Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 The problem with claiming that Benoit can bring fans into a match based on what's going on in the ring is that you don't need to be particularily good at in-ring work to do it, and Benoit's nowhere NEAR the best at it. Hogan can take a shit match, and make it something you'll remember for 10 years when he's on. Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Orndorff, Hogan/WARRIOR for godssakes. Hogan creates emotion through the old-school face/heel dynamic and the people respond. I'll say this, and I don't care how many flames I get because I think it's true. When HHH could go back in 2000/2001 he had the best mind in wrestling. Period. There was no one better at using subtlety to tell a story with a match. Even today you can see how he subtly "buries" opponents (Booker at 'Mania). He knows what fans want to see in a match and he has great great timing. Of course now, he's only concerned with his spot. I've yet to see a Benoit match with the pure emotion of Rock/Austin at WM 17, either.
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Hogan can take a shit match, and make it something you'll remember for 10 years when he's on. Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Orndorff, Hogan/WARRIOR for godssakes. Hogan creates emotion through the old-school face/heel dynamic and the people respond. A couple of holes in using that in correlation to today's WWE: 1. Hogan was the sole focus of the promotion back then. 2. There were insane amounts of hype surrounding each of those matches. 3. That was back when a friend stabbing a face in the back was actually shocking. 4. All of those matches weren't dead in the beginning and then the crowd got into it by the actions of the workers involved because they were already into it beforehand like Goodear stated eariler.
Guest BionicRedneck Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 HHH was never the best at ANYTHING. EVER. Even in 2000 when he "could go" Benoit smoked him.
Guest wildpegasus Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Quote Mr Zsasz "I've yet to see a Benoit match with the pure emotion of Rock/Austin at WM 17, either" All This without the mega hype job Rock/Austin got Benoit vs Sasuke J-Cup finals Benoit vs Austin Edmonton Benoit vs Austin Calgary Benoit/Jericho vs Austin/HHH Raw Benoit vs Kevin Sullivan Falls Count Anywhere Benoit vs Eddy Guerrero Nitro (Right before Halloween Havoc)-Also the WCW US title tournament match Benoit vs Angle Rumble Benoit vs Dean Malenko -Early 98 plus the #1 WCW heavweight contender match Benoit vs Brad Armstrong from the Clash-for buiding real emotion during the course of a match with no hoopla at all (Same thing with Benoit vs Eddy Double KO WCWSN) Benoit vs Bret Hart WCW Tournament Final for the heavyweight belt There are others as well
Guest godthedog Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 The problem with claiming that Benoit can bring fans into a match based on what's going on in the ring is that you don't need to be particularily good at in-ring work to do it, and Benoit's nowhere NEAR the best at it. no, actually, in that situation the only thing that matters is your in-ring work. that was the whole point. benoit can start a match with nobody caring, and can make them care. Hogan can take a shit match, and make it something you'll remember for 10 years when he's on. Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Orndorff, Hogan/WARRIOR for godssakes. Hogan creates emotion through the old-school face/heel dynamic and the people respond. hogan didn't get ANYBODY into any of those matches solely because of what was going on in the ring. the crowd was into it because of the hype. period. make hogan an upper-midcarder, take away his promos, NONE of those would've happened. hogan sold them on the matches before they saw the matches. nobody enjoys a hogan match based solely on the in-ring work. as said before, i ask you to point to a hogan match where the crowd started out lukewarm, & he got the crowd red-hot purely by being so good at wrestling during the course of the match.
Guest Goodear Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Here's the problem with the Benoit can make you care during a match argument. You have to pay to see the match first and care second. That doesn't seem to me as though he's drawing new people into the building, just that the people there like him enough to let him get them into matches. I fail to see why its considered a weakness that Hogan had people pumped from the get go.
Guest godthedog Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 oh, i don't think it's a weakness in hogan. it's a rare talent, & more power to him for it. this is just an extension of the "charisma" argument, trying to explain that benoit has in-ring charisma by showing he can suck people into a match.
Guest wildpegasus Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 On Goodear's comments: It's not a weakness that Hogan had people pumped from the word go. All the more power to him On Benoit drawing people in: You need to have variety on your card to draw people in and keep them happy. For example, I wouldn't have gone to a rescent WWE show if Benoit wasn't there. However, I did because Benoit was there. You don't go to a restaurnant or a library and find one thing to eat or one thing to read. If you do, you'll lose buisness. Likewise, you don't have just one type of wrestler at a wrestling card. That's just bad buisness. I've seen the WWE stop people from watching the show because of all their concentration on the entertainment side of wrestling. In this time of struggle for the WWE, they need people like Benoit or Eddy to keep the wrestling fans (who are disguted with the entertainment side) base more than ever.
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 I agree with what you both (W.P and Good) said to an extent. I think each "Aura" is crucial to the improvment and success of the wrestling business... Ric Flair was the Chris Benoit/Eddy Guerrero of his time but let's face it...He needed his Dusty Rhodes/Lex Luger/Sting to sell himself... Ricky Steamboat wasn't drawing flies...Thus the premise of the Two great wrestlers fighting for the gold wasn't selling The Charismatic Everyman like Rhodes was...and the Physical Speciman like Luger was...and the Charismatic Wonder Boy like Sting was... Simply Put...Wrestling needs it Benoits but it's equally needs it's Hogans to keep business striving...
Guest The Hamburglar Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Quote Mr Zsasz "I've yet to see a Benoit match with the pure emotion of Rock/Austin at WM 17, either" All This without the mega hype job Rock/Austin got Benoit vs Sasuke J-Cup finals Benoit vs Austin Edmonton Benoit vs Austin Calgary Benoit vs Angle Rumble Can't comment on the others, but outside of possibly the Edmonton match, none of these cases come close to Rock-Austin in pure emotional terms. Benoit-Sasuke was cool as fuck, but don't try to tell me that Benoit's pegasus character was anything other than bland, bland, bland. Anyways, Chris Benoit is awesome. But in no way is he better at any kind of promo ever than Kurt Angle. And at the present time, he happens to utterly fall behind Eddie Guerrero both in pure wrestling terms and as a complete package.
Cherry Blossom Viscount Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 HHH was never the best at ANYTHING. EVER. Even in 2000 when he "could go" Benoit smoked him. You do know it was HHH that booked the Power Trip/Canadian Chris's tag match don't you? HHH booked every aspect of that match, right down to the little hope spots and heat segments. I seriously doubt Benoit could do that. Also, I have NEVER seen a Benoit match no one was into, turn into thousands of screaming fans on their feet. Never. I've seen them turn into boring chants and indifference in the end, but never a screaming mass of people thinking Benoit is awesome or the match is awesome. Every match I've seen of Benoit's where the crowd was into it started with the crowd being into it. He also always goes against an opponent that is more over than he, thus bringing extra crowd heat into the match and that just picks up by the end. But that's pretty much how most wrestling matches work. I want to see Benoit go against Orlando Jordon and have the arena start off in total silence and by the end giving both guys a standing O. That should be easy seeing as how Benoit has more in-ring charsima than Angle, Rock, Hogan, HBK, HHH, Steve Austin, and Chris Jericho.
Cherry Blossom Viscount Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Anyways, Chris Benoit is awesome. But in no way is he better at any kind of promo ever than Kurt Angle. And at the present time, he happens to utterly fall behind Eddie Guerrero both in pure wrestling terms and as a complete package. He also falls behing Jericho as a complete package as well.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Austin vs. Benoit from Smackdown was one of the _hottest_ crowds I have ever heard. You may write that off in being Benoits 'hometown', but then again, Austin vs. Angle - Unforgiven - Americas hero makes good in his hometown after 9/11 - wasn't near it.
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Anyways, Chris Benoit is awesome. But in no way is he better at any kind of promo ever than Kurt Angle. And at the present time, he happens to utterly fall behind Eddie Guerrero both in pure wrestling terms and as a complete package. He also falls behing Jericho as a complete package as well. and I'd Also put Rock in that Complete package pile to... He can work a fun match...Sell like mofo...Carry his Weight in the ring...Work the Promos like no other (foley and austin and flair are the only common exceptions)...he can draw... Sure...He might never have a technical sound scientific match like Benoit and Guerrero can bust out but he can make a match special...and that is an Hard Thing to do.
Cherry Blossom Viscount Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Austin vs. Benoit from Smackdown was one of the _hottest_ crowds I have ever heard. You may write that off in being Benoits 'hometown', but then again, Austin vs. Angle - Unforgiven - Americas hero makes good in his hometown after 9/11 - wasn't near it. Two things... 1. Benoit's home town 2. Steve Austin Of vourse the crowd would be hot. But that's not really the point anyway. People are saying that Benoit can take a mtch no one is into and have people on their feet by the end. I doubt this match was one of those since Austin was a super-tweener and Benoit was pretty over as a face. No different than a Hogan match everyone was already into.
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 I don't wanna Jump on Benoit's Nuts but he carried Sid to an semi-Over Cincy crowd after about 2 hours of absolute suck
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 I've yet to see a Benoit match with the pure emotion of Rock/Austin at WM 17, either. I was responding to this, not to the wacky "bringing a match from dead to alive" deal, don't mix me in with that shit. Angle vs. Austin was 1. Angles hometown 2. Austin Hell, Austin beating up on JR was 1. JR's hometown 2. Austin Yet you put these together, COMBINED, and maybe you'd get the heat for Benoit vs. Austin. So you can't just write that off for "hometown hero" and "Austin", it was a strictly Benoit-related heat. Plus I hear Austin/Benoit drew well on house shows as well. Don't have any figures to support that, but I heard it from someone who does
Guest FileCabinet Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 I have NEVER seen a Benoit match no one was into, turn into thousands of screaming fans on their feet. Never. I've seen them turn into boring chants and indifference in the end, but never a screaming mass of people thinking Benoit is awesome or the match is awesome. Every match I've seen of Benoit's where the crowd was into it started with the crowd being into it. Royal Rumble 2003: Angle vs. Benoit The awful Triple H vs. Steiner match before it killed the crowd. It was up to Benoit and Angle to wake them up. The result was a standing ovation for the loser of the match, Chris Benoit.
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 well thank JESUS...for that match... For the next 10 years Benoit Marks will go on and on and one about the fucking Standing O... Jeff Hardy got a Standing O once...why don't we talk about THAT?
Cherry Blossom Viscount Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 So I'm guessing Angle had nothing to do with the match? Like I said, put an un-over jobber in there and see what Benoit cann do. Angle was super over at that time. There was crowd heat in the beginning of the match. Benoit didn't pull off any miracles.
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 and again...They will tell you "BUT HE GOT THE STANDING O!" like we haven't heard it the first 294091 times... They were standing Oing the match...Benoit was just still in the ring... They did the same for The No Mercy Ladder Match for Jeff and Matt.. but it was the MATCH they gave the standing o for...
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 However... Don't get me wrong...Benoit deserved every single clapping hand he got that night...
Cherry Blossom Viscount Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 well thank JESUS...for that match... For the next 10 years Benoit Marks will go on and on and one about the fucking Standing O... Jeff Hardy got a Standing O once...why don't we talk about THAT? Because Choken, you silly boy, Jeff Hardy doesn't have more in ring chrisma than Angle, Hogan, Rock, HHH, Jericho, HBK, and even Booker T. But Benoit was does. *Sips some Benoit nut juice* Ahhhhh, good stuff, good stuff.
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Actually...Benoit DOES have more charisma then boring ass bland Booker...at least in my mind..
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Benoit vs Scott Armstrong was kinda like that. Benoit vs. Sullivan picked up greatly heat-wise throughout the course of the match at GAB 96. Not that I condone pushing Benoit as the guy who can save crowds, because that's not quite the hat I would put on him cause there are instances of the crowd shitting on the match (Benoit vs. Malenko, Hog Wild 96 comes to mind - though they didn't so much shit on the match as they were just completely uninterested in it)
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 The Standing Ovation at the Rumble was a vindication for Benoit. So many years of "The Crowd doesn't care about in-ring work, effort, etc, they only care about charisma and workign the mic" as the main reason to keep Benoit away from the title. Here, the crowd shows that they DO care, that they DO appreciate it, and still some people wish to completely ignore it and write Benoit off once-again.
Guest Choken One Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 Benoit vs Scott Armstrong was kinda like that. Benoit vs. Sullivan picked up greatly heat-wise throughout the course of the match at GAB 96. Not that I condone pushing Benoit as the guy who can save crowds, because that's not quite the hat I would put on him cause there are instances of the crowd shitting on the match (Benoit vs. Malenko, Hog Wild 96 comes to mind - though they didn't so much shit on the match as they were just completely uninterested in it) Well...Of course... No one would in their right mind, if they had a choice send Benoit to energize the crowd... However...consider that the road wild crowd consisted mid 40 drunk Bikers who came for beer...and cheap nasty chicks...and Hogan. Not class choice wrestling.
Cherry Blossom Viscount Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 People prrobably think I hate Benoit, I don't. I just hate how overrated he has become. This sin't the Benoit of the 90's here. It's a lesser Benoit that people are hyping up as if he can live up to his former gretaness. I'm a HHH mark, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say HHH is putting on ***** matches evey night, has more charisma than the freakin' Rock, and is saving crowds by putting on awesome matches all by his lonesome. Hell, even I know HHH can kill a crowd. But I'm entertained, so screw the rest. If you're entertained, why try to convince others that the rest of the world is feeling the same, if they aren't? Your enjoyment is what should matter the most.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted August 6, 2003 Report Posted August 6, 2003 I want to know where it was said that Benoit had more charisma than the Rock.
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