US Troops Kidnapping for Intel

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Jul27.html

 

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info." They would have been released in due course, he added later.

 

The tactic worked. On Friday, Hogg said, the lieutenant general appeared at the front gate of the U.S. base and surrendered.

 

Sounds great, right?

 

Except, of course, the fact that hostage-taking is a war crime. But, if a tree falls in the woods with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?

[Guest NoCalMike]

Unless there is more to the story. This sounds bad, really bad.

[Guest Vyce]

Again, I find it hard to work up outrage.

 

Not that I support this, I just can't get that upset about it.

 

Then again, I'm the type of guy who was cheering Jack Bauer when it appeared he ordered the death of a Muslim terrorist's child in "24".

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

Meh, it wouldn't be the first time this has happened. Unless the US troops are following through with threats to innocent civillians, or treating them as criminals, then nothing should be done.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

HOLY SH*T!!!

 

I can't wait 'till '04 to vote for Howie and rid us of all this bad stuff that is going on in the world today.

 

At least the troops aren't strapping themselves with explosives and running into busy Iraqi shopping centers...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

HOLY SH*T!!!

 

I can't wait 'till '04 to vote for Howie and rid us of all this bad stuff that is going on in the world today.

 

At least the troops aren't strapping themselves with explosives and running into busy Iraqi shopping centers...

Because kidnapping people's families is much better.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

How is it better? When you run into a crowded eatery you could wipe out DOZENS of families...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying they're equally evil.

[Guest Big Poppa Popick]

dont try to equate evils...that's a poor kind of justification

 

 

on both sides

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Popick, unless you meant "compare", you're utterly insane. I completely fail to see how one is worse than the other, and I challenge you to back up your opinion.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

This is holding family members for info. The intent isn't to kill these people or even hurt them. A homicide bombers sole intent is to kill and injure has many people has possible.

[Guest Big Poppa Popick]

look, you cant justify evil by evil, compare evil by evil, so many things are so freaking relative to a person's morals, making a blanket statement like that

 

Tell it to the people affected that they'rejust the same thing. Me thinks those people, and their families, would feel differently.

 

Those who are victimized by the suicide bombers would say theyre worse...those kidnapped to get information would say thats worth

 

Don't put your morals into other's mouths.

 

would it help matters to say that I think both suck?

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

This is holding family members for info. The intent isn't to kill these people or even hurt them. A homicide bombers sole intent is to kill and injure has many people has possible.

So, by that justification, you could say that someone taking a busload of children hostage is justified if they're doing it for a reason, right?

[Guest Vern Gagne]

It's not right, but to say it's equal to walking into a crowded area and blowing yourself, is ridiculous.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I don't think they are equal in terms of evil-NESS, however under no circumstances should it be happening.

[Guest Big Poppa Popick]

hmm, im waiting for tyler to address my point

 

i hope my fellow social liberal sees exactly what im saying

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I didn't really address your post because you're saying the exact same thing I'm saying. It's not fair to say one thing is more evil than the other; quite frankly, they're both their own breed of evil. Thus, saying "at least they're not..." is irrelevant, and my outrage at that comment was simply a result of the "justification", not the comparison of one evil deed to another. Frankly, kidnapping and extortion is very, very wrong. It doesn't matter what the end is, it's just fucking wrong.

[Guest Vyce]

HOLY SH*T!!!

 

I can't wait 'till '04 to vote for Howie and rid us of all this bad stuff that is going on in the world today.

 

At least the troops aren't strapping themselves with explosives and running into busy Iraqi shopping centers...

Because kidnapping people's families is much better.

In a sense, I believe it is.

 

Pretty much nothing trumps death in my eyes.

 

Therefore, kidnapping < suicide bombers.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

So, you're saying that losing your family and the pain of not knowing their fate is better than dying yourself?

 

I can't, necessarily, say the same thing.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying they're equally evil.

kidnapping = suicide bombing?

 

Only in bizarro world.

 

Oh, and here's my sound you were talking about in your topic sub-title

 

Yawn...

[Guest NoCalMike]

I think what Tyler is trying to say is that each is horrible, and you can't claim that because one thing is less evil, that it isn't evil at all, or it can be justified.

[Guest Powerplay]

So, you're saying that losing your family and the pain of not knowing their fate is better than dying yourself?

 

I can't, necessarily, say the same thing.

Well, Tyler, in the case mentioned the US never had any intent on causing physical harm to those involved. In the case of a suicide/homicide bomber, the whole idea behind it is to kill as many random innocent people as possible. I fail to see how both are equally evil here.

 

Edit: Just saw what NoCal posted, and I understand the reasoning, but still don't agree with it.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

I'm not justifying anything. Frankly, I don't care -- much like 99% of the threads he starts, I just laugh at it and move on with my life.

 

Oh, Power, the justification is that Bush is President. And that's why we need Howie in the White House, damnit.

 

Duh...

[Guest NoCalMike]

Frankly, I am not sure what any of this has to do with Howard Dean? Look, I understand that not everything posted is going to piss you off, but this tactic does seem a little excessive. I mean I am sure the Army had no intention to harm or kill, but just cause you and I know that, doesn't mean some Iraqi person in fear also knows that, and it doesn't make it an acceptable form of strategy. You also have to think that if things like this are actually being reported and exposed, what else is going on that we don't already and might possibly never know about?

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

KKK is just flame-baiting, leave him alone.

 

The fact remains that this is horrendous, even though you couldn't care less. Kidnapping family members is a war crime, no matter how you spin it. You guys are the same ones who crowed about Iraq's war crimes (parading POWs in front of television cameras), but you couldn't give two shits about an atrocity that in which we engage. That is utter hypocrisy, quite frankly, and it's comical to see conservatives just shrug this off as justified.

 

Whether or not you intend to kill the person is irrelevant, kidnapping is inherently WRONG. It's an evil act. It's an act of terror. I don't care if they're not loading the wives and children full of explosives and sending them into crowds, frankly; I never said that isn't wrong, either. The fact is that THIS is an evil act.

 

The hypocrisy is that nobody cares.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

Hey Tyler, I'm not flame-baiting.

 

Don't go whining to a mod just because somebody admits to not taking 99% of the drivel you say seriously.

 

Hmmm, taking someone that thinks your full of crap and claiming it's a partisan attack.

 

No wonder Howie scooped you up...

Edited July 29, 2003 by kkktookmybabyaway

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

FYI: I didn't report anything to a mod, because I don't care. However, your dumb-shit little "OMG LETS VOTE FOR DEAN" comments are the very definition of flame baiting.

 

Hmmm, taking someone that thinks your full of crap and claiming it's a partisan attack.

 

No, you're simply mocking the fact that I support Dean. You made absolutely no cogent argument about the topic at hand.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

Seeing how you are a lackey for the Dean camp, I am assuming you are showing us the errors of the Bush administration.

 

Keep this attitude up and I may change my vote from Howie to someone else.

 

Oh, and I made my argument -- if you can call it that. I yawned...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Seeing how you are a lackey for the Dean camp, I am assuming you are showing us the errors of the Bush administration.

 

No, actually, I'm hardly a lackey for the campaign. I'm not getting paid to do what I do for the campaign (which is, admittedly, not much), and this particular post has nothing to do with our administration. While I think Bush should speak out against it if he knows what's good for him, he won't. The point was more to prove you "OMG IRAQ WAR CRIMES STOP IT LOLZ" people are hypocrites. Point proven.

 

Keep this attitude up and I may change my vote from Howie to someone else.

 

EL OH EL

 

Oh, and I made my argument -- if you can call it that. I yawned...

 

And what an astutely ignorant reply it was. Congrats.

[Guest Cerebus]

Ok, this info is a bit sketchy for me. They stick in one paragraph of a larger article and I have found no references in any other major news reports (AP, Reuters, CNN, MSNBC, NYT etc.). I'm not 100% sure this is confirmed since it should be much bigger news (like the 4 soldiers getting an article 29 for abusing POWs). *shrug*