The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Jericholic82 0]

Fear, Itself is on fx right now. It is a good example of s4 comedy.

 

"Buffy: Xander whats with the tux?

Xander: The name's bond, james bond, im wearing this in case we get changed into aour costumes again and I can be super cool secret agent guy.

Buffy: Or super cool waiter guy"

 

 

and giles with a sombrero on=comic gold

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Buffy had the best arc out of both shows (Season 5), but Angel has had better arcs. The Connor Saga was inspired as it went from the end of Season 1 to the end of season 4 and encompassed a series of micro-arcs.

 

I found Angels relationships much more enjoyable than Buffys. I didn't like how the Willow/Xander relationship developed, and Buffys relationships with all the gang isn't as "fun" as Angels relationship with his gang. Buffy/Spike had something great which was ruined in Season 6.

[Guest Brian]

Another thing is that Buffy has MUCH better relationships than Angel. So much better.

 

LILAH

Hard day at the office?

 

WESLEY

I've had worse.

 

LILAH

What happened?

 

WESLEY

Bugs.

 

LILAH

Giant?

 

WESLEY

Swarm. Why are you dressed like that?

 

Lilah's sitting on his desk near the window. She's done her hair in two pigtail braids with little white bows, she's wearing glasses, a short skirt, a white oxford shirt and a blue cardigan sweater. She's swinging her feet like a schoolgirl, acting coy.

 

LILAH

(in Southern accent) Isn't this what you like? Big brain and a tight little—

 

WESLEY

(rolls eyes) Lilah.

 

LILAH

(in Southern accent) Oh, forget about that evil witch. Let's talk about me. I'm good and pure and science turns me on, and-and one day (puts hands together in prayer) if I pray hard enough and eat all my vegetables, I just might just have hips.

 

WESLEY

(smiles) Are you finished?

 

LILAH

(stands, walks to him) Did it turn you on? Watching her up there in front of all those braniacs knowing she was the smartest one in the room? (crosses arms)

 

WESLEY

Her theories deserve attention.

 

LILAH

Just her theories? (walks closer to him) I saw the way you looked at her. Oh, come on. Do you think I care about your little crush? Moon all you want of the Texas twig 'cause I know whose bed you'll be crawling into at the end of the day. (puts arms around his neck) Or the middle of it. (starts kissing him)

 

WESLEY

You think you know me?

 

LILAH

Better than she ever will.

 

WESLEY

Leave them on.

[Jingus 0]

Buffy had the best arc out of both shows (Season 5), but Angel has had better arcs. The Connor Saga was inspired as it went from the end of Season 1 to the end of season 4 and encompassed a series of micro-arcs.

Yeah, the Connor arc was really long, even though it really started more or less in season 3 with Darla's pregnancy. Problem is, well... I always hated Connor. I always thought he was a whiny, ungrateful little brat who (once he got out of the hell dimension) didn't deserve half of what he got. Having two loooooooong seasons focusing so hard on him made the show hard for me to watch at times. He's like Dawn, but with generic superpowers and no sense of humor.

 

And I gotta say that Buffy has Angel beat on the original villain front:

 

Buffy Angellus > Angel Angellus

Spike > Lindsay

Glory > The Beast

Evil Willow > Evil Cordy

Caleb > Holden

The Trio > The Black Circle (yeah, you read that right)

[Guest Brian]

Wait, since when is Holden one of the top villains? What about swank, ball-stomping "I can alter time and throw Angel out the window" Illyria? What about Jasmine taking away their free will in exchange for eternal peace? What about Holtz?

[Anya 0]

Wes/Lilah is pretty depressing and is not even much of a ship. There is no real love and happiness!

 

Gunn/Fred is like the only ship that compares to a Buffy ship, and it's just boring.

[Jingus 0]

Wait, since when is Holden one of the top villains? What about swank, ball-stomping "I can alter time and throw Angel out the window" Illyria? What about Jasmine taking away their free will in exchange for eternal peace? What about Holtz?

I just used Holden because he was such a close comparison to Caleb: showed up halfway through the last season, had super-strength, kicked some ass, and then got stomped real good.

 

Holtz I didn't include because he's such a strange case. In theory he's a villain, but Team Angel never treated him like one. Why didn't they ever just kill him? Yeah, I know, he's a normal human being and not a demon, his family was massacred by Angelus, blah blah blah. He caused just as much pain and destruction as any other baddie, and simply did not care that Angel had a soul and was fighting on the side of the Higher Powers. In my book, those qualities should've gotten him axed with the quickness.

 

Ilyria was a villain for all of one episode; then, in one of the cooler and ballsier moves I've seen Joss pull, she turned babyface and stayed part of Team Angel til the end of the series.

 

Jasmine I really haven't seen much of, but I didn't like the actress that played her from what I saw, and plus I really hated the idiotic "evil Cordy" storyline that set the whole thing up.

[Guest Brian]

Do you mean Hamilton?

[Anya 0]

Caleb would be a lot cooler if he didn't injure Xander.

 

 

Hamilton does like nothing. He has the worst big bad death ever, well besides FE running away at Buffy's Resolve Face of Doom.

[Jingus 0]

D'oh. Been a while since season 5 went off the air, eh? Yep, I meant Hamilton, thank you.

[Crowe 0]

Deeper? Maybe more adult, but that's not necessarily better.

Yes, deeper, no storyline on Buffy challenges you and your values (hm, probably not the best word) like the Jasmine/Free Will storyline. Angel does come across as more adult, but you're correct, that doesn't make necessarily make it better. But the same can be applied to Buffy, it comes across more lighthearted, yet this doesn't necessarily make it better either. It depends on audience preference.

 

More intense? There's plenty of intense moments on Buffy. I was just watching Entropy tonight. The end scene with Xander is intense.

Oh, I don't deny that Buffy has its intense moments, but I don't believe any are on par with Angel's. I watched Loyalty last night and were blown away by the final few minutes of the episode with the "Earthquake, Fire, Blood" bit. I'd forgotten how clever and intense it was.

 

"At least I would have had something to snack on..."

 

Told better? No way. Nothing beats the way Buffy can do a season long arc but with wacky gimmick episodes.

Wacky gimmick episodes are overrated... by you. Give me a twenty-two hour episode season anyday, now that's storytelling.

 

Another thing is that Buffy has MUCH better relationships than Angel. So much better.

Buffy had a lesbian relationship on it, and that has to be one of the most ridiculous and downright stupid decisions made by the writing team.

 

It seems that we clash a lot. This amuses me, 'cause we're both unable to budge our bias towards our respective favourites.

[Anya 0]

There's a lot of challenging and morally ambiguous arcs on Buffy. What about Buffy having to sacrifice Dawn in S5? Buffy and Xander arguing over what to do about Anyanka in S7? Willow wanting revenge in S6? The entire Spike and Buffy ship?

 

 

I really like the intense moments involving Wes in S3 too. I don't think they compare to some of Buffy's though, like that scene in Selfless and Giles yelling at Buffy in The Gift. Also Tara's death is up there.

 

 

Angel has like no happy ships. So much Angel brooding and failed ships. On Buffy there is Willow/Oz, Buffy/Riley, Willow/Tara and the best ship ever, Xanya.

 

 

 

I can't help but be biased. I have so much more emotion invested in Buffy than Angel.

[Ravenbomb 0]

I really like the intense moments involving Wes in S3 too.

Yeah, he was super-intense in his scene in Dopplegangland. I was practically glued to the TV in suspense.

[Anya 0]

He is pretty intense in Graduation Part 2. At least until he falls in battle.

[Ravenbomb 0]

you mean when he's being all stuffy and british? Didn't he just ask to be part of the fight, then get knocked down in the fight?

[Anya 0]

Well he looked pretty intense standing next to Angel and all the kids, leading the charge against the army of vamps.

[Ravenbomb 0]

yes, which led to the falling on the ass. Besides, looking intense doesn't make the scene intense

[Anya 0]

That's why I was talking about ANGEL s3.

[Crowe 0]

There's a lot of challenging and morally ambiguous arcs on Buffy. What about Buffy having to sacrifice Dawn in S5? Buffy and Xander arguing over what to do about Anyanka in S7? Willow wanting revenge in S6? The entire Spike and Buffy ship?

Yes, there are challenging and morally ambiguous arcs on Buffy, but let me rephrase what I meant. In comparison to the Jasmine/Free Will angle, Buffy's morally ambiguous arcs are weaker and aren't as challenging.

 

I really like the intense moments involving Wes in S3 too. I don't think they compare to some of Buffy's though, like that scene in Selfless and Giles yelling at Buffy in The Gift. Also Tara's death is up there.

Ok, The Gift has intenseness. Wes' moments in S3 rule over Tara's death, however.

 

Angel has like no happy ships. So much Angel brooding and failed ships. On Buffy there is Willow/Oz, Buffy/Riley, Willow/Tara and the best ship ever, Xanya.

This is true, but Angel wouldn't be Angel without the heartbreak and despair. I think that's why I like it a lot more. Though, I did wish Cordy & Angel got it together... I was so sad when Cordy died. And now that I think about it... the only relationships I liked on Buffy were Spuffy (I hated Bangel, SMG annoys) and Xanya. Oz & Willow was marred by the fact that Seth Green sucks so much fucking ass. Riley was not a great character, but least he's tolerable. And I've think my disdain for the Tara/Willow relationship has been expressed enough.

 

I can't help but be biased. I have so much more emotion invested in Buffy than Angel.

I'm the opposite, but I probably wouldn't use the word emotion.

[Anya 0]

I don't like Bangel much either. Well, it's ok, but it's really overrated. It's so fairy tale. I don't really buy the emotion. It just comes off as "destiny" or a story more than real love. In S1 and S2 they barely even do anything or spend time together yet it's sold like the greatest love EVER. Also the age difference creeps me out. Angel is like an adult and Buffy is a teen then, and not a very mature teen either. They don't even seem to have much in common.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Crowe, I don't know if you have learned this yet. But take it from me, Mole, and everyone else in this thread.

 

DON'T

 

ARGUE

 

WITH

 

ANYA

 

(she's crazy)

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I swear to god "I don't like Bangel much either" made me laugh for a legit 20 seconds.

[Anya 0]

I prefer to think of myself as passionate.

 

 

 

Xanya is everything Bangel isn't. It is the most believable ship on either show. Everytime they are on screen I completely believe they are meant for each other. Even when they are bickering and fighting I believe. I wish so much they had done a pregnancy storyline. That would have been the best thing like ever.

[Crowe 0]

I don't like Bangel much either. Well, it's ok, but it's really overrated. It's so fairy tale. I don't really buy the emotion. It just comes off as "destiny" or a story more than real love. In S1 and S2 they barely even do anything or spend time together yet it's sold like the greatest love EVER. Also the age difference creeps me out. Angel is like an adult and Buffy is a teen then, and not a very mature teen either. They don't even seem to have much in common.

Indeed. Personally, I've always taken the stance that Bangel was purely lust (read: DB & SMG have undeniable chemistry) whilst Angelia was real love (real love develops over time spent with another, read: C&A in S1,S2,S3). I also believe it's very significant in Awakening how Angel's "perfect happiness" involved Cordelia and not Buffy.

 

Really, Wes & Cordy summed up the Bangel relationship in Fredless.

 

Crowe, I don't know if you have learned this yet. But take it from me, Mole, and everyone else in this thread.

 

DON'T

 

ARGUE

 

WITH

 

ANYA

 

(she's crazy)

I'm well aware, but I can't resist. She says things that I simply must refute.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Xanya and Xander ... FUCK... Anya and Xander were good in season 4 and 5. In season 6 and 7 they consumed copious amounts of monkeynut.

 

Best Relationships (doesn't have to be romantic):

 

Giles/Buffy

Fred/Wes

Angel/Spike

Lilah/Wes

Wes/Gunn

Anya/Xander

Andrew/Anya

Andrew/Spike

Giles/Joyce

Spike/Joyce

Spike/Dawn

 

I am forgetting some, but this is in order.

[Guest Brian]

Where was Spike/Buffy before it was ruined? We need some Darla/Angellus/Druscilla/Spike representation on that list.

 

But Angel's true pure happiness was Buffy, not just a manufactured perfect day where everything went right and that ended with him screwing Cordy. Don't forget who he called out after he punched his ticket.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Spike/Buffy in season 5 was fucking awesome.

 

"Out For A Walk... BITCH."

 

I enjoyed Dru/Darla very much. It goes under Spike/Joyce. Actually, Buffy/Spike goes above Anya and Xander, as they didn't drop off too much in Season 7.

[Guest Brian]

Wes/Illyria is a fucking awesome relationship. So is Wes/Angel.

[Crowe 0]

But Angel's true pure happiness was Buffy, not just a manufactured perfect day where everything went right and that ended with him screwing Cordy. Don't forget who he called out after he punched his ticket.

It may be a manufactured perfect day, but that really doesn't matter, as it was Angel's mind that was the source for it. What's displayed in the episode are his desires. It's his perfect happiness. He wants to be with Cordelia, not Buffy.

[Guest Brian]

Yeah, but it took one moment with Buffy to produce that perfection. With Cordy, it took a series of events and sex. It was only a supporting factor that drove him to that moment of happiness.