The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Anya 0]

As far as it being a light, funny ep I thought it worked out better without ever actually seeing SMG. The fact that The Immortal and Buffy were never shown was pretty funny.

[Mole 0]

So what is the Immortal?

[Anya 0]

A plot device.

[Guest Brian]

Yeah, now I want an episode with the Immortal.

[Mole 0]

You know, I was in my friend's room and they were watching the montage of Friends before the series finale. And everyone in the room was getting all sad and shit.

 

I personally hate Friends with a passion and could care less if the show is gone or not. But it pisses me off that the show gets soo much press. I know the show is more popular and appeals to the casual audience more than Angel does, but it still pisses me off.

 

Granted, I don't watch the show, but I am willing to bet that Angel has A LOT more emotion to it, has gone deeper and has a better mythology to it. People just push it aside because it is about a vampire and is a "sci-fi/horror" show. I am not a sci-fi fan but I fell in love with this show.

 

People just don't understand how good the show is and that is one of the reasons why it is getting canned. If the casual audience excepted Angel, they would fall in love with it just like Friends and Angel would get the same amount of press Friends did.

 

Sorry, I had to rant.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

You know Mole, I like this show as much as you. But we both know Friends is a million times more accessible than Angel. The show is on a major network that is aired in all parts of the country, while WB doesn't air in several markets. Friends had the marketing machine of NBC Thursday behind it, while Angel certainly did not.

 

Plus Angel's great continuity makes it very tough for the casual viewer to jump in. Miss an ep or two, and you have no idea what is going on. Miss an ep of Friends, and it's no big deal. Angel also has that campy rep from Buffy. I know I thought Buffy was a garbage show before I ever saw an ep. I remember seeing someone vamp out and thinking "this is retarded" and changing the channel. Both shows are victims of a negative stereotype due to the subject matter.

 

Friends is comfortable, familiar, somewhat formulaic. You know exactly what you're going to get every ep (Joey says something sexual, Phoebe does something crazy, Monica is anal, Chandler says something sarcastic, etc). Friends also isn't usually a downer kind of show, it's pretty lighthearted, not serious, and good for a laugh. I think us Angel fans are emotional masochists in a way, in that Angel can be really depressing sometimes, but we still watch.

 

You know what I'm saying? Friends is much easier to watch and get into (for most people), and had the advantage of being on the same night as Seinfeld. Sucks for Angel, but what can ya do.

[Mole 0]

Yeah, I hear ya. I understand everything you said and I've known that for a long time. I just hate really hate Friends, that's all.

 

I can't even say that Angel is liked more by the critics because well, it isn't. The critics like Angel, but they also like Friends. Plus the fact that Friends won Emmys and Golden Globes while Angel just got nixed all together. If Angel was on HBO/FX/Hell even Fox, they might have gotten some GG nods, maybe even Emmy nods. They defiently should have, atleast.

 

One thing that I think is funny, is that a lot of people who like Friends had watched Buffy before. But it got "stupid" when they went to college, ie season 4, so they stopped watching it. Of course the season hit its peak in season 5, but that is a different story.

[Mole 0]

And Angel got a 2.7 this week.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

The best rating since around the beginning of the season, if I recall.

 

I really, really liked this ep. I agree that the lack of push towards THE apocalypse is a little disappointing, and that the weird transition that LaParkaYourCar pointed out before was a big pain. After the odd ending to last week's episode, this one opened without a whole lot of explanation to what was going down. I assume Gunn's talk with Angel in the teaser was him being miffed about Angel doing the "evil" thing last week, but eh. No real focus on that at all.

 

Overall, it was one of the most fun episodes I've ever seen of this show, and also one of the most interesting. The Illyria stuff always keeps me going and has consistently been my favorite part of this season since it began. Flashback Dru and Darla were fun. The Immortal is the best unseen character evah.

 

Altogether, this felt like a love letter to the fans. Would have been nice to get some more push towards the end of the season, as this now feels like Buffy S7 in terms of "too much shit to wrap up," but if you're going to stumble on the overall arc I can't think of a better way to do it.

[BlackFlagg 0]

Anyone else jealous of The Immortal? He gets a three-way with Darla and Dru and now he has Buffy...he's probably had the chick from Rome W&H with the massive rack...lucky bastard, heh

[Mole 0]

The best rating since around the beginning of the season, if I recall.

It was pulling 3s around "Smile Time." I'll look it up later.

 

Now that I think about it, this is the worst episode with a flashback scene in it, well that I can remember.

[Anakin Flair 0]

Also, who hated that they pimped the return of Darla and Dru, but we got, what, one scene with them? What a rip.

[Mole 0]

Yeah, that was pretty cheesy. Then again, what else can be told about those four? The important events have already been told, so they can only do so much with them.

 

I did like the black and white 60's short flashback of Spike and Dru.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

psst.

 

psst.

 

Mole.

 

psst.

 

pssssst.

 

psssssssst.

 

 

 

 

 

 

pssssssssssssssssssst.

 

Mole.

 

pssssssssssssssssssssssssst.

 

TAKE IT AND LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=17493

 

Wednesday, May 5, 2004

Sweeps Day 7: Herc Gives ANGEL 5.20 Five Stars!!

I am – Hercules!!

 

Angel 5.20 FAQ

What’s it called?

“The Girl In Question.”

 

Who’s responsible?

Teleplay is credited to the team of Steven DeKnight & Drew Goddard (“Damage,” “1943”).

 

What does TV Guide say?

“Concerned by a report that the Immortal is after Buffy, Angel and Spike head to Rome, where they discover what the Slayer has been up to---and with whom. Back in Los Angeles, Illyria confounds Wesley with her behavior when Fred's folks show up unexpectedly. Drusilla: Juliet Landau. Darla: Julie Benz. Andrew: Tom Lenk. Harmony: Mercedes McNab.”

 

The “whom” in question? It’s Buffy Summers, right?

Right. We pretty much learn this in the teaser.

 

Does Sarah Michelle Gellar appear this week?

She does not. But, if I may be frank (and a little astonished), it does not matter. (She is a big talent, but a wacky girl to have missed out on this.)

 

The big news?

Though Gellar does not appear, the episode does a far better job of resolving the Buffy-Spike-Angel triangle than did last year’s excellent “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” finale.

 

When are the flashbacks set?

1894. The events of “The Village” still lie in the future!

 

What else is TV Guide not telling us?

This is a pretty funny one, and reminded Herc a bit of “Buffy v. Dracula,” with all the jealousy!

 

Is Angel in Italy to retrieve a demon corpse or to rescue Buffy?

Angel is convinced The Immortal killed an important demon to lure him to Italy.

 

Say, didn’t Angel turn evil again at the end of the last episode?

There really is no sign of Angel evil this week. It’s all very confusing. And yet, not so much.

 

Any news of the Scoobs generally?

It saddens us to report no. Despite details of the slayer’s (er, a slayer’s) romantic life, no word of Willow, Xander, Giles, Faith, Wood or Clem.

 

What lessons do we learn from perhaps the final Buffiverse appearance of “Buffy” vets Julie and Juliet?

The Immortal? Twat magnet.

 

Are we absolutely certain Jenny Calendar doesn’t turn up as well? Because Jenny was seriously dreamy.

We are certain.

 

What’s doing with Krevlornswath (of the Deathwok Clan)?

So little, it fails to merit mention. And don’t get us started with young Harmony.

 

And Charles Gunn?

It’s his idea to send Spike. I think. Who cares? This installment is far more about "Buffy" than "Angel."

 

What’s great?

The wonderful, wonderful Donatella-like head of Wolfram’s Italian branch, but especially “The gypsies are filthy people! (puh!)” (Whoever plays her deserves an Emmy almost as much as Maya Rudolph. She is wonderful!!! And perhaps even the future Mrs. Hercules!!!) The hilarious turn a ballroom brawl takes. Fred’s resurrection. Angel and Spike’s repeated bouts with horror as they learn of The Immortal’s activities. The demon combover. Andrew’s failure to date other men. The look of Wolfram’s Italian HQ. “Son of a bitch!!” “I was confused, you git! It’s very loud in here!” “I’m not riding on the back!” “Stop holding on so tight!” “We’re not going to be his Shemps anymore!” “Do you wish me to stop?” “Yes, yes, we have, but he’s taking a nap!” “Perhaps she likes the cut of his trousers!” “No no no no. Well, okay, yes.” "I love the two of you so much, but brute force will only get your precious head smooshed!" “Is Buffy back yet?” “Excellent question. No.” “And meanwhile, The Immortal’s eating cookie dough!!” “You loved this. And part of you still does.” “Change back. Be blue.” “It’s on your desk.” “You know, I really hate that guy.” “She’d figure it out, she’s pretty smart!” So much more!!

 

What’s not so great?

No Jenny Calendar.

 

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

“Movin’!”

 

Okay, just watched it a second time, and an upgrade is demanded!! My God, I was too overwhelmed to judge it correctly at first! Herc’s revised and more carefully considered rating for “Angel” 5.20?

*****

[Mole 0]

Blah, bugger off.

 

Actually, Angel got a 3.8 with a 5 share. It actually beat Smallville in the 18-49 demo.

[Guest JMA]

Judging by Darla's description of The Immortal, I could actually she Buffy getting it on with him. Buffy seems to go for guys that fascinate her. Seeing as how the Immortal is a tweener, being neither good or evil, he would definetly fascinate her. Overall, though, I really wanted the Immortal to get his unseen head chopped off. He just came off as a real douche (and we didn't even see him).

 

Also, why would Angelus complain about never getting a three-way with Darla and Dru? Couldn't he just force them? This is Angelus we're talking about.

[BlackFlagg 0]

Also, why would Angelus complain about never getting a three-way with Darla and Dru? Couldn't he just force them? This is Angelus we're talking about.

Angelus may have been as bad as they come but Darla was in charge...it may have seemed otherwise at times but that was nothing more than an illusion, Angelus didn't do anything Darla didn't want him to.

[Guest JMA]

Also, why would Angelus complain about never getting a three-way with Darla and Dru? Couldn't he just force them? This is Angelus we're talking about.

Angelus may have been as bad as they come but Darla was in charge...it may have seemed otherwise at times but that was nothing more than an illusion, Angelus didn't do anything Darla didn't want him to.

Eh, I'm not so sure I agree with that. Even The Master (Darla's sire) was impressed with Angelus' capacity for evil. While Darla may be stronger than Angelus because of her age, I'm not sure she could take him in a fight.

 

I suppose you could argue that he didn't do it because of love. Then again, vampire love is much more perverse and selfish than human love.

[Max Danger 0]

He wasn't indicating that Darla could take Angelus in a fight, it's just that she was his sire. She pretty much wore the pants in their "relationship". Much like Spike was such a lapdog for Dru. It's that whole sire thing, basically, but never love. At least not for Angelus, as it was said many times throughout the Angel series.

[Max Danger 0]

Blah, bugger off.

 

Actually, Angel got a 3.8 with a 5 share. It actually beat Smallville in the 18-49 demo.

Guess the possibility of Buffy actually appearing compelled more viewers to check out the episode.

[BlackFlagg 0]

Eh, I'm not so sure I agree with that. Even The Master (Darla's sire) was impressed with Angelus' capacity for evil. While Darla may be stronger than Angelus because of her age, I'm not sure she could take him in a fight.

It's nothing to do with who's more evil or who's stronger...it's simply the woman controlling the man, they may be vampires but those rules still hold true....the same goes for Spike and Dru, but with them it was on the surface, there was no hideing the fact that Dru ruled Spike's world....but Darla and Angelus were different, Spike was a mama's boy who needed to be dominated and that's what he found in Dru. Angelus was different, and Darla had to make him think he was the one with the power...but she was pulling his strings, she could leave him to an angry mob to save her own skin and he'd come right back to her...even after he got his soul he tried everything to get her to accept him back...that's power.

[Guest JMA]

Eh, I'm not so sure I agree with that. Even The Master (Darla's sire) was impressed with Angelus' capacity for evil. While Darla may be stronger than Angelus because of her age, I'm not sure she could take him in a fight.

It's nothing to do with who's more evil or who's stronger...it's simply the woman controlling the man, they may be vampires but those rules still hold true....the same goes for Spike and Dru, but with them it was on the surface, there was no hideing the fact that Dru ruled Spike's world....but Darla and Angelus were different, Spike was a mama's boy who needed to be dominated and that's what he found in Dru. Angelus was different, and Darla had to make him think he was the one with the power...but she was pulling his strings, she could leave him to an angry mob to save her own skin and he'd come right back to her...even after he got his soul he tried everything to get her to accept him back...that's power.

You're speaking of manipulation and love. I'm not. I was talking about physical power. Specifically the whole three-way thing. My point is that if Angelus wanted them both at once he could've easily had them. Whatever emotional power Darla held over him wouldn't stop that. And when you think about it, he had power over her as well. She left the Master for him and even tried to help him become a monster again when he got his soul back. It's not just a one-way thing. And physically there was no way in hell that Spike was subservient to Dru. Emotionally, yes. But physically, he could do whatever he wanted to her.

[Guest JMA]

He wasn't indicating that Darla could take Angelus in a fight, it's just that she was his sire. She pretty much wore the pants in their "relationship". Much like Spike was such a lapdog for Dru. It's that whole sire thing, basically, but never love. At least not for Angelus, as it was said many times throughout the Angel series.

I wouldn't exactly call Spike a "lap-dog" to Dru. Remember the end of season two where he went against her wishes and ran away with her? She couldn't stop him then. As Spike later said, "I may be love's bitch, but at least I admit it." He was well aware of the fact that he was a slave to his passion. That didn't stop him from going after her again and apparently torturing her until she liked him again.

 

And remember, Dru eventually came back to Spike after he stopped caring about her. It's not just a one-way street.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Eh, I'm not so sure I agree with that. Even The Master (Darla's sire) was impressed with Angelus' capacity for evil. While Darla may be stronger than Angelus because of her age, I'm not sure she could take him in a fight.

It's nothing to do with who's more evil or who's stronger...it's simply the woman controlling the man, they may be vampires but those rules still hold true....the same goes for Spike and Dru, but with them it was on the surface, there was no hideing the fact that Dru ruled Spike's world....but Darla and Angelus were different, Spike was a mama's boy who needed to be dominated and that's what he found in Dru. Angelus was different, and Darla had to make him think he was the one with the power...but she was pulling his strings, she could leave him to an angry mob to save her own skin and he'd come right back to her...even after he got his soul he tried everything to get her to accept him back...that's power.

You're speaking of manipulation and love. I'm not. I was talking about physical power. Specifically the whole three-way thing. My point is that if Angelus wanted them both at once he could've easily had them. Whatever emotional power Darla held over him wouldn't stop that. And when you think about it, he had power over her as well. She left the Master for him and even tried to help him become a monster again when he got his soul back. It's not just a one-way thing. And physically there was no way in hell that Spike was subservient to Dru. Emotionally, yes. But physically, he could do whatever he wanted to her.

He could not have easily held down and had his way with two vampires.

 

He's stronger than one...not both

[BlackFlagg 0]

I wouldn't exactly call Spike a "lap-dog" to Dru. Remember the end of season two where he went against her wishes and ran away with her? She couldn't stop him then. As Spike later said, "I may be love's bitch, but at least I admit it." He was well aware of the fact that he was a slave to his passion. That didn't stop him from going after her again and apparently torturing her until she liked him again.

 

And remember, Dru eventually came back to Spike after he stopped caring about her. It's not just a one-way street.

True, things do change...the end of season 2 was more due to Spike's jealousy of Angelus...even that didn't last, then in season 3 he did the "I'll torture her till she likes me again." bit, but again it was didn't last...he got the strong voice but did he actually follow through on it? Or did he find her and go right back to the palm of her hand. She still controlled him and sent him back to Sunnydale a complete wreck...not once, but twice. She shows up again and Spike quickly kicks Harm to the curb....and hell, the only reason Dru went back to him then was because of what Angel did to her and Darla...her sire had hurt her, so she ran somehwere she thought she would surely find comfort, good old reliable Spike...but who's to say she wouldn't have kicked Spike to the curb again when she grew tired of him again, but that didn't happen...she got him going again, made him think he could be the old evil Spike. Then the choice came, and his love for Buffy is what finally gave him the strength to stand up to Dru.

 

 

There was one thing Spike never seemed to learn, the most important thing about Dru, she was the one who wanted to be dominated...like Angel said in season 2 "She likes to be teased."

 

 

That's how I see it at least

[Guest JMA]

You're speaking of manipulation and love. I'm not. I was talking about physical power. Specifically the whole three-way thing. My point is that if Angelus wanted them both at once he could've easily had them. Whatever emotional power Darla held over him wouldn't stop that. And when you think about it, he had power over her as well. She left the Master for him and even tried to help him become a monster again when he got his soul back. It's not just a one-way thing. And physically there was no way in hell that Spike was subservient to Dru. Emotionally, yes. But physically, he could do whatever he wanted to her.

He could not have easily held down and had his way with two vampires.

 

He's stronger than one...not both

He could've easily done it if Spike helped him.

 

Though that's iffy, seeing as how Spike and Dru really did love each other (in their own sick way).

[Guest JMA]

I wouldn't exactly call Spike a "lap-dog" to Dru. Remember the end of season two where he went against her wishes and ran away with her? She couldn't stop him then. As Spike later said, "I may be love's bitch, but at least I admit it." He was well aware of the fact that he was a slave to his passion. That didn't stop him from going after her again and apparently torturing her until she liked him again.

 

And remember, Dru eventually came back to Spike after he stopped caring about her. It's not just a one-way street.

True, things do change...the end of season 2 was more due to Spike's jealousy of Angelus...even that didn't last, then in season 3 he did the "I'll torture her till she likes me again." bit, but again it was didn't last...he got the strong voice but did he actually follow through on it? Or did he find her and go right back to the palm of her hand. She still controlled him and sent him back to Sunnydale a complete wreck...not once, but twice. She shows up again and Spike quickly kicks Harm to the curb....and hell, the only reason Dru went back to him then was because of what Angel did to her and Darla...her sire had hurt her, so she ran somehwere she thought she would surely find comfort, good old reliable Spike...but who's to say she wouldn't have kicked Spike to the curb again when she grew tired of him again, but that didn't happen...she got him going again, made him think he could be the old evil Spike. Then the choice came, and his love for Buffy is what finally gave him the strength to stand up to Dru.

I'd assume he did torture her (he was evil) and she DID like him again...for a while anyway. The thing about Dru and Spike is that they really did seem to have a sort of "love" for one another. The Judge all but said this and Dru herself said it in season four of Buffy. I would even go as far as to say that Dru loved Spike (as William) before he loved her. I think the real reason she left Spike is because, quite frankly, she was bored of him. That and possibly jealousy over Buffy. But that doesn't mean her feelings just went away. If only things were that easy in matters of love.

[Mole 0]

He could've easily done it if Spike helped him.

 

Though that's iffy, seeing as how Spike and Dru really did love each other (in their own sick way).

Dru and Spike didn't really love each other because they don't have souls. They had a deeeeep lust for eachother, but if you don't have a soul you can't love. One of the reasons Buffy never would been with Spike was because he didn't have a soul. Plus, when he tried to rape Buffy prooved that he didn't love her. If you love someone, would you try to rape them? I think not.

 

However, he did have feelings for her or some sorts. Once he got his soul, the feelings he had came out in their true form and he really loved her then.

 

I think the real reason she left Spike is because, quite frankly, she was bored of him. That and possibly jealousy over Buffy.

She left him because of his obession with Buffy. In "Fool for Love," she basically said that she is leaving him because of Buffy.

[Guest JMA]

He could've easily done it if Spike helped him.

 

Though that's iffy, seeing as how Spike and Dru really did love each other (in their own sick way).

Dru and Spike didn't really love each other because they don't have souls. They had a deeeeep lust for eachother, but if you don't have a soul you can't love. One of the reasons Buffy never would been with Spike was because he didn't have a soul. Plus, when he tried to rape Buffy prooved that he didn't love her. If you love someone, would you try to rape them? I think not.

 

However, he did have feelings for her or some sorts. Once he got his soul, the feelings he had came out in their true form and he really loved her then.

Spike didn't have a soul when he first fell in love with Buffy. You don't need a soul to love. Dru has said this and Spike is proof of it. Also, don't forget that vampire couple from season three of "Angel." Don't even TRY to tell me that was based on lust. It's been pretty much stated that vampires can love. As for Spike trying to rape Buffy, vampire love is a lot different than human love. Vampire love is perverse and selfish.

 

Spike tried to rape Buffy because deep down he was still evil. Forget the chip, his true nature is to cause others pain. The interesting thing about Spike is that his demon and his soul co-exist in a perfect harmony. Compare their relationship to that of Angel and Angelus.

 

Edit: The couple I was speaking of are James and Elizabeth.

[Guest JMA]

I think the real reason she left Spike is because, quite frankly, she was bored of him. That and possibly jealousy over Buffy.

She left him because of his obession with Buffy. In "Fool for Love," she basically said that she is leaving him because of Buffy.

I remember. That's where I got the jealousy theory from.

 

It was also nice to finally see the Chaos demon in that episode.