette, much like yourself, need to realise it aint the 80s anymore.

Lucha matches in WCW were just about the show as they were mostly about displaying lucha moves. If you had watched any Lucha shows from Mexico you would know that the whole thing is rooted in kayfabe and its still real in Mexico.

Well as you have never seen any Joshi and probably never seen any recent Toryumon, Osaka Pro, Noah how you can come to the conclusion that Puro is 'all about the competition' shows your ignorance. As do your thoughts that OVW is a badly booked promotion when its tv is possibly the tightest of any in the world. With Cornette keeping everything making sense week to week and kayfabed down to the locker rooms and he has fined babyfaces wrestlers for being seen heel wrestlers.

July 24, 2003

kayfabed down to the locker rooms and he has fined babyfaces wrestlers for being seen heel wrestlers.

Today is April 24, 2003, in the 21st Century

July 24, 2003

So what ? kayfabe means nothing to you in April 24, 2003 ?

edit - lol its July the 24th anyway. Maybe you were working me....hmmm maybe not.

You said "Face/Heel Dynamics mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the YEAR 2003"

I named 12 feds where it still ment something to the bookers, wrestlers and their fans.

Your ignorance of this side of wrestling and infact your thoughts on OVW and Lucha [which I doubt you have watched any of anyway]. These just go up to backing my beliefs on alot ROH fans and the majourity of people who goto their shows.

Edited July 24, 2003 by Jimmy Saint

July 24, 2003

Today is April 24, 2003, in the 21st Century

And your point is? Im guessing you are trying to say that we are now past kayfabe and that it is a lost art or something, but truth is, without it there is no reason to watch pro wrestling. Without the heel/face dynamic, what makes pro wrestling an art? Without some story behind a match, what makes that match special? Hell, we could see Chris Hero and CM Punk wrestle 90 minutes for no reason behind it but why would the wrestlers want that? Keeping some sort of Kayfabe is good for the sport and enhances matches especially when crowds participate accordingly.

July 24, 2003

Without Kayfabe, there is no story to tell. Unless wrestlling goes MMA, then there needs to be kayfabe.

JustJoe2k5 · July 24, 2003

Well what I think it all comes down to is that the ROH fans have come to expect WAY too much of ROH.

How so? We just ask to be entertained. How does expecting too much mean we boo Jeff.

The ROH fans expect them to do this, and when something goes wrong and shatters their expectations they shit on it. I think that is BS, but it is the same thing for just about every one of those bigger North East feds.

Have you been to an ROH show? The crowd is usually very receotive to everything. They just don't want pieces of shit like Jeff Hardy.

Of course, there were also some guys there that day, that no one knew who were coming in for tryout matches, sort of. Now if it were CZW or ROH im betting these guys would have been shit on with every little screw up they had, and there is no denying that

Actually there is- I once again ask if you have been to a Ring of Honor show.

At some cards they do 'Showcase' cards where they do put on tryout matches for the most part. And the crowd doesn't shit on them- Looks like I denied it.

Only two guys (a tag team) got dont come back chants

That's some respect the IWA-MS guys show.

Now take ROH bringing in a guy like Iceberg for example on Do or Die. His match with Tortuga wasnt bad at all and actually, Berg looked good in it.

No he didn't- The match was awful and a complete waste of time. They also booked the match a week after a ROH poll revealed that an overwhelming majority of the fans don't want super heavyweights. Iceberg sucks, the match sucks and the fans responded in kind.

Konnan did well in his match at Revenge on the Prophecy

That was a 6-man tag. He let the other guys do all the work and came in and hit his spots. That's not doing well- that's being protected.

See, Philly and North East fans are just spoiled

No- we just have high standards and expect to be entertained.

Down here in Texas we are lucky to see one match on a show that is even ROH undercard good but we still clap for everyone, because they are putting on a show for us and I know they are trying so its the only respectful thing to do.

If I see a match that I don't like- I'm going to boo. Maybe at a dinky Texas indie I'll lower my standards but ROH has a reputation.

William Regal sucks, period.

July 24, 2003

And your point is...?

July 24, 2003

Man, you know you've been beat if you have to say Regal Sucks.

I mean, Bob gets that alll the time...say something else...like Regal Blows...

July 24, 2003

Wow, this thread is dandy.

12/28- Konan gets moderate pop and gets claps for beginning sequences until he blows up

Word gets out...Pittsburgh fans boo...so what?

7/19- Hardy gets boo'ed out of building. What respect does he deserve? He has fallen through some tables and off ladders in the WEE. Never been in a match at ***1/2+

Bring in Eddy, Benoit, Angle, Lesnar...they would be treated fine w ROH fans. Hell, bring in Matt and he would be fine. Jeff was at ROH because he got canned.

"No one likes a loser"

Tim

July 24, 2003

Wow, this thread is dandy.

Bring in Eddy, Benoit, Angle, Lesnar...they would be treated fine w ROH fans. Hell, bring in Matt and he would be fine. Jeff was at ROH because he got canned.

"No one likes a loser"

Tim

Eddy was treated well by the ROH fans. He phoned it in a fair bit with his typical indy performance at that time. They were still fairly watchable matches though. The first being the better.

"No one likes a loser"

I know thats why everyone hates Chris Coey and the gimps who frequent his board.

Edited July 25, 2003 by Jimmy Saint

July 24, 2003

Jesus, why did i write April.......

To me, Kayfabe means nothing anymore...saying that I think Vince Russo is a genius who oughta be credited with saving the WWE, WCW, and TNA, so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask.

It's not my fault your precious Hardy got booed out of the building, and you seriously need to realise that the fans there were entitled to do what they like

July 24, 2003

I have said numerous times I could'nt give a shit about Jeff Hardy. Why you can't get this into you head is probably the same reason you think Russo is a genious and we are still in April.

I have also said about 10 times the ROH fans can do what they like. I just think they are idiots for acting like they do.

Kayfabe still lives just not in ROH.

July 24, 2003

And thats why ROH is a better promotion than OVW

July 24, 2003

In your opinion.

But in your opinion Cornette doesent know how to book, Russo is a genius who saved the whole NA wrestling scene and lucha is just guys in masks flying about.

July 25, 2003

Oh I know I have faults, I'll readily admit that.

My problem with you was your ROH fan bashing more than anything else

And Russo did save NA Wrestling, 3 times. Id write an essay on why and stick it on the main page if they let me

Ring Of Honor - July 19th - Elizabeth, NJ

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