Guest undisputedjericho Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Here's my list: Definite Roger Clemens - 300 wins, 4000 K's (3rd all time), 6 Cy Youngs (all time leader), MVP, 2 WS titles Mariano Rivera - near 300 saves, 4 WS titles, may be most dominant closer of all time when it's all said & done Randy Johnson - near 4000 K's (4th all time), 4 or 5 Cy Youngs, 1 WS Title Rickey Henderson - all time leader (SBs & Runs), Multiple WS titles Barry Bonds - 640+ HR (4th all time), 5 or 6 MVP's Cal Ripken, Jr - 2100+ consecutive game streak (all time leader), MVP, Rookie of the Year Mark McGwire - 500+ HR, WS title, Olympic gold medal Sammy Sosa - 500+ HR, 2 MVP's Good Chance Derek Jeter - Stellar defense & mind for the game (You put Ozzie Smith in, you put DJ in), All Star & WS MVP, Rookie of the Year, 4 WS Titles Alex Rodriguez - Doesn't he have like 300 HR already? Nomar Garciaparra - Near mirror of A-Rod, with a little lower HR total, Rookie of the Year Rafeal Palmiero - 500 HR, though nothing else stands out (I'm against letting him in) Mike Piazza - Top offensive catcher, all time Greg Maddux - 250+ wins, 4 Cy Youngs Frank Thomas - nearing 400 HR I believe, 2 MVPs Jeff Bagwell - 400 HR Roberto Alomar - Stellar defense, OB%, runs scored, RBI, BA Ken Griffey, Jr - "Best Player of the '90's", MVP John Smoltz - Second life as dominant closer, Cy Young winner Pedro Martinez - 2 or 3 Cy Youngs, dominant K master Outside Chance Tom Glavine - approx 250 wins, Cy Young, WS title John Franco - 2nd all time in saves Omar Vizquel - Stellar defensive SS David Cone - only 196 wins, Cy Young, 5 WS titles Future HoF'ers (Too soon to tell) Albert Pujols - All Star, Rookie of the Year, Triple Crown contender Mark Mulder } Barry Zito } The stellar "Big 3" Zito has a Cy Young Tim Hudson } Ichiro Suzuki - Blazing speed, defense, OP%, BA Vladimir Guerrero - THE 5 tool player Alfonso Soriano - Amazing blooming offensive stats for a 2B Jason Giambi - Nearing 300 HR, blooming as a superstar in NY Anyone else you think should be here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted July 25, 2003 How in the fuck is Greg Maddux not DEFINETLEY in the Hall of Fame? There's no good chance- it's definite Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Oh and no love for Tony Gwynn- one of the best hitters in baseball history? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest undisputedjericho Report post Posted July 25, 2003 I knew I was leaving off someone. Ah yes, the super-class of 2001 retirees, McGwire, Gwynn & Ripken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted July 25, 2003 How is Greg Maddux not a definite? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 I remember reading that there would be good chance one of those three would NOT make the First Ballot. who you think would be that person? Personally...Gotta Say Ripken was the lesser of the three but he had more Popularity then Tony but Knowing the Voters they might look at Mac as a Homer only guy and his past with 'Roids hurt him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest undisputedjericho Report post Posted July 25, 2003 He can be on your definite list. I think he has a little bit left to do to really put him over the hump. Like 300 wins or a few big game performances in the playoffs. How could a guy that great not be able to help his team win at least three titles during the Braves decade of destruction? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChris Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Plus, of course, Paul Molitor, Wade Boggs and Dennis Eckersley, all of whom are locks. Coney has very little chance, as does Franco (MANY more deserving relievers are not in, including Goose Gossage). Thomas has an outside chance right now...he needs at least 3 more great seasons. I don't think Rivera is even definite right now...he needs a few more seasons before I'll be totally convinced. Relievers are tricky. If Curt Schilling keeps going the way he has been, he may have a chance. Barry Larkin should be on the list as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaxPower27 Report post Posted July 25, 2003 He can be on your definite list. I think he has a little bit left to do to really put him over the hump. Like 300 wins or a few big game performances in the playoffs. How could a guy that great not be able to help his team win at least three titles during the Braves decade of destruction? How about being the second pitcher with 15 seasons of 15 or more wins? The other to do that? Some guy named Cy Young. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CanadianChris Report post Posted July 25, 2003 He can be on your definite list. I think he has a little bit left to do to really put him over the hump. Like 300 wins or a few big game performances in the playoffs. How could a guy that great not be able to help his team win at least three titles during the Braves decade of destruction? Nope, doesn't matter one bit. Along with Roger Clemens, Maddux was the dominant pitcher of his generation, by virtually every measure imaginable. He's one of the ten best pitchers since World War II, possibly even one of the top 5. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bob_barron Report post Posted July 25, 2003 He has 18 more wins to go before 300. He won 4 Cy Young Awards in a row. He's been one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball since 1992. That's a pretty long time. He had 7 straight seasons of sub 3.00 ERA. He's one World Series and been to 3 overall. How could a guy that great not be able to help his team win at least three titles during the Braves decade of destruction? His career WS Era is 2.09. That's pretty amazing is it not? His career postseason ERA is 3.23. He may not post a winning record but he comes to play when it counts. So please tell me- How is he not definetley going into the Hall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 (edited) Curt Schilling himself said "I won't make the HOF" and he wasn't being humble...He pretty much knows his numbers won't be admissable in his mind. My "IN" List (Current Players only) Barry Bonds Mike Piazza Randy Johnson Greg Maddux Rickey Henderson Roger Clemens Sammy Sosa Barry Larkin Rafeal Palamerio Jeff Bagwell John Smoltz Tom Glavine Ken Griffey Jr Oh Why are you "AGAINST" Palamerio? He is equally as deserving as Sosa and isn't just a 500 HR hitter. Has been an GREAT offensive player and hit good average over the years. Edited July 25, 2003 by Choken One Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaxPower27 Report post Posted July 25, 2003 If ARod doesn't make the HOF, I'm going to kill someone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Well Yeah A-Rod but I was under the guise of naming people at the end of their careers at the moment... My Bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MaxPower27 Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Well Yeah A-Rod but I was under the guise of naming people at the end of their careers at the moment... My Bad. Wasn't really directed at you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bravesfan Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Don't mention Maddux's Gold Glove streak (TWELVE consecutive awards, from 1990-2001). His eight All-Star appearances. Ten straight seasons having posted an ERA more than a FULL RUN below the league average (the closest pitcher to Maddux? Among others, Walter "Big Train" Johnson, with SIX.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
B. Brian Brunzell 0 Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Palmerio's career lengthening at DH has helped his stats out alot. That could be the thing that doesn't get him in right away. Harold Baines is the same way. Both have great numbers, but both have spent the latter part of their careers at the DH. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Palamerio has mainly played 1B and I believe still does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Finally, a topic I can sink my teeth into..... Mariano Rivera - near 300 saves, 4 WS titles, may be most dominant closer of all time when it's all said & done Agreed on all except Mariano Rivera. He's barely got 700 IP in his career. That's 3-4 years for a starter. A guy's got to pitch more than that. I can't think of a Hall of Famer with less than 1700 IP (Rollie Fingers). Derek Jeter - Stellar defense & mind for the game (You put Ozzie Smith in, you put DJ in), All Star & WS MVP, Rookie of the Year, 4 WS Titles Are you seriously comparing Jeter's defense to Ozzie Smith? Ozzie Smith was the best ever, while Jeter's barely passable at short. Jeter made great plays in the postseason? Smith made those plays every DAY. Not that Jeter's not a HOF candidate mind you, but if he does go in it'll be in spite of his defense, not because of it. Mike Piazza - Top offensive catcher, all time Greg Maddux - 250+ wins, 4 Cy Youngs Both these guys are in if they retire today. Omar Vizquel - Stellar defensive SS Omar shouldn't even be MENTIONED in HOF discussions. People compare him to Ozzie, but Omar isn't that good. His offense isn't even better than Smith's, when you consider that Vizquel played in the 90s in a hitter's park. Palmerio's career lengthening at DH has helped his stats out alot. That could be the thing that doesn't get him in right away. Harold Baines is the same way. Both have great numbers, but both have spent the latter part of their careers at the DH. That "career lengthening" includes only one season where he spent the majority of his games at DH. And he STILL won the Gold Glove that year (1999). Barry Larkin is a definate in my book. He's suffered because he's been seen at the tail end of his career, but he's an 11 time all star and he's got an MVP award to his credit. Plus 3 gold gloves, and he would've won more had he played in a different time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 STUPID ME...I forgot Larkin. Edits post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest undisputedjericho Report post Posted July 25, 2003 That "career lengthening" includes only one season where he spent the majority of his games at DH. And he STILL won the Gold Glove that year (1999). As I remember, he played a very small amount of his games that year at 1B, and it should've went to a more deserving player (Like Tino Martinez, who has never won a gold glove) And what makes Jeter a bad defender? No, he's not Ozzie Smith, but, who is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Larkin comes pretty god damn close... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted July 25, 2003 A good way to figure out how likely an active player or player who hasn't be retired long enough to be eligible yet is to get in the Hall of Fame is to go to basball-reference.com. They have a Hall of Fame monitor which is a statsical formula to do just that. I want copy the whole formula out but here is a brief explanation of it from the stie: "It attempts to assess how likely (not how deserving) an active player is to make the Hall of Fame. It's rough scale is 100 means a good possibility and 130 is a virtual cinch." Now of course this is a statistical formula so it can't take into account where a player played (i.e. playing in New York gives a player a lot more attention), if a player was perceived as a winner and how many championships they won, or if the player was a complete dick who no one liked. Here are hitter listings for non-eligible players with a score of 130 or higher who would be locks going by the formula (stats through 2002): 1. Barry Bonds 278 1. Tony Gwynn 278 3. Wade Boggs 268 4. Cal Ripken Jr. 236 5. Rickey Henderson 194 6. Roberto Alomar 193 7. Ken Griffey Jr. 192 8. Mark McGwire 169 9. Alex Rodriguez 167 10. Paul Molitor 165 10. Sammy Sosa 165 12. Frank Thomas 160 13. Mike Piazza 151 13. Larry Walker 151 15. Rafael Palmeiro 139 16. Jeff Bagwell 136 16. Ivan Rodriguez 136 18. Albert Belle 134 19. Edgar Martinez 130 Now here are players with a score of between 100-129 which means they have a good chance of making the Hall of Fame at this moment: 20. Bernie Williams 126 21. Derek Jeter 121 22. Juan Gonzalez 120 23. Manny Ramirez 119 24. Barry Larkin 118 25. Todd Helton 117 26. Andres Galarraga 111 27. Chipper Jones 110 28. Craig Biggio 105 29. Jose Canseco 103 29. Nomar Garciaparra 103 31. Valdimir Guerrero 101 32. Fred McGriff 100 Now here are the pitcher's rankings and there of course a lot fewer listed. Obviously its likely in future years batter standards to make the Hall of Fame will be raised and pitcher standards are lower but this is based on how players and pitchers have been voted in in the past. Here are pitchers with a score of 130 or higher meaning their locks at the moment (through 2002): 1. Randy Johnson 279 2. Roger Clemens 260 3. Greg Maddux 212 4. Dennis Eckersley 166 5. Pedro Martinez 161 6. Tom Glavine 135 Here are the (two) pitchers of scores between 100-129 meaning they are likely HOF at the moment: 7. Curt Schilling 122 8. John Franco 115 Oh and to add to the list here are I guess they would call bubble pitchers with scores between 90-99 but with pitching standards likely to be lowered these pitchers may have a good shot after all at the moment: 9. David Cone 97 10. Randy Myers 94 10. Mariano Rivera 94 12. Trevor Hoffman 92 13. John Smoltz 91 14. Mike Mussina 90 Now there ya go again purely on stats and obviously Jose Canseco won't be going in and Albert Belle is unlikely and the likes of Andres Galarraga and Fred McGriff will be hurt by playing in a hitters era. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 25, 2003 And what makes Jeter a bad defender? No, he's not Ozzie Smith, but, who is? People who look at stats. There's no perfect fielding stat, but Jeter looks bad in most of them. Jeter's got a cannon, but his range leaves a lot to be desired. He gets bad jumps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 A good way to figure out how likely an active player or player who hasn't be retired long enough to be eligible yet is to get in the Hall of Fame is to go to basball-reference.com. They have a Hall of Fame monitor which is a statsical formula to do just that. I want copy the whole formula out but here is a brief explanation of it from the stie: "It attempts to assess how likely (not how deserving) an active player is to make the Hall of Fame. It's rough scale is 100 means a good possibility and 130 is a virtual cinch." Now of course this is a statistical formula so it can't take into account where a player played (i.e. playing in New York gives a player a lot more attention), if a player was perceived as a winner and how many championships they won, or if the player was a complete dick who no one liked. Here are hitter listings for non-eligible players with a score of 130 or higher who would be locks going by the formula (stats through 2002): 1. Barry Bonds 278 1. Tony Gwynn 278 3. Wade Boggs 268 4. Cal Ripken Jr. 236 5. Rickey Henderson 194 6. Roberto Alomar 193 7. Ken Griffey Jr. 192 8. Mark McGwire 169 9. Alex Rodriguez 167 10. Paul Molitor 165 10. Sammy Sosa 165 12. Frank Thomas 160 13. Mike Piazza 151 13. Larry Walker 151 15. Rafael Palmeiro 139 16. Jeff Bagwell 136 16. Ivan Rodriguez 136 18. Albert Belle 134 19. Edgar Martinez 130 Now here are players with a score of between 100-129 which means they have a good chance of making the Hall of Fame at this moment: 20. Bernie Williams 126 21. Derek Jeter 121 22. Juan Gonzalez 120 23. Manny Ramirez 119 24. Barry Larkin 118 25. Todd Helton 117 26. Andres Galarraga 111 27. Chipper Jones 110 28. Craig Biggio 105 29. Jose Canseco 103 29. Nomar Garciaparra 103 31. Valdimir Guerrero 101 32. Fred McGriff 100 Now here are the pitcher's rankings and there of course a lot fewer listed. Obviously its likely in future years batter standards to make the Hall of Fame will be raised and pitcher standards are lower but this is based on how players and pitchers have been voted in in the past. Here are pitchers with a score of 130 or higher meaning their locks at the moment (through 2002): 1. Randy Johnson 279 2. Roger Clemens 260 3. Greg Maddux 212 4. Dennis Eckersley 166 5. Pedro Martinez 161 6. Tom Glavine 135 Here are the (two) pitchers of scores between 100-129 meaning they are likely HOF at the moment: 7. Curt Schilling 122 8. John Franco 115 Oh and to add to the list here are I guess they would call bubble pitchers with scores between 90-99 but with pitching standards likely to be lowered these pitchers may have a good shot after all at the moment: 9. David Cone 97 10. Randy Myers 94 10. Mariano Rivera 94 12. Trevor Hoffman 92 13. John Smoltz 91 14. Mike Mussina 90 Now there ya go again purely on stats and obviously Jose Canseco won't be going in and Albert Belle is unlikely and the likes of Andres Galarraga and Fred McGriff will be hurt by playing in a hitters era. Amazing. This site is an amazing site...Does NFL and NBA have anything similar? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Well the site is run privately and not by MLB. There is a football-reference.com I believe but its not nearly as in depth as this site. Oh and I was mistaken the formula does take into account if a player played on a championship team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Baseball-reference is the greatest site, ever. The great thing is that they don't have any graphics, so its a breeze to browse. They do have some sister sites. Not as advanced, but still may be worth a look. Basketball Reference Football Reference Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Bored, the formula was first explained in Bill James' The Politics Of Glory. Good book, especially if you're interested in the Hall of Fame. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Cool. I am digging how Junior was SEVENTH. And yet some people say his numbers aren't good enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bored 0 Report post Posted July 25, 2003 Oh another amazing baseball stat site is retrosheet.org. They have every single boxscore to every single game played since 1967. Just awesome. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
