The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Guest Brian]

I think the DVD is what's keeping this thing alive. I've only been able to download some Jasmine eps and Release, and I really want to see Apocalypse Nowish again and the pre-Beast stuff that I've only seen bits of. TNT reruns of Season 4 start this week (have they bought rights for season 5 reruns?). I'll be typing up thought after every episode, because right now I'm collecting L&I before getting scoped. I'll be up for the marathons.

 

I'm sorta picking at what Buffy stuff I want for now. I've got Season 3, but I'm not sure wha I want next. Season 2 has Angellus and a handful of my favorite eps, but overall Season 5 is so good.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I got Angel Season 3 for my birthday, which I LOVED...and I FINALLY got to see everything with Holtz and Connor and Wesley...Which I NEVER SAW...

 

Oh fuck, that's like the worst time ever to miss out on Angel. I think it's the most significant series of events that bridged what happened in Season 1 and 2 with what happened in Season 4 and 5. Good lord man, how did you survive??!

 

Dames bought Firefly and this place is still named "The SmartMarks"... gorramit, you know it should be "The JayneMarks", YOU KNOW IT.

[Youth N Asia 0]

I'm still debating on Firefly. I caught an episode when it aired and was bored with it. But if I can find it cheap enough I'll give it a shot.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I caught an episode when it first aired too and felt the exact same way. Then I saw Gina Torres as Jasmine on Angel and Nathan "God" Fillion on Buffy as Caleb, caught the 'best pilot ever' in Serenity on SPACE, and was hooked.

[The Dames 0]

I lent it a friend of mine who never saw Buffy or Angel and didn't want to give it back.

 

He finally did and I let him borrow Buffy Season 1 since I told him that eventually WAY down the road, Mal & Zoe end up on Buffy and Angel...

 

I realized how badly I fucked up once I was lost about the whole Connor thing... I didn't realize until I watched Season 3 that the prophecy that the Father Will Kill The Son...was FALSE. Since I never saw it, I thought that was actually fulfilled in Home when Angel apparently slashed Connor's throat. Man, I was marking out.

 

Season 5 (Origin in particular) makes SO much more sense now.

 

Dames

 

Dames

[Guest Brian]

It was sorta fulfilled, the fake prophesy, in that he killed the memories of his son. It's sorta sad to look at Season 4 as him losing control of Connor more than anything else, as Connor couldn't cope with Angel's world. Things like in Peace Out with the priest, and him saying Angel's already lost the boy. And Connor buying into the whole lie of Jasmine. Season 3 was like Angel finding his plae in the world, and Season 4 was him losing that place. That's the way I look at it.

[Youth N Asia 0]

Seasons 4 started out great for me and ended weak. The whole Jasmine thing just came out of nowhere and I was left with "we lost The Beast for this?"

[Guest Brian]

Shit, I loved Jasmine except for the whole "every event was put in the direction" deal. But even that was redeemed by Angel actually making his choice in the end, and then the ambiguous decision with Connor.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Maybe we should keep this sucker going untill S5 comes out on DVD

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Lets see, what hasn't been discussed yet....

 

Hmmm:

 

Which BTVS would you liked to have seen on Angel that wasn't

My pick would be Xander. So anti-Angel I'd like to see that dynamic, especially when regular Cordy was still around. I'd say put him in S3 Angel

 

We had Buffy vs Dracula, would you have liked to have seen Angel vs Dracula at some point

Spike and Drac had a run-in so it would stand to reason Angelus had dealings with the Dark Prince. Could have worked that into a flashback sequence

[Youth N Asia 0]

I would rather have Giles show up for some ancient demon or something. Angel just runs out of options and calls him in. Plus by Angel season 3-4 Wes is a completly different character and the dynamic between the two would be not even close to what it was.

[Mole 0]

Woah woah woah, Dames hasn't seen THE BEAST yet?

 

 

Ohhhh, you're in for some good times.

 

EDIT: Wait, he did see him. I should say he hasn't seen THE BEAST's story.

[Anya 0]

I never really wanted anyone on Buffy to go to Angel. I can't really think of anything big I'd like to see. They just seem so apart. More Andrew is never a bad thing though.

 

 

I could live without ever seeing Dracula again.

[Anakin Flair 0]

I got Angel Season 3 for my birthday, which I LOVED...and I FINALLY got to see everything with Holtz and Connor and Wesley...Which I NEVER SAW...

 

Oh fuck, that's like the worst time ever to miss out on Angel. I think it's the most significant series of events that bridged what happened in Season 1 and 2 with what happened in Season 4 and 5. Good lord man, how did you survive??!

 

Dames bought Firefly and this place is still named "The SmartMarks"... gorramit, you know it should be "The JayneMarks", YOU KNOW IT.

The only time I saw Season 3 was when I bought the DVD's. I went straight from season's 2 to half-way through 4. This was mainly due to me working, and somewhat due to my wanning interst.

 

As for who I wanted to see on Angel from Buffy, it's simple- Giles. He and Angel have a history, as do he and Wes. Could have been good times.

[The Dames 0]

Yeah...Giles and Angel didn't interact too much after he killed Jenny in S2.

 

And I've only seen the Beast's demise...but I've never seen Apocalypse Nowish or Spin The Bottle...aka the beginning of Season 4.

 

Dames

[Guest Brian]

I want to see Deep Down again, just for that part at the beginning, and see how that relates to that whole season, what with him losing Cordy and Connor, his moment of happiness with Angelus, and how he used Wolfram and Hart to guarantee what he could for everyone.

 

I think the only time Angel and Giles really interacted was during "Amends".

[Youth N Asia 0]

They interacted in Pangs I believe. One of the season 4 crossovers

[Mole 0]

Yeah...Giles and Angel didn't interact too much after he killed Jenny in S2.

 

And I've only seen the Beast's demise...but I've never seen Apocalypse Nowish or Spin The Bottle...aka the beginning of Season 4.

 

Dames

Ohhh, you're in for a treat. Probably the best two episodes ever, especially "Apocalypse Nowish," which is THE best episode ever. Fuck "Not Fade Away," which is overrated by the way.

 

Which brings me to another point. Somehow the top five episodes from Tvtome.com are from season 5:

 

Not Fade Away

You’re Welcome

A Hole in the World

Shells

Smile Time

 

Umm, I don't think so. "You're Welcome" is a good episode, but might not stand time. "A Hole in the World" is an awesome episode and should be that high. "Shells" is one of the those episodes that is good overall, but doesn't have the markout moments that other episodes contain. And while "Smile Time" is the funniest episode in Whedonverse, it doesn't do anything for the overall storyarc.

 

Here is the complete list of the best episodes, which is way off by my standards. I think since I'm not 100% because of Lyme and Raw is going to blow ass tonight, I'm going to grade all of the Angel episodes.

[Guest Brian]

I still love NFA and it's really one of the centerpiece moments in the show (with Home and Reprise).

 

"Shells" is one of the those episodes that is good overall, but doesn't have the markout moments that other episodes contain.

 

No mark-out moments? Balls out Illyria and Angel stopping her. Angel getting turned down by the scoobies, severing their relationship. Wes shooting Knox and stabbing Gunn. Don't forget about this convo:

 

Angel: What you're trying to do, raise your army, reclaim your world, innocent people would die. Like Fred. I can't let that happen.

Illyria: You are the protector of theses creatures?

Angel: Yes.

Illyria: You'd fight for their lives?

Angel: Yes.

Illyria: (looks to Knox) Even this one?

Knox: Is that an issue? Is my life in peril, boss? King?

Angel: You're about as low as it gets, Knox, but you're a part of humanity. That isn't always pretty, but it's a hell of a lot better than what came before. (To Illyria) And if it comes down to a choice between you and him, then yes, I would fight for his life, just like any other human's. Because that's what people do. That's what makes us

(Wes shoots and kills Knox)

Angel: (to Wes) Were you even listening?

 

and

 

Wesley: (looks out at the lab) There's love. There's hope...for some. There's hope that you'll find something worthy...that your life will lead you to some joy...that after everything...you can still be surprised.

Illyria: Is that enough? (looks at Wes) Is that enough to live on?

 

and

 

Illyria: The Wolf, Ram, and Hart? In my time, they were weak...barely above the vampire...

Knox: Well, uh, guess they beefed up...

 

 

And while "Smile Time" is the funniest episode in Whedonverse, it doesn't do anything for the overall storyarc.

 

Wes/Fred. Gunn getting the upgrade and signing the coffin through. And then there's the Nina thing, but I'm not too big on that.

[Mole 0]

And while "Smile Time" is the funniest episode in Whedonverse, it doesn't do anything for the overall storyarc.

 

Wes/Fred. Gunn getting the upgrade and signing the coffin through. And then there's the Nina thing, but I'm not too big on that.

Oh God, I so forgot about that. Some hardcore Angel fan I am...

 

Okay I am going to watch "NFA" right now, before Around the Horn comes on.

[Mole 0]

Okay I just watched "NFA" and I still think it is overrated. That doesn't mean I don't think it is an amazing episode, but it isn't the best episode of all time. It is in the top 5 though.

 

Why do I think it is overrated?

 

1. Too much happened in the episode. They should have built the Black Thorn up over the last five episodes, not the last two.

2. There wasn't a fight scene that is truely amazing. In "Apocalypse Nowish" Angel Inc. fighting THE BEAST kills any fight scene in "NFA." For the series finale of a show that's mostly about fighting, there wasn't a huge mark-out fight. I find that a bit disapointing.

3. When Angel Inc. is talking about their plans for tonight, they are able to do it now problem. What happened to them having to keep the fact that Angel was "bad" a secret?

4. Lindsey dieing. This didn't bother me at first, but now it does. Lindsey is right; Angel should have killed him, not a flunkey. Unless there is a reasoning behind this that I am not aware of, it's a let down.

5. Angel killing Hamilton with a punch to the head? VERY VERY VERY anti-climatic.

 

That is all I can think of right now, but those are most of the reasons why it isn't the best episode ever.

 

However, the fight scene with Angel/Hamilton did have the same music from "Apocalypse Nowish."

[AnonymousBroccoli 0]

The TVTome rankings are flawed, since it's not necessarily Angel fans doing the voting. I voted for a bunch of episodes for Buffy's 4th and Angel's 1st seasons, but I used a scale compared to average TV, rather than other episodes from the same series, so it was all 6 to 10 scores being handed out.

 

I watched Reunion today, with Darla's return to the vampire side, and her reunion with Dru. The whole situation in the wine cellar was darn good.

[Youth N Asia 0]

I don't know all the episode names when it comes to Angel, but Smile Time had me laughing my balls off.

 

Spike with a huge smile on his face: "You're a bloody puppet!"

 

And when Puppet Angel vamps.

 

While I'm all for comedy episodes, it did seem pretty late in the series for the Italy episode...it's like 3 episodes from the very end of the run.

[Mole 0]

Oh God, "The Girl in Question" was the biggest waste of an episode. There was NO reason for it at that point in the season because it took away from the storyarc at the end.

 

Plus Angel was in his "I'm acting bad" faze, but he was acting bad at all. Very silly. Not to mention Andrew was in the episode, which was a waste.

[AnonymousBroccoli 0]

It wasn't great timing, or an especially good episode, but it made sense to have a Buffy-centric story at the end of the series.

 

I've heard they filmed all but the last 4 or 5 episodes by the time the cancellation was announced, so they did have to cram a lot of stuff in at the end.

[Anya 0]

Not only does Pangs have Angel and Giles interacting, it's also the only time in the series that Anya and Angel interact.

 

 

There really isn't enough of a big battle in NFA. You see like the beginnings of them but that's it. Very lame. There needs t be a 2 hour version.

[Mole 0]

Mole's Angel Episode Grades. I did this once for Buffy and I am doing it now for Angel. In the Buffy Episode Grades, I also did the monster of the episode grade but I don't feel like doing it for Angel.

 

This is what each letter grade equals to number grades.

 

A+: 100

A: 95

A-: 92

B+: 88

B: 85

B-: 82

C+: 78

C: 75

C-: 72

D+: 68

D: 65

D-: 62

F: 55

 

Season 1

1. City Of... - A-

2. Lonely Hearts - B-

3. In The Dark - C+

4. I Fall to Pieces - D

5. Rm w/ A Vu - B+

6. Sense and Sensitivity - B-

7. The Bachelor Party - B

8. I Will Remember You - A-

9. Hero - A

10. Parting Gifts - B

11. Somnambulist - B-

12. Expecting - D+

13. She - C+

14. I've Got You Under My Skin - C+

15. The Prodigal - B-

16. The Ring - C+

17. Eternity - C

18. Five by Five - A+

19. Sanctuary - B+

20. War Zone - B-

21. Blind Date - B

22. To Shanshu in L.A. - B+

 

Season 1 Average Grade: B- (83.1)

I have only seen this season once all the way through, so my grading might be off a tad bit. I haven't seen 3/4 of these episodes more than once, but that is because I don't want to. This is defiently the weakest of all of the seaons. That can be connected to the fact that this season was case-by-case than storyarc, which I am a bigger fan of. "Hero" doesn't get that + because I felt a tad bit bored with the episode, other than the last few minutes which brings it right up.

 

 

Season 2

23. Judgement - B

24. Are You Now or Have You Ever Been - B+

25. First Impressions - C+

26. Untouched - B-

27. Dear Boy - B

28. Guise Will Be Guise - A-

29. Darla - A

30. The Shroud of Rahmon - B

31. The Trial - B+

32. Reunion - B+

33. Redefinition - B+

34. Blood Money - C-

35. Happy Anniversary - B-

36. The Thin Dead Line - C+

37. Reprise - B-

38. Epiphany - B

39. Disharmony - C+

40. Dead End - C+

41. Belonging - B-

42. Over the Rainbow - B

43. Through the Looking Glass - B

44. There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb - B+

 

Season 2 Average Grade: B (84.3)

The thing about season 2 is that there aren't many stand out episodes, other than "Darla" which is an amazing episode. This season might have been better if they stuck to the Darla storyarc through out the season, but the dropped it after Angel doing her. Then again, they needed her for the next season and thank God that Minear didn't get what he does best, killing characters. We all know why that would have sucked.

 

Season 3

45. Heartthrob - B-

46. That Vision Thing - B-

47. That Old Gang of Mine - C+

48. Carpe Noctem - B

49. Fredless - B+

50. Billy - B

51. OffSpring - B-

52. Quickening - B+

53. Lullaby - A-

54. Dad - C+

55. Birthday - B+

56. Provider - C+

57. Waiting in the Wings - A

58. Couplet - B-

59. Loyalty - A

60. Sleep Tight - B+

61. Forgiving - B

62. Double Or Nothing - B-

63. The Price - B

64. A New World - A-

65. Benediction - B+

66. Tomorrow - B+

 

Season 3 Average Grade: B (85.6)

That grade really surprises me because of how much I love season 3. I even ranked it higher than season 5 because the Holtz storyline is the most interesting storyline in Whedonverse history. A lot of people love "Waiting in the Wings" but it doesn't do much for me. I orginally gave it a B+, but I raised it to an A because of how important the Fred/Gunn love story becomes.

 

Season 4

 

67. Deep Down - B+

68. Ground State - B

69. The House Always Wins - B

70. Slouching Toward Bethlehem - D+

71. Supersymmetry - C+

72. Spin the Bottle - A+

73. Apocalypse, Nowish - A+

74. Habeas Corpses - A

75. Long Day's Journey - B+

76. Awakening - B+

77. Soulless - C-

78. Calvary - B+

79. Salvage - A-

80. Release - B+

81. Orpheus - A-

82. Players - B

83. Inside Out - B+

84. Shiny Happy People - B

85. Magic Bullet - B-

86. Sacrifice - B

87. Peace Out - A-

88. Home - A

 

Season 4 Average Grade: B (87.2)

If it weren't for "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" and "Soulless" which were VERY boring episodes, this grade would be a lot higher. I can't stress enough how much I love this season, especically with two of my favorite episodes of all time, my favorite villian, and a very interesting storyline w/Jasmine. It is too bad Charisma got pregnent because this season would have been constructed differently and could have been so much better.

 

Season 5

 

89. Conviction - B+

90. Just Rewards - B-

91. Unleashed - D+

92. Hell Bound - B-

93. Life of the Party - B

94. The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco - C-

95. Lineage - A-

96. Destiny - B+

97. Harm's Way - C+

98. Soul Purpose - B+

99. Damage - B

100. You're Welcome - A

101. Why We Fight - C

102. Smile Time - A-

103. A Hole in the World - A+

104. Shells - B+

105. Underneath - B+

106. Orgin - A-

107. Time Bomb - B

108. The Girl in Question - C-

109. Power Play - B

110. Not Fade Away - A

 

Season 5 Average Grade: B (85.1)

I know this is everyone's favorite season, but not for me. There were a lot of strong episodes, but at the same time a few episodes that were weak. If they never had done "The Girl in Question" that late in the season, it might have gotten an higher grade. However, it was during the end of the season when they should have been building to the series finale but had to tell the love triangle story. The storyline was very interesting, probably the most realistic with what was going on with Angel and the WB. But they could have done a tad bit more than what they did do.

 

Top seasons according to AEG

1. Season 4, B (87.2)

2. Season 3, B (85.6)

3. Season 5, B (85.1)

4. Season 2, B (94.3)

5. Season 1, B- (83.1)

 

There were only 4 A+ episodes (A few might think are some missing)

1. "Five by Five" - Season 1

2. "Spin the Bottle" - Season 4

3. "Apocalypse, Nowish" - Season 4

4. "A Hole in the World" - Season 5

 

This is kind of odd because Buffy actually has better grades and more A+ episodes.

 

Top seasons according to AEG.

1. Season 5, A- (89.5)

2. Season 3, B+ (87.6)

3. Season 6, B+ (87.3)

4. Season 2, B+ (85.3)

5. Season 4, B+ (84.8) T

6. Season 1, B+ (84.8) T

7. Season 7, B- (82.9)

 

There were only 6 A+ episodes. (Probably most of you agree with those too)

1. "Passion" - Season 2

2. "The Wish" - Season 3

3. "Fool for Love" - Season 5

4. "The Gift" - Season 5

5. "Once More, With Feeling" - Season 6

6. "Conversations With Dead People" - Season 7

 

I think I was more generous in the Buffy grading. Here, http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...c=41088&st=2940, is the link to the Buffy Episode Grades.

[Anya 0]

Dopplegang land is better than the wish.

 

 

Apocalypse, Nowish is overrated. It's really slow till the end. The same people that bash Hero for that love AN!

 

 

I Will Remember You has awkward acting and is too early in the series.

 

 

A B for damage? It's sooo boring and hokey. I have a huge crush on Andrew and still didn't like it.

 

 

CWDP doesn't fit in with the rest. It's good, but it's not on the others level.

[Mole 0]

Dopplegang land is better than the wish.

That is just because of Anya. The story in "The Wish" was SO much better.

 

Apocalypse, Nowish is overrated. It's really slow till the end. The same people that bash Hero for that love AN!

OVERRATED? How is it overrated? And "Hero" only is good because of the ending, that's it.

[Anya 0]

No, it's not just because of Anya. Anya is in The Wish too. Although it's true she is better in DGL and that's part of why it rules. But it also has very funny stuff with Willow. The whole deal with everyone thinking she is dead beats everything in the Wish.

 

 

AN is only good because of it's battle.