US Troops Kidnapping for Intel

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

OMG Iraq war crimes?

 

You are comparing what happened in your first paragraph to what Iraq does/did?

 

Oooookay.

 

Oh, and if I am flame-baiting can a mod please PM me? I don't want to get a warning over my love for Howie...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I already said I wasn't reporting you, so do whatever you wish.

 

And yes, considering everyone yelled and screamed about Iraq parading US POWs on television, but you could care less about US hostage-taking.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

I wasn't talking to you regarding my last post -- I just wanted to make sure I really wasn't flame-baiting. Jesus.

 

Oh, I will give you props for making some $ while pimping Howie -- at least your time won't be totally wasted...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Ok, this info is a bit sketchy for me. They stick in one paragraph of a larger article and I have found no references in any other major news reports (AP, Reuters, CNN, MSNBC, NYT etc.). I'm not 100% sure this is confirmed since it should be much bigger news (like the 4 soldiers getting an article 29 for abusing POWs). *shrug*

Did you READ the article? It was an interview with an officer about his tactics, which was part of a broader article about "tough tactics" the soldiers are using. WaPo is a national publication; they don't just make stuff up.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Yeah, unlike the New York Times, which is a community college student-published newspaper.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

With their journalistic integrity, they may as well be

[Guest Ripper]

It's not right, but to say it's equal to walking into a crowded area and blowing yourself, is ridiculous.

Tee-hee...you said blowing yourself...

 

 

Ahem...

 

I do think that if this report is true, then there is a major bit of hypocracy here. After listening to the government officials get on television and talk about how the Iraqi government was kidnapping families to force soilders to fight and how disgusting it was, it would be just pathetic to find out that they did the same thing.

 

At the same time, this is a war. Ugly shit gets done. My only problem is the bitching when ugly shit happens to the US side. Too much information and grandstanding for the public is going on, and it opens itself up for critisizm like this.

[Guest wrestlingbs]

I'm not surprised this happens, but I'm still disgusted... I hope somebody makes the US held accountable for stuff like this, because as others have said in this thread, this is the same kind of stuff we criticised thew Iraq gov't for doing.

[Guest Vyce]

This gets edited because I hit "Reply" before I was ready. So there.

[Guest Vyce]

So, you're saying that losing your family and the pain of not knowing their fate is better than dying yourself?

 

I can't, necessarily, say the same thing.

You've either misunderstood me or deliberately misinterpreted my words.

 

It's quite simple: death is ALWAYS involved in a suicide bombing.

 

Death is not necessarily involved in a kidnapping.

 

So while both crimes have victims, the fact that a kidnapping does not necessarily = death - and that fact alone - makes, in MY opinion, it is a lesser crime.

 

I, of course, am not on shaky basis with this belief, either. The legislatures of this country have not seen fit to make kidnapping a crime punishable by sentences nearly as severe as murder.

 

Oh, and for the record: I don't give a shit about the bombers themselves. I'm not sure where you got that from.

[Guest SideFXs]

But, if a tree falls in the woods with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?

Tyler is taking Philosophy 101.

 

To tell you the truth, I think you can hear the tree make a sound, when it falls.

 

Especially if that tree was cut down with a 'Cougar grab-wedge felling device.'

 

You know, that huge diesel tractor that shears a massive tree at its base, like a pair of scissors. And then, with its hydraulic wedge, rips off all the bark and branches in one continuous motion, exposing only the useful trunk of the tree. A process that takes about 1 minute. Then it is tossed in a bundle of other 500-year-old trees and hauled out by sky-cranes to a massive Weyerhaeuser plant, in the middle of a rain forest clearing, in Brazil.

 

Yeah, you would probably hear it fall and make a sound Tyler.

[Swift Terror 0]

This Col. is busting his ass for America, putting his life on the line. None of us over here sitting on our asses in front of our computer can know how we would handle ourselves in his situation. I hope he keeps his kick-ass attitude and I hope he and his men come home safe.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

But, if a tree falls in the woods with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?

Tyler is taking Philosophy 101.

 

To tell you the truth, I think you can hear the tree make a sound, when it falls.

 

Especially if that tree was cut down with a 'Cougar grab-wedge felling device.'

 

You know, that huge diesel tractor that shears a massive tree at its base, like a pair of scissors. And then, with its hydraulic wedge, rips off all the bark and branches in one continuous motion, exposing only the useful trunk of the tree. A process that takes about 1 minute. Then it is tossed in a bundle of other 500-year-old trees and hauled out by sky-cranes to a massive Weyerhaeuser plant, in the middle of a rain forest clearing, in Brazil.

 

Yeah, you would probably hear it fall and make a sound Tyler.

PROVE IT.

 

And no, I'm not. That's silly FRESHMAN LEVEL STUFF LOLZ

 

 

[Guest Ripper]

This Col. is busting his ass for America, putting his life on the line. None of us over here sitting on our asses in front of our computer can know how we would handle ourselves in his situation. I hope he keeps his kick-ass attitude and I hope he and his men come home safe.

Just because we aren't in battle doesn't mean that we can't frown upon horrible behaviour.

 

If the media and military hadn't used the exact same facts to say that "This proves how evil the Iraqi government is by kidnapping families and making the soldiers fight" then I would say its bad but part of war. But now, by doing the same thing, what does that say of us. "Oh its not evil because we weren't really going to kill them" is a easy out, but basically the same tatics are being used.

[Guest Lil Naitch]

If it gets killers off the streets, do it.

 

That is all.

[Guest JMA]

I don't believe the end justifies the means in this case. That's all I have to say.

[Guest mst3krules]

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought they were kidnapping for the computer software chip company Intel...

[Guest EricMM]

You know, that huge diesel tractor that shears a massive tree at its base, like a pair of scissors. And then, with its hydraulic wedge, rips off all the bark and branches in one continuous motion, exposing only the useful trunk of the tree. A process that takes about 1 minute. Then it is tossed in a bundle of other 500-year-old trees and hauled out by sky-cranes to a massive Weyerhaeuser plant, in the middle of a rain forest clearing, in Brazil.

 

[Guest Muzz]

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought they were kidnapping for the computer software chip company Intel...

Yup, that's what I thought. In which case, that would be seriously fucked up.

 

How did you get to comparing kidnapping with suicide bombing? I think the bigger issue is that the US Armed Forces have stooped to kidnapping people.

 

In which case, eh, it's a war, do whatever you can. Even though it's this war...

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Taking hostages is wrong. Even if there is no intent to harm them. It might not be as evil as a suicide bomber but it is evil and it is a War Crime.

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

From what I'm seeing, they're not taking hostages. They're detaining people for information and then telling a white lie because it's convenient. They're not actually *kidnapping* people, they're doing what they'd normally do ... and taking advantage of the situation.

 

"Well, we're gonna be getting info from the anyway, might as well see if we can flush out some other people we're looking for."

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

"If you want your family released, turn yourself in."

 

sounds like a hostage situation to me Dutch. Were they free to go whenever they pleased? Or were they held against their will?

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

They were being detained for information is what the read said. I'm not exactly sure what that entails, myself. If I'm correct, most police departments bring people in for questioning, but I don't believe they're allowed to hold them against their will. Of course, I'm not expert and I don't know if the military operates the same way, nor do I have a copy of the Geneva Conventions handy.

 

The United States military is well aware of the Geneva Conventions though and full well knows that it can't take hostages and it would be beyond stupid for them to flaunt such a thing publicly (and despite what some might think, the U.S. military is NOT that stupid.) It sounds like a simple bluff to me.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

They were being detained for information is what the read said. I'm not exactly sure what that entails, myself. If I'm correct, most police departments bring people in for questioning, but I don't believe they're allowed to hold them against their will. Of course, I'm not expert and I don't know if the military operates the same way, nor do I have a copy of the Geneva Conventions handy.

 

The United States military is well aware of the Geneva Conventions though and full well knows that it can't take hostages and it would be beyond stupid for them to flaunt such a thing publicly (and despite what some might think, the U.S. military is NOT that stupid.) It sounds like a simple bluff to me.

It may be just a "Bluff" but when you take someone forcibly from their home and hold them until another person gives into your demands that is hostage taking and blackmail.

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

All in all, I prefer them "taking hostages" then, provided that I"m correct in the assumption that they're only bluffing.

[Guest Powerplay]

They were being detained for information is what the read said.  I'm not exactly sure what that entails, myself.  If I'm correct, most police departments bring people in for questioning, but I don't believe they're allowed to hold them against their will.  Of course, I'm not expert and I don't know if the military operates the same way, nor do I have a copy of the Geneva Conventions handy.

 

The United States military is well aware of the Geneva Conventions though and full well knows that it can't take hostages and it would be beyond stupid for them to flaunt such a thing publicly (and despite what some might think, the U.S. military is NOT that stupid.)  It sounds like a simple bluff to me.

It may be just a "Bluff" but when you take someone forcibly from their home and hold them until another person gives into your demands that is hostage taking and blackmail.

Because, as usual, it had to be forcible. Instead of just coming up to the house and asking if they would come with them for questioning, they kicked down the door, guns blazing, and stole them like Viking raiders of ol'. Christ, calm it, okay? They picked them up, drove them to a base, and kept them in a tent with an American Soldier for a day. They had no intention of keeping them or killing them. This is more of a field trip, not a hostage situation.

 

And allow me to laugh at JMA's assertion:

 

I don't believe the end justifies the means in this case. That's all I have to say.

 

To gain valuable information on dangerous people and weapons, we took two people and detained them for about a day. We didn't hurt anyone, we didn't kill anyone. "The means" here were totally safe, and the information that we gathered could save lives. What's wrong with this?

[Guest The Flying Dutchman]

Christ, calm it, okay?

 

He wasn't really all that riled up to begin with ...

[Guest Powerplay]

Christ, calm it, okay?

 

He wasn't really all that riled up to begin with ...

I guess so. I suppose I just read it differently.

 

Allow me to pose this question to the people who think this was horrible:

 

If there wasn't a safer way to bring this guy in, would you have tried it? And if there were a safer way to do this, do you think the Army would have tried it already?