Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted August 31, 2003 Well to be honest I was gonna go gloat in the Pedro thread, then I saw perhaps the most unexpected thing I've witnessed all year. As Clemens left the mound at Fenway for his the last time most likely, the crowd gave him one hell of a reception. I was expecting a semi-mixed crowd with the boos louder than the cheers, but about 90% of the crowd was on there feet, clapping and giving him perhaps the nicest farewell you can get. Any crowd that can overlook all thats been done and said, and just simply appreciate all that he gave gets my respect and then some. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2003 I knew they would have the class to do that. It was incredible. Now it's up to Roger to show HIS respect to the team that he was at his best with and go into the HOF wearing the Boston Red Sox Cap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted August 31, 2003 Doubt it, if anything thats a plus for Boston managment and if there's one thing in Boston Clemens isn't looking to please it's the Sox managment. I don't see why it's so hard to accomodate both sides of this thing but it was Roger's career so one would have to say his choice is the one that should count. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iliketurtles 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2003 It was something else to watch. Despite EVERYTHING that happened from 1996 til even now...Clemens is still probably the greatest pitcher in Boston Red Sox history. And like cartman said, it's just a matter of Clemens going in as a Red Sox to the HOF...that would be a great end to a rocky road. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2003 Well see the thing is he has NO choice as to which team he gets inducted into the HOF as. If they choose Boston to be his team, he said before that he wouldnt show up to the ceremony. I think he might change his mind after today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted August 31, 2003 It was never about the fans though, it was about managment. It's not like Clemens hated the fans of Boston and was trying to piss them off. When he looks back on his career, he'd rather see himself in aplace that ended with good memories. I can understand htat. But really, why the one team thing? We all know how things work these days, why can't he go in as a good baseball player who played for more than one team? I think it's really needlessly complicated issue on both sides of the arguement. There's no way he can be in the hall of fame without mention of Boston, there's no way. But why does he have to be immortalized in something that represents a bad memory for himself? Am I the only one who thinks the middle ground here is alot easier reached than it's made out to be? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DerangedHermit 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2003 Boston...respect? Boston and respect, Clemens...does not compute ::head starts to tick and explodes:: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2003 I don't see why it's so hard to accomodate both sides of this thing but it was Roger's career so one would have to say his choice is the one that should count. Are we back to this argument again ? Look.....Clemens should have to obey the rules of the Hall of Fame like everyone else. He is not God's Gift to Baseball, and he should not be allowed to change the rules that everyone else had to put up with. Recently, Gary Carter wanted to go into the Hall of Fame as a Met. The Mets was the team where he was the most happiest, and that was the team he wanted to be remembered for. But those at the Hall of Fame disagreed, and he wound up going in as an Expo. Now tell me, why should Clemens get different treatment ? He shouldn't. I'm not saying I agree with the HOF criteria. If the player's team-request is reasonable, and the guy was on the team for a couple of seasons, I think he should be allowed to choose how he's entered into the Hall of Fame. But that not how it is right now. Everyone in the HoF has had to go through the Hall of Fame process, being entered in a team they may not necessarily want. Clemens is no different. He has to accept the same rules as everyone else and, if he wishes to continue to bitch and moan, he shouldn't be allowed in at all. ......and, as for the topic, good for Clemens. Even though I think he is a miserable, angry, head-hunting asshole, let him get his props now and then retire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted August 31, 2003 My whole point was I don't agree with the system of operations when it comes to the HOF.....:/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2003 But once you give a middle ground for Clemens, you would have to do the same for everyone else that has been inducted into the Hall of Fame, on a team they didn't want, as well as everyone else in the future. You're opening up an entire box of problems for just one person, and no single person - especially Clemens - is worth that much trouble. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red Baron 0 Report post Posted September 1, 2003 Recently, Gary Carter wanted to go into the Hall of Fame as a Met. The Mets was the team where he was the most happiest, and that was the team he wanted to be remembered for. But those at the Hall of Fame disagreed, and he wound up going in as an Expo. Now tell me, why should Clemens get different treatment ? He shouldn't. Ya but it looks better if they actually had something from Montreal, instead of ignoring it, and at least people can actually learn about the Expo's back then, and besides he's gonna be probably the only Expo in there, maybe Larry Walker as well... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted September 1, 2003 Why should Clemens worry about the Red Sox management? Since '96 they have new ownership, and new management. The guys who run the Red Sox now are not the same ones who let him go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted September 1, 2003 I don't see why it's so hard to accomodate both sides of this thing but it was Roger's career so one would have to say his choice is the one that should count. Are we back to this argument again ? Look.....Clemens should have to obey the rules of the Hall of Fame like everyone else. He is not God's Gift to Baseball, and he should not be allowed to change the rules that everyone else had to put up with. Recently, Gary Carter wanted to go into the Hall of Fame as a Met. The Mets was the team where he was the most happiest, and that was the team he wanted to be remembered for. But those at the Hall of Fame disagreed, and he wound up going in as an Expo. Now tell me, why should Clemens get different treatment ? He shouldn't. I'm not saying I agree with the HOF criteria. If the player's team-request is reasonable, and the guy was on the team for a couple of seasons, I think he should be allowed to choose how he's entered into the Hall of Fame. But that not how it is right now. Everyone in the HoF has had to go through the Hall of Fame process, being entered in a team they may not necessarily want. Clemens is no different. He has to accept the same rules as everyone else and, if he wishes to continue to bitch and moan, he shouldn't be allowed in at all. ......and, as for the topic, good for Clemens. Even though I think he is a miserable, angry, head-hunting asshole, let him get his props now and then retire. If he doesn't want to be a Sox, I see no problem with him refusing to attend the ceremony. I think he has a point anyway Most of his success is in Boston granted, but his rings (The only shit that matters) are in NY. And he has a Cy Young here, so it's not like he came to NY and fell apart. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KingPK 0 Report post Posted September 1, 2003 He also won a Cy in Toronto and pitched well there. He started his career in Boston and had most of his biggest successes there (2 20K games, the multiple Cy Youngs, etc.), so there's the case that he should in as a Sox. Personally, I'd prefer no logo on the cap and just listing his accomplishments with all three teams. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted September 1, 2003 He also won a Cy in Toronto and pitched well there. but no jewelry Toronto has nothing. Boston has the biggest claim, but the two Series wins have to be weighed somewhat heavily. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted September 1, 2003 2 series rings cannot outweigh 2 20 strikeout games, 3 Cy Youngs, an MVP, numerous team records, etc. Even REAL Yankee fans agree that Clemens is, and always will be, a Red Sox. He may have had good performances and good numbers in NY since joining the team, but they didn't need him to win. They won without him. He was along for the ride so to speak. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted September 1, 2003 Clemens has softened his stance on the HOF. Since he said he wouldn't show up for his introdcution if he wasn't a Yankee. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted September 1, 2003 2 series rings cannot outweigh 2 20 strikeout games, 3 Cy Youngs, an MVP, numerous team records, etc. . I don't know about that. You join baseball to win the rings. Everything else is icing. That being said, he is a Red Sox. But I think players should have a say. I also don't think team records should really be taken into acount at all. If you are playing for a new expansion team, and you lead the team with four wins, and win one more for the next five years, you were the team leader in wins for six years with a hih of nine. What the actual number is is more important than what team record it beats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted September 1, 2003 The team record does have meaning when the team has 100 years of history. You use common sense to separate the expansion teams from the argument. I disagree with the rings argument. Look at Darren Daulton. He's not a HOF candidate, but lets say he was inducted into the hall. He played 13 1/2 years with the Phillies. Would you put him in as a Marlin because he won the World Series there? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ghettoman Report post Posted September 1, 2003 Um, Clemens is a Yankee. He pitches for the Yankees, he's paid by the Yankees, he's a Yankee. I know it's hard to get, but players can actually be associated with more than one team through out there career. He should be remembered for his entire career, not just one team because he did more there than somewhere else..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted September 2, 2003 That's a good point. Why even have caps in the Hall of Fame? Is it monumentally important to identify a player with a team? The Hall is going to have a bitch of a time if and when Fredd McGriff and Roberto Alomar are elected. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
treble 0 Report post Posted September 2, 2003 I think Alomar's gotta go in as a Blue Jay. The only other team that I think has a case is Baltimore (maybe Cleveland, too, if you're stretching). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted September 2, 2003 If McGriff makes it (i think he will eventually) I think it will be with the Braves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest HungryJack Report post Posted September 2, 2003 One could make a very strong case for Clemens to go in as a jay, barring the 'rings' stance. Clemens pitched his VERY BEST statisical years in Toronto, so if one were to go by performance, Clemens goes in as a Jay. I'm not saying he should, I'd like to see him in with a Sox hat, just stating that he was in fact the best pitcher he ever was with Toronto. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2003 Clemens pitched years every bit as good in Boston. Check out his 1990 season. 21-6, with a 1.93 ERA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
treble 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2003 He pitched awesome those 2 years for the Jays (41-13 over all, 563 Ks, 2 Cy Youngs), but I don't think I want the first Blue Jay in the HOF being a piece of crap like Clemens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2003 Nope. Best wait for Robbie Alomar to get in...I don't see how he can go in as anything other than a Blue Jay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2003 Hmmm....I personally thought Roberto Alomar should go in as a Cleveland Indian. He wasn't on Cleveland AS long, but he did have his best overall seasons there. But who here thinks Alomar should go in as a New York Met ?! *raises hand* Ah, fuck it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
