The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Holy Shit.

 

I just realized the impact of Wes finding out that reality changed in the Connor episode in season 5. That if Connor didn't exist, then his relationship with Fred surely would have changed and that's maybe why she loved him... that the love wasn't real.

 

Like I said.

 

HOLY SHIT.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The flashback spot with Wes and Connors return to bitterness is fucking awesome. I loved this episode before, but I fucking LOOOOOVE it now. I can't wait for tomorrow. Shit, I've been waiting for this for months. FUCK YEAH!

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Connor "doing the right thing" for his father was great too. He knew it was a lie, but he lived it because it would make Angel happy. Great reversal there. Fucking hell shit goddamn, that's great storytelling. "I have to go back to my life now..." "I kinda think I should." "Gotta do what you can to protect your family... I learned that from my father" INSANE. Bring on Season 5.

[Anakin Flair 0]

Damn. I was listening to the commentary for "Conviction", and Joss said that Alexis came to him shortly before the episode was shot and told him he had come down with Bell's Palsy. This is why they focused on the left side of his face for almost the entire episode.

[SuperJerk 0]

For some reason I barely watched Season 5 when it originally aired (work related, I'm sure). I've watched all previous episodes of both "Angel" and "Buffy". I saw a few episodes of the beginning of the season, and most of the Illyria arc (but not "Time Bomb"). I bought the DVD today, and I'm going to watch the whole season straight through. I already watched "Conviction" and "Just Reward", which I already saw in 2003, and enjoyed them a ton more this time. I'm looking forward to the "Smile Time" episode.

 

Anybody know why the show was cancelled? Surely it couldn't have been ratings (I read on TV Tome that the season premiere had 5.2 million viewers, and the finale had 5.3 million). I'm sure its been discussed, but I don't feel like reading through a 208 page thread.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Fucking Best Buy didn't have it in.

 

I waited... um... 10 months, I can wait a few more days.

 

... No I can't.

[SuperJerk 0]

Really? The one I went to had about a dozen or so copies left...

 

...at 3:45 in the afternoon.

 

 

DVD sell-out, perhaps?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I dunno, I'm in Canada and that particular Best Buy is crap for selection (and Customer Service). I need me some commentary!!!!!

[Guest Brian]

I bet you want one of these don't you Rudo.

 

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

.......

 

Is that a shotgun?

[Guest Brian]

That is a shotgun. I need to get the pic fixed.

 

"Inside Out"

 

I hate Connor in that scene, saving Cordy without even saying a thing.

 

I love it when they’re piecing together the whole thing.

 

Bringing Angelus was a ploy to split Connor and Angel. Maybe Connor kills him, and you can’t stop the apocalypse/Jasmine. Because Angel was willing to make big sacrifices to make sure he saved things.

 

I love this scene. Wesley wondering why Angel should care about Lilah, and Angel saying that because Wes did. That’s cool, because it shows that they’re growing into a family.

 

It’s weird that Connor’s almost trying to defend Angel. And a big question of manipulation and moral relativity.

 

SKIP~! “Not a dupe.” God, Skip fucking rules it. “Not like last time, is it monkey boy.” Whenever you have an episode with Skip, so many moral ambiguities, good Darla, and Angel willing to kill the woman he loves for the greater good, you know you’re in for some good stuff. The slow Cordy/Connor scenes are blowing some chunks, but otherwise I think this episode gets overlooked.

 

Angel making the comeback on Skip with the chain was awesome. I love the way they shot the fight scene. And he rips off the horn, which is going to come back later on.

 

Connor saves the virgin and then knocks her out. He’s taking all Cordy’s manipulations in the ass. That’s the only fair way to say it.

 

DARLA~! This episode rules it. “The one good thing I ever did…the only good thing I ever did. I die an eternity for you.” “Don’t let my death means nothing.”

 

Skip calls them rubes. And challenges their free will. And also tells him he has to kill Cordy to save the world. And I love Skip trying to back track on the ritual.

 

“You have a choice Connor, that’s something more precious than you’ll ever know.” Darla bringing the free will. “Because we shared a soul.” This is so many shades of greatness.

 

Gunn has a pretty great little speech. Is there any episode of Angel that challenges free will as openly and greatly? And there’s nothing Fred can say to change his mind.

 

Cordy appeals to Connor’s hate of magic.

 

Is there a moment where you hate Connor and Cordy more than when they kill that girl?

 

I <heart> Skip. And Angel showing up right on time. And Cordy calling for Connor to kill him. Wes with the nine, and the little roll move into the open wound from the fight with Angel.

 

Just as Angel brings himself to killing her, he’s stopped. Are there any episodes that end on a good note this season (post Supersymmetry).

 

And Jasmine shows.

[Guest Paulster]

For why the show got cancelled, I heard that the CEO of the WB at that time was never a really big fan of Angel's, and with the ratings dropping since the season premierre and alot of pressure from Fox (WB's parent company) to either renew or cancel the show, the CEO just decided to cancel it. He got replaced a few months later, and the new CEO tried to get the show back, but everyone else had already moved on. Anyone else confirm/deny this?

[Anakin Flair 0]

I also heard that they were planning on replacing it with a remake of some 70's vampire soap opera.

 

Also, I think the WB wanted to cut Angel's budget.

[Anakin Flair 0]

Watching Damage. Nice little tribute to 'Fool For Love' with Spike: "Sorry love, I don't speak Chinese."

 

They really dropped the ball with the newly activated Slayers. It would have been nice to see them again (and we probably would have, given a 6th season).

 

And for once, I liked Andrew.

[Guest Brian]

I think they played it perfect. They managed to give an even darker side to the Slayer than Faith while distancing Angel from the scoobies.

[SuperJerk 0]

For why the show got cancelled, I heard that the CEO of the WB at that time was never a really big fan of Angel's, and with the ratings dropping since the season premierre and alot of pressure from Fox (WB's parent company) to either renew or cancel the show, the CEO just decided to cancel it.  He got replaced a few months later, and the new CEO tried to get the show back, but everyone else had already moved on.  Anyone else confirm/deny this?

WB's parent company is AOL/Time-Warner. Fox owns "Angel", though (which is why Firefly was on the Fox network, and Buffy reruns on the FX channel, and 20th Century Fox distributed the 1991 Buffy movie...TNT (another AOL-/Time-Warner network) only has Angel reruns because of a deal to keep Angel on the air a few years ago).

 

 

I also heard that they were planning on replacing it with a remake of some 70's vampire soap opera.

 

It was called "Dark Shadows". It ran from 1966-1971 with over 1200 episodes. They already did a remake of it in 1991 which flopped. I'd heard the same rumor, which I found odd since they cancelled Angel over a show that never materialized

[Guest Brian]

I'm surprised there hasn't been any Season 5 talk in this thread. Well, on to "Shiny Happy People".

 

I just realized that Jasmine allowed Angel to have his vision of a happy family, except without Cordy. Only like in Awakening, it was just a dream, a façade. It goes deep, including them cleaning out that bowling alley of vamps. Connor and Angel, Wes and Gunn, all working together. And Wes doing that staking from behind was pretty badass in its own right.

 

Was Cordy a shell, infected by Jasmine, much like Fred?

 

Obsessive Angel, not so far off from Angelus.

 

Wes shows off the brains while picking out the names, and Gunn just going for simple.

 

“You people take your senses for granted.” Is that referring to anything?

 

The Jasmine. Just like Darla in Season 2.

 

“Eradicate all evil…is that even possible.” That definitely is harkening back to Season 2, the elevator scene with Holland Manners.

 

Angel looking for credit for the good he’s done, but not for himself but for Jasmine. In Season 2, he wanted to know where things were going, what he was working towards, if his deeds were adding up to something. I love that they’re harkening back to Season 2 to give some real dimension and depth to the whole season.

 

Fred sees that face. It isn’t just the image of Jasmine that hides under a gloss but the world that she creates.

 

I love how Fred questions the mental “slavery” involved with believing in Jasmine.

 

And Fred is alone again, a little bit crazy to the others.

[Ripper 0]

It was called "Dark Shadows". It ran from 1966-1971 with over 1200 episodes. They already did a remake of it in 1991 which flopped. I'd heard the same rumor, which I found odd since they cancelled Angel over a show that never materialized

 

The 1991 show kicked all types of ass. Then they canceled it at the end of its first season.

[Guest Brian]

The Magic Bullet is one of those episodes that surprised me. I’d forgotten the exact sequence of events that began the downfall of Jasmine. It surprised me, which can be a good or a bad thing, but it's nice to be surprised when watching some of this stuff over.

 

It’s great to see that beautiful, perfect little world get interrupted by a frantic Fred running into the car.

 

Wes and Gunn talking about Jasmine, that little comment, reminds of how those two were both after Fred in Season 3.

 

I like the Magic Bullet Store guy. He’s not Denver, but the ultra-paranoid thing is great.

 

Connor talking about Holtz leaving him alone as a little kid in a heel dimension.

 

The whole Jasmine_controlling_people thing is pretty creepy. Especially when that guy on fire gets out of the car wreck.

 

Connor and Angel singing Mandy for Jasmine. Throwbacks to Season 2.

 

I love the little demon trying to cover up his tracks. And it leads to Fred figuring out the blood thing.

 

Angel with the gun was kinda tight. It felt like Angelus.

 

It seems like every time they’ve brought Angel and Connor together this season, they’ve pulled them away.

 

Doesn’t Gunn sound a bit like Xander with that “evil, not evil” bit?

 

Angel calling Fred courageous felt a lot like Wes in “A Hole in the World”.

 

I love it when Angel tumbles into Cordy’s room when they try to sneak in. Felt like when he was with Gwen in “Long Day’s Journey”.

 

Jasmine calls Connor “My sweet boy”. Darla reference, we love ye. And then so nonchalantly tells Connor she ate them, and Connor replies with a “Cool”.

 

When’s the last time he was referred to as Krevlorne Swath of the Deathwok Clan? Because everything is soooooooooo coming together.

 

“Everything we believed in…deception.” That, by Wes, echoes really nicely in Season 5, but how often we’re people being deceived and manipulated otherwise. And then Wes telling him he’s kidnapped Connor before.

 

The turn by Connor was so well done. I love it every time.

[Anakin Flair 0]

The commentary tracks on Season 5 suck. At times, I was wiching for Marti Noxon- THAT'S how boring they got. Only David Boreanez's episode had an entartaining commentary, and the commentary for 'A Hole In The World' was only so-so, as even Joss admitted that it was just them sitting around for an hour watching TV.

[Mole 0]

WB's parent company is AOL/Time-Warner. Fox owns "Angel", though (which is why Firefly was on the Fox network, and Buffy reruns on the FX channel, and 20th Century Fox distributed the 1991 Buffy movie...TNT (another AOL-/Time-Warner network) only has Angel reruns because of a deal to keep Angel on the air a few years ago).

You got your facts all run here buddy.

 

Angel is on TNT because they bought the rights to air it in syndication. FX also bought the rights to air Buffy. The studios who produce the show and the channel they air on, barely ever match up.

 

And what deal? TNT made a deal to keep Angel on the air?

[Ravenbomb 0]

I agree aboot the commentaries. I've only seen two (Conviction and A Hole in the World), and the way they talk you'd think someone was sleeping in the next room. SPEAK UP!!!

[SuperJerk 0]

WB's parent company is AOL/Time-Warner. Fox owns "Angel", though (which is why Firefly was on the Fox network, and Buffy reruns on the FX channel, and 20th Century Fox distributed the 1991 Buffy movie...TNT (another AOL-/Time-Warner network) only has Angel reruns because of a deal to keep Angel on the air a few years ago).

You got your facts all run here buddy.

 

Angel is on TNT because they bought the rights to air it in syndication. FX also bought the rights to air Buffy. The studios who produce the show and the channel they air on, barely ever match up.

 

And what deal? TNT made a deal to keep Angel on the air?

No, WB made a deal with Mutant Enemy/Fox to keep Angel on the air by agreeing to air reruns of it on TNT. I think this was at the end of the 4th season. It was also part of the deal to keep Buffy on WB after season 5 which Joss walked away from.

 

FX didn't have to "buy" the rights to air Buffy in the traditional sense, because their parent company (Fox) already own part of the show. I'm guessing Joss and Co. get residuals, though.

 

A significantly high percentage of shows owned by Fox end up on F/X, and a significantly high percentage of shows owned by Warner end up on TNT. Its not a 100% thing, but it happens.

[Guest Brian]

I'm going to punch up Sacrifice and Peace Out today, and I'm basically hoping people will get in on "Home", which I'm doing on Saturday at the end of the week before I start with Season 5 next week, with the same DVD deal. Anyways, I'm hoping people jump in because "Home" is so fucking awesome and if you go back and look at everything for the last three, and especially the last two seasons, you see how much this encompasses.

"Home" deserves all the accolade every other gem of a Buffyversse episode gets, and is definately on par in terms of bringing things together like "The Gift". So next two episodes, are on their way, then I'm prett much dormant until Saturday putting together a teaching packet.

[Mole 0]

No, WB made a deal with Mutant Enemy/Fox to keep Angel on the air by agreeing to air reruns of it on TNT. I think this was at the end of the 4th season. It was also part of the deal to keep Buffy on WB after season 5 which Joss walked away from.

News to me.

[Guest Brian]

“Someone who knows the truth has to live through this.” That line comes back at the end of the episode.

 

Angel kicks the crap out of Connor. Awesome.

 

Gunn blames the Powers for not stepping in which sounds a hell of a lot like Angel.

 

That little girl with the Jasmine voice opening up the window was so great.

 

That little conversation in the sewer was so great and intense. Boreanaz was fucking rocking it. Him and Gunn fighting, forgetting Cordelia (which he could never do), and the minute is up!

 

Wes figures out about the name first.

 

I love the way Lorne interacts with the gang in this episode.

 

This is really the second glimpse of where we get Angel willing to sacrifice the core of his group for a loved one. Him beating up Connor, and the first time being where he almost killed Cordy.

 

I love how Jasmine is looking for a reward (temple, palace, worship) and parallel this against Angel, who’s falling into the conclusion that there is no reward.

 

I think Matthew is supposed to parallel Connor in a lot of ways. A kid who falls into the war, and has to deal with Angel’s vampire.

 

I love the spider demon.

 

“Love is sacrifice.” That goes so far back, to “Heartthrob” and the vampire willing to give up his own life for his lady, to Darla killing herself to save Connor, to Wes and Connor, to Angel willing to sacrifice everything for his son, to Gunn and Professor Siedel and Fred, to “Home” where Angel defines love as his “family”.

 

Wow, Fred talks about shells with Gunn. And I love Gunn taking responsibility.

 

Lorne gets some of the best out of his time in this episode. And Boreanaz is excellent, once again. Talking about how his existence can’t be defined, because it’s not that simple, never is. So many shades of grey.

 

These Wes/Creature talks are awesome. Blood magic, more power. And that’s what Angel does in “Home”. And talking about the weakness in the names, which was Jasmine’s.

 

Gunn’s lays a beating on a little kid. Doing what he had to do. There’s a lot of that going around.

LORNE

(whining) I really hate today.

GUNN

More worried about tomorrow myself. Come on!

I love that scene when Connor and Jasmine realize they’ve found Angel.

 

Blood motherfuckin’ magic.

 

And Wes brings back Angel’s line from earlier in the episode, only this time everyone else is sacrificing themselves.

 

FRED

Hearts get in the way, right?

 

I thought that was a great line.

 

Angel is surrounded.

[Guest Brian]

Connor hints that he knows about Jasmine’s true form and has accepted it.

 

Lorne’s little interjections are great. And Wes telling her that she was omniscient. And free will has always been such an awesome theme in this series.

 

They show Jasmine from Connor’s POV.

 

I like the whole High Priest and “The Word”. It’s clever but not overdone.

 

The priest tells Angel he’s already lost everything.

 

And Lorne knows that Connor sees Jasmine. And I love Connor’s explanation, about lies (which are forthcoming) and Quor’toth. Gunn’s reaction to Wes showing that Jasmine’s eating people was great.

 

GUNN

"To Serve Man." It's "To Serve Man" all over again.

 

 

HIGH PRIEST

What is it you think you fight for, dead thing? Valor? What you call justice? Your friends are dead... most likely. Or so you believe, so it's not for them you fight.

 

The whole conversation while Angel’s fighting is so great And then he tells Angel that he’s going to lose Connor too. Always meant to be.

 

Gunn trying to break down the door, a show of determination, one of the strengths of his character. He doesn’t give up. And Wes figuring out that Cordy is Jasmine’s weak point, much like Jasmine hinted at earlier. And I like how they keep it open as if they can save Cordelia.

 

Connor’s little monologue was not so bad. Especially the finding reasons to fight, and his life built on lies. He has decent chops, just got a tiring and wearing role.

 

Gunn still kicking away at the door.

 

Jasmine asking or temple for what she’s done. And Angel pops out. And says “sorry”. He apologized, and I don’t think he has.

 

And Gunn finally gets the door down, and Wes doesn’t apologize.

 

Angel and Jasmine’s talk is great.

ANGEL

(from behind her) Jasmine, it's over. You've lost.

JASMINE

(turns to face Angel) I've lost? Do you have any idea what you've done?

ANGEL

What I had to do.

JASMINE

No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices. I offered paradise. You chose this!

ANGEL

Because I could. Because that's what you took away from us. Choice.

JASMINE

And look what free will has gotten you.

ANGEL

Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.

JASMINE

But you're not human.

ANGEL

Working on it. (Jasmine turns to walk away) Where you going?

JASMINE

(walking away) Leave me alone.

ANGEL

Sorry, but... can't do that.

JASMINE

What? You've taken everything. You're gonna try to kill me now, as if you could.

ANGEL

Maybe not. But I'll die before I let you hurt anyone else.

JASMINE

You're already dead!

ANGEL

You know what I mean. It ends right here.

JASMINE

(crying) Why do you hate me so much?

ANGEL

Let's run down the list, huh? Rain of fire, blotting out the sun, enslaving mankind, and, yeah, oh, yeah, hey, you eat people!

JASMINE

Like you never have?

ANGEL

Thousands of people are dead because of what you've done.

JASMINE

(walks up to Angel) And how many will die because of you? I could've stopped it, Angel. All of it. War, disease, poverty. How many precious, beautiful lives would've been saved in a handful of years? Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions. (walks to the edge of the bridge) This world is doomed to drown in its own blood now.

ANGEL

The price was too high, Jasmine. Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing.

JASMINE

Like me?

ANGEL

(walks up to her, stands beside her) Look, we've all done horrible things. All we can do is try and make up for it.

It reveals everything about Angel, the guilt, the redemption, the shanshu, the free will, and his re-defining of what it all means. The line about murdering thousands to save billions, and it is much like how Angel has killed and saved so many others, how it will never add up.

 

Lilah showing up and Connor killing Jasmine. What a way to end things.

[SuperJerk 0]

No, WB made a deal with Mutant Enemy/Fox to keep Angel on the air by agreeing to air reruns of it on TNT. I think this was at the end of the 4th season. It was also part of the deal to keep Buffy on WB after season 5 which Joss walked away from.

News to me.

Or so I've read.

[Guest Brian]

Holy Shit.

 

I just realized the impact of Wes finding out that reality changed in the Connor episode in season 5. That if Connor didn't exist, then his relationship with Fred surely would have changed and that's maybe why she loved him... that the love wasn't real.

 

Like I said.

 

HOLY SHIT.

I figure I'll get one good post in since I budgeted my time well.

 

I saw Origin Tuesday, and I have to concur. Wes' world came crashing when he realized what Angel had done, sacrificed his son for them. And he understood him.

 

And I think it's a turning point for Angel, because he loses everything he went to Wolfram and Hart for. Cordy died, despite his attempt to get her the best medical conditions. Connor's memories were restored, as were the others. Gunn and Wes split again. He lost Fred, the family broken. And he found, at the very least, that he couldn't change anything (at least he came to realize it, as he already had been told in "Reprise" and it had been re-affirmed many other times like in "Home" with the re-built W&H). And I thin at that point, Angel realized what the fight was all about. That questioned that had lingered since Holland Manners had asked him in the elevator, since he had told Lorne he couldn't be redeemed; it was all dawning on him. It wasn't because of family or love that he did the right thing, it was because it was the right thing. If all that makes any sense, I just wanted to put it out on the table.

 

"Origin" is quite the gem, and in a season with episodes like "A Hole in the World", "You're Welcome" and "Not Fade Away", with genius use of gimmicks like "Smile Time", I think "Origin" and "Shells" more or less get lost in the mix. Not to mention "Lineage", "Destiny" and "Sould Purpose".

 

I'm picking up Season 5 tomorrow for the DVD club next week. I hope more people are going to chime in, especially with "Home" this saturday.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Best Buy still doesn't have it. I am going fucking nuts. I may actually have to PAY for it if they don't get it within the next week