Guest Ray Report post Posted August 12, 2003 (edited) I've noticed that the ***** rating is given out far too often by many people. I feel it should be reserved for matches which are essentially flawless. What matches do you think are worthy of such a high rating? To this point, I have only seen a few matches worthy of it: Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mitsuhara Misawa - 6/8/90 Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada - 12/16/88 Chris Benoit vs. Great Sasuke - Super J Cup 1994 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat - Clash 6 Of course, there are many matches which I have not seen. I might have forgotten something as well.... My list isn't too large. Edited August 27, 2003 by Ray Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BAR Report post Posted August 12, 2003 I'm a bit more generous than you, but definately don't whore it. Kawada/Taue vs. Misawa/Akiyama 6/12/96 is easy *****. So is Misawa vs. Kawada 3/6/94. Clash VI too. Maybe Bret & Owen from WMX. Being the resident DK mark I'd give 21/4/83 the big rating, even though technically it may not be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted August 12, 2003 Haven't posted at this place in forever, but what the Hell. In chron. order: 11/26/92 - Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki 04/02/93 - Hokuto vs. Kandori 12/03/93 - Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 06/03/94 - Misawa vs. Kawada 06/09/95 - Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 12/06/96 - Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue 06/27/98 - Tamura vs. Kohsaka Just missing the cut.... 06/11/76 - Tsuruta vs. Funk 07/29/93 - Hansen vs. Kobashi 01/20/97 - Misawa vs. Kobashi 01/22/97 - Han vs. Tamura Other matches that are really fucking close.... 06/05/89 - Tsuruta vs. Tenryu 06/08/90 - Tsuruta vs. Misawa 09/01/90 - Tsuruta vs. Misawa 04/30/92 - Liger vs. Samurai 02/28/93 - Hansen vs. Kawada 07/02/93 - Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa 11/20/94 - Kong vs. Toyota 10/15/95 - Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 01/21/96 - Samurai vs. Ohtani 06/07/96 - Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 06/12/98 - Kawada vs. Kobashi So yeah, that's about it. Hokuto/Kandori is tops, though a case could be made for any of the 5 star matches I listed, since they're all transcendent in their own way. Best U.S. match I've seen is Eddy/Rey from Halloween Havoc '97, which is around 4.5-4.75 - can't decide, really. What's cool, though, is that those uber-geniuses finally made good use of the footage they bought from WCW and put this nifty little match on DVD (even if they missed the boat by not putting on the Dragon/Rey from WW3 '96, which is quite the classic, too). Whatever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toshiaki Koala 0 Report post Posted August 13, 2003 Now I'm as big a Puro fan as the next guy, but really, people. To answer your question, yes, the rating is used too often. Especially with ladder matches. Did any of the TLC matches deserve *****? Yes. But not every match involving Edge, Christian, and a ladder is an instant classic. Same with Michaels vs. Ramon. Their WMX match was entertaining, but highly overrated (especially compared to their Summerslam contest, which may actually be *****). I'm no big authority on wrestling, but here are a few matches I've seen that I could consider *****: Bret vs. Owen - WMX HHH vs. Cactus - Royal Rumble Eddy vs. Rey - HH 97 Benoit vs. Sasuke - J Cup 94 Misawa vs. Kobashi - (not sure of the date, there was a rana off the apron near the end) The closest free TV match was probably Benoit vs. Austin from Smackdown. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted August 13, 2003 TLC's deserve *****? No way. The SS95 Ladder match is NOT better than the WM10 match. I haven't seen a lot of these Japanese matches Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toshiaki Koala 0 Report post Posted August 13, 2003 I meant to say that one or two of them may have been *****. Sorry if I was unclear about that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dmann2000 Report post Posted August 13, 2003 Uhhh I just wrote an article examing the troubles with star ratings Right here...The Trouble With Snowflakes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted August 13, 2003 I've never rated a match 5 stars because I believe there's always room for improvement. These are some of the closest from what I've seen though: Hokuto vs Kandori Dreamslam-probably the best match ever Hanson vs Kobashi 7/29/93 Misawa vs Kawada 6/94 Kobashi vs Misawa 1/20/97 Liger vs Otani Mar/96 Liger vs Sasuke J-Cup Benoit vs Sasuke J-Cup Toyota vs Kong-Nov 20/94 AJW vs JWP 93 marathon match Benoit vs Bret-tribute match Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EL DANDY~! 0 Report post Posted August 13, 2003 And if I may say so, Mr. Mann, that was a great piece of internet literary work, not unlike some of my works over there, but I think it's weird how people throw out the big ***** out there a lot. There aren't too many great matches now, and probably won't be for a while... Great article...and now...my list From Japan Jumbo/Tenryu-6/5/89 Jumbo/Misawa-6/8/90, with the rematch coming very close...methinks in Sep of the same year Misawa/Kawada-6/3/94 Kawada/Taue vs. Misawa/Kobashi-6/9/95 Same pairing-10/15/95 Kawada/Taue vs. Misawa/Akiyama-12/6/96 Kobashi/Misawa-1/20/97 The lone joshi match I've watched is Kandori/Hokuto...and it's ***** even without knowing the story. Absolutely harrowing. Also, Wolvie...no love for Sasuke/Benoit? I mean...it's not even in your "Just Close" list... From the US Steamboat/Savage-WM 3 All three Flair/Steamboat's in 89 Rey/Eddie-HH 97 Benoit/Angle-RR 2003 Benoit/Angle vs. Rey/Edge-No Mercy 2002 There are many that come close...but too many to list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dmann2000 Report post Posted August 13, 2003 Thank you El DANDY~, and I can see the arguement and yes, I do feel that ***** has been getting tossed out more and more frequently, with less reasoning behind the grades. I don't see ***** in Austin/HHH from NWO 2001 (Although I do like the match) and yet I do see it in Austin/Rock from WM XVII, go figure. The way I see it (because I was a film major) a ***** wrestling match is like a film that gets ****, the match might not be flawless but it for me when I say a match is ***** it exemplifies everything I love in wrestling. A short list of my ***** 2 things- I've been mainly NA, no puro, if you guys want to get me into it feel free to contact me and offer some suggestions. 2)I'll admit I'm more of a storyline fan (I sometimes view matches like short films), so for some matches workrate goes out the window. WarGames 1992 Royal Rumble 1992 Austin/Hart WM 13 Savage/Steamboat WM 3 Flair/Steamboat Clash VI Magnum/Tully Starrcade 85 Michaels/Foley MindGames Austin/Rock WM 17 Angle/Benoit RR 03 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted August 14, 2003 The problem with 5 star matches is that once you watch the best of puroresu you realise that's there's not too much stuff elsewhere that compares to it. What I'm saying is that once you see Hokuto vs Kandori which is often cited as 5* how can anything else be even close to 5*? Think about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest oxymoron Report post Posted August 14, 2003 Here are some matches that I think are pretty close to 5 stars that haven't been listed: Casas vs. Dandy vs. Santo (Hair vs. Hair vs. Mask 96) Hokuto/Kandori vs. Nakano/Kong: AJW Queendom 94 Toyota/Hasegawa vs. Inoue/Inoue: AJW Championship 95 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EL DANDY~! 0 Report post Posted August 14, 2003 Kandori vs. Hokuto is the greatest joshi match ever, period. No other match touches it. HOWEVER...when comparing it to the greatest puro or lucha or US matches...that's comparing apples to oranges, right there... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest two_tuff_toddy Report post Posted August 15, 2003 here is my list off the top of my head. Misawa vs Kobashi - 1/20/97 Misawa vs Kawada - 6/3/94 Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue - 6/9/95 Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue - 12/3/93 Misawa/Akiyama vs Kawada/Taue - 12/6/96 Hansen vs Kobashi - 7/29/93 Hokuto vs Kandori - 4/2/93 Liger vs Samurai - 4/30/92 Benoit vs Samurai - 1993 TOSJ Benoit vs Sasuke - 1994 J-CUP Ultimo vs Ohtani - 1996 J-Crown Flair vs Steamboat - 1989 Wrestlewar Flair vs Steamboat - Clash VI 1987 Wargames 1992 Wargames Rey vs Eddy - HH 97 Flair vs Funk - Clash IX Bret vs Benoit - Owen Tribute Savage vs Steamboat - WM III Bret vs Owen - WM X/94 Summerslam/ Ironman 7-94 Bret vs Flair - Ironman 1-93 Bret vs Austin - 96 SS/WM XIII Austin vs Benoit - 5/31/01 Smackdown Rock vs Austin - WM XVII 1992 Royal Rumble Shawn vs Razor - WM X Bret vs Bulldog - 92 SSlam HHH vs Cactus - 00 RR/00 No Way Out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JHawk 0 Report post Posted August 15, 2003 While it isn't the only ***** match I've ever seen, the only one I ever reviewed and saw as ***** was the Owen Hart Tribute Match on Nitro Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted August 16, 2003 As for the Bret vs Benoit match one thing overlooked about it is that it plays BIG time off of their previous Nitro matches. The commercial breaks also add to the match as Benoit works over Bret's arm in the first one and Bret works over Benoit's back in the second one featuring a reversal of a harsh whip into the steel barrier outside the ring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coffin Surfer 0 Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Kandori vs. Hokuto is the greatest joshi match ever, period. No other match touches it. HOWEVER...when comparing it to the greatest puro or lucha or US matches...that's comparing apples to oranges, right there... I hope your not saying that isn't fair to compare Hokuto/Kandori to non Joshi matches, because of it's style. If your gonna preach that bull shit, you might as well say you can't compare Hokuto/Kandori to other Joshi matches, because let's face it, Hokuto/Kandori is worked differently than most All Japan Women singles matches. Pro style is pro sytle, while there are different variations it's more like comparing red apples to green apples. Your still rating matches by the same standards(I hope) of story telling, selling, pacing, match construction...etc. Apples to oranges would be like Pro Style and Shoot Style, though you can still compare them if you want you. Just because one style is more advanced is no reason to not compare it to it's more simpler counter parts, though let's face it most of the bottom top 50 All Japan stuff is still better than most of the best U.S. matches. Take for example Kawada/Kobashi 4/93 which isn't even considered top 20 All Japan, but truth be told, kicks the ass of anything Ric Flair ever did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted August 16, 2003 Wrestling is wrestling. Whatever the style the basic components are the same. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Real Nosferatu Report post Posted August 17, 2003 While it isn't the only ***** match I've ever seen, the only one I ever reviewed and saw as ***** was the Owen Hart Tribute Match on Nitro Awesome Review of the Match JHawk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JaKyL25 Report post Posted August 20, 2003 Here are the only matches I've seen that I would rate *****. Regrettably, I haven't delved into puro yet: 1.) Flair vs. Steamboat, WrestleWar '89 2.) Owen vs. Bret, WM X 3.) Steamboat vs. Flair, Clash VI 4.) Bret vs. Austin, Sur. Series '96 5.) HHH vs. Cactus, Rumble '00 6.) Razor vs. HBK, WM X Close, but no cigar: 7.) Rey vs. Eddie, Havoc '97 8.) Bret vs. Austin, WM 13 9.) HBK vs. Mankind, IYH: Mind Games 10.) HHH vs. Jericho, Fully Loaded '00 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
