The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Anya 0]

It's not just Connor. Nobody ever really seemed to care that Anya is a mass murderer worse than Spike & Angelus combined. In fact she doesn't even show any remorse. It's just like a joke to her.

 

Buffy would forgive Spike for anything in season 6 & 7.

 

Harmony is a murderer and like Anya, it's a joke.

 

Illyria killed Fred and it was basically dropped. I don't care if she intended no malice, if she took over someone I cared for i'd never be able to look at her or forgive her.

 

 

Xander being responsible for OMWF is really messed up. Some poor guy died because of him, and nobody seems to care.

[Anya 0]

Buffy wanting to kill Anya in Selfless was an exception. Even then it was just Buffy, Willow and Xander wanted to spare her. When she became human again, it was forgotten. Even later on in Get It Done when she's whining about being a human again and joking around about killing people it's fine with the scoobies.

 

Most of the time it was a joke. She'd freely talk about slaughtering men and everyone would just laugh it off like "oh that wacky Anya!!!!". Meanwhile Xander never shuts up about how you can't trust Spike...

[Jingus 0]

All very good points. For all the hatred he endured, Spike was possibly the most noble character in the entire Buffyverse. After all, he was the only one who asked for a soul.

[Guest Brian]

Was killing the virgin even recognized by anyone? The only person who may have known is Angel, who was desperately trying to save his son, under any and all circumstances. After that, Happy Shiny, and then survival became a huge issue.

[Anya 0]

Well, Anya asked to be human again which is pretty much the same thing.

 

But yeah, Xander is so hyprocritical in his Spike hate. It's ridiculous. He never got off Spike's case about anything. Angel too.

 

Although in Anya's defense, I think most of her talk about the good old days is just Illyria-esque bluster to cope with being a mortal.

[Jingus 0]

Was killing the virgin even recognized by anyone? The only person who may have known is Angel, who was desperately trying to save his son, under any and all circumstances. After that, Happy Shiny, and then survival became a huge issue.

Whether it was known or not doesn't matter to me. The fact is that the writers never dealt with it.

 

Well, Anya asked to be human again which is pretty much the same thing.

But yeah, Xander is so hyprocritical in his Spike hate. It's ridiculous. He never got off Spike's case about anything. Angel too.

Although in Anya's defense, I think most of her talk about the good old days is just Illyria-esque bluster to cope with being a mortal.

Did Xander hate Spike & Angel because they were vampires? Or because they were Buffy's boyfriends? Or did he just happen to coincedentally hate both of these individuals? That's a point that was never addressed, and would've been in my ending thingie, but like I said before, me internet nobody, me not hollywood screenwriter.

[Anya 0]

Jealousy had a lot to do with hating Angel, but by the time spike and Buffy were together he was long past Buffy.

[areacode212 0]

Whether it was known or not doesn't matter to me.  The fact is that the writers never dealt with it. 

 

But what is there for the writers to deal with? The audience knows what Connor did, and we know it was bad. It's a big turning point for his character, where we realize just how far gone he is. Any further moralizing about how "murder is wrong" or whatever isn't necessary. Just because it was never acknowledged again doesn't mean that the writers forgot about it (especially since the end result of said killing was right there in the form of Gina Torres), just that they had more important things to get around to.

 

Did Xander hate Spike & Angel because they were vampires?  Or because they were Buffy's boyfriends?  Or did he just happen to coincedentally hate both of these individuals?

 

I think it's a little of both in Angel's case. With Spike, it was more the unreformed vampire thing (at least in S4-6), and yeah, it was a bit hypocritical considering who he was banging at the time.

[Jingus 0]

My point is, Connor did a lot of bad shit and not only was he not punished for it, nobody even called him on it. Some would say that by killing Jasmine, Connor had washed himself clean of his sins. I don't buy it. He still had a lot of blood on his hands, and he basically got away with it.

[Guest Brian]

And who was gonna do anything about it? Who was going to challenge Connor, and Angel by default.

[Jingus 0]

I'm not talking about the characters in the show. I'm talking about how the writers had Connor kill a lot of people, and then just kinda forgot about it. On a Joss Whedon show, killing an innocent human being is a big deal. It pretty much labels the murderer as EVIL if there weren't any extenuating circumstances like mind control spells or whatever.

 

Willow spent an entire year "rehabilitating" over the death of one loathesome murderer who certainly had it coming. Connor sacrifices an innocent virgin and it's literally never mentioned again. I'm just trying to point out the double standard here.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But we are to look at Connor as a victim in all this. He didn't ask to be brought up in a hell dimension or be manipulated by Holtz or to have a higher power control his entire life. We see in Season 5 Connor that if given a different history he'd be a well adjusted kid.

[Jericholic82 0]

But we are to look at Connor as a victim in all this. He didn't ask to be brought up in a hell dimension or be manipulated by Holtz or to have a higher power control his entire life. We see in Season 5 Connor that if given a different history he'd be a well adjusted kid.

like anyone else whould be

 

 

wow anyanka two years already hard to belive. anyhow I have come up with an idea as to what the characters are doing now.

 

xander has returned to the us and got his job back at the strip joint in oxnard, its true I saw him there last week

 

Anya was returned to earth by a spell casted by Dawn (who stole willows books). willow dumped whats her name and now is hosting her own internet talk show.

 

 

Andrew is still in Italy.

 

Buffy dumped the immortal and now lives in East Orange, New Jersey (sorry thats an inside joke with me and my dad)

 

and Oz reappeared and now is roomates with Xander and playing the local clubs here around Ventura county.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

like anyone else whould be

 

This brings up the "nature or nurture" argument.

 

Was Connor a naturally violent kid, or was it something that he learned?

 

This is something the Buffyverse had dealt with forever and it appears their concusion with Connor is nurture over nature. But... Harmony would say otherwise.

[areacode212 0]

Yeah, "Origin" pretty much answers that question for Connor. Nurture could also explain why Harmony is the way she is. We weren't given a whole lot of info about her human life, but I think we can assume that she had a pretty cushy life, and was too shallow & spoiled for any real anger or resentment to come to the surface once she was vamped. If Harm had a different, more difficult upbringing, it's possible that VampHarmony would have turned out a lot more like a typical vampire.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Well, Angel tells Harmony she never was part of the team because she is a vampire and that it is in her nature to be evil and betray him. Harmony says if he had more confidence in her, maybe she wouldn't have. Angel says it has to do with her not having a soul. Then you have Spike and his chip and Spike and his soul (and Angel and his). It's a very mixed message then give about whether or not our nature defines who we are.

[areacode212 0]

Ohhh, I thought you were asking why Harmony isn't so violent, compared to other vampires. Yeah, it definitely is in a vampire's nature (once they're vamped) to be evil and untrustworthy, but a lot of one's identity is still informed by environment/outside influences. I don't think it's necessarily a binary answer; it can be a little of both.

 

Angel/Angelus is a good example. Yes, Angel became a hero after he got a soul, and met Buffy (nurture). But! The part of him that's Angelus (nature) is definitely still there...we've seen him struggle with that over and over. It's a big part of who he is.

 

I'm happy with a mixed message...it doesn't have to be purely one or the other. It really depends on the character though, and what the writers were trying to do with them.

[Guest Brian]

Does the soul bring with it choice, like Faith?

[Anakin Flair 0]

Did Xander hate Spike & Angel because they were vampires? Or because they were Buffy's boyfriends? Or did he just happen to coincedentally hate both of these individuals? That's a point that was never addressed, and would've been in my ending thingie, but like I said before, me internet nobody, me not hollywood screenwriter.

 

I always thought it would have been nice if the writers made it clear that, in some way, Xander hated Spike and Angel because they were vampires- and vampires killed Jesse. You remember Jesse? His and Willows best friend since kindergarten? The one woh was killed in the very first episoed and NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN?!

I always wished they would bring that up, the they never did. Hell, FANFICTION writers bring that little fact up more than the ME people ever did.

[Anya 0]

Xander was going to talk to Jesse(as FE) in CWDP, but the actor couldn't do it.

 

Same with the planned Anya/Halfrek(FE) scene.

[areacode212 0]

Does the soul bring with it choice, like Faith?

You mean choice, as in whether to be good or evil? Yeah, I think that's precisely what the soul (in the Jossverse) does--it gives you the ability to make that choice. It doesn't necessarily make you "good" or heroic--Angel chose to walk out of the Hyperion in the 1950s, and he chose to let Dru & Darla eat those lawyers--but it gives you that capacity.

 

 

Here's what Joss has said about the topic:

 

Q. 5. I would like to get a more in-depth, coherent explanation of your concept of the soul. It seems to be the crucial thing that separates good and evil in the Buffyverse, yet at times it is treated like a commodity -- if you survive torture or know the right kind of magic you, too, can get a soul. Is it one particular soul per customer, as the white fog in the glass jar, identified as "Angel's soul" would indicate? Or is the soul merely the conscience? Why was Spike able to be "good" even without a soul?

 

A. I would love to give you a more in-depth coherent explanation of my view of the soul, and if I had one I would. The soul and my concept of it are as ephemeral as anybody’s, and possibly more so. And in terms of the show, it is something that exists to meet the needs of convenience; the truth is sometimes you can trap it in a jar; the truth is sometimes someone without one seems more interesting than someone with one. I don’t think Clem has a soul, but he’s certainly a sweet guy. Spike was definitely kind of a soulful character before he had a soul, but we made it clear that there was a level on which he could not operate. Although Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind of love that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didn’t exist for him. And although he did love Buffy and was moved by her emotionally, ultimately his desire to possess her led him to try and rape her because he couldn’t make the connection —- the difference between their dominance games and actual rape.

 

With a soul comes a more adult understanding. That is again, a little vague, but… can I say that I believe in the soul? I don’t know that I can. It’s a beautiful concept, as is resurrection and a lot of other things we have on the show that I’m not really sure I can explain and I certainly don’t believe in. It does fall prey to convenience, but at the same time it has consistently marked the real difference between somebody with a complex moral structure and someone who may be affable and even likable, but ultimately eats kittens.

[Anya 0]

in terms of the show, it is something that exists to meet the needs of convenience; the truth is sometimes you can trap it in a jar; the truth is sometimes someone without one seems more interesting than someone with one.

 

In other words, like most of the mystical stuff in the Buffyverse, the soul is a mcguffin.

[areacode212 0]

It does come off that way sometimes (like in S4 when the jar goes missing), but I'd rank the soul higher than a mere mcguffin since it has importance & meaning of its own.

[Anya 0]

Yeah, it's not as bad as some other stuff like the scythe but it is obvious the writers often use it as a tool and shape it as they see fit.

 

I like how Joss doesn't try to come up with some BS answer, he just admits it. Like with the scythe example, on the S7 dvd commentary he just flat out says yeah it's a deus ex machina ending.

 

A lot of the mystical stuff is like that. The writers seem to care about the message and emotion more than detailing how everything works, which is a reason Buffy/Angel is so good.

[areacode212 0]

A lot of the mystical stuff is like that. The writers seem to care about the message and emotion more than detailing how everything works, which is a reason Buffy/Angel is so good.

Yeah...I was arguing with someone on another (non-Buffy fandom) board who kept going on and on and on about how "stupid" the writing on Buffy was because of how they *didn't* explain things like that. Argh, so frustrating.

[Guest Brian]

"Powerplay"

 

 

ABlueEyedSamurai: there's something strangely homoerotic going on

briancasmath: Angel looks really heroic jumping through the fire. And then he vamps.

briancasmath: Doesn't the whole thing seem like a frat initiation?

ABlueEyedSamurai: very much so

ABlueEyedSamurai: cloaks, bats, wall of fire

briancasmath: I had a friend who was beat up like that, sans the vamping

ABlueEyedSamurai: did your friend have an inability to tell a lie?

briancasmath: Sort of weird doing a whole 19 hours earlier thing. And then seeing Angel with Nina.

ABlueEyedSamurai: nina had to be the worst possible, hot, love interest

ABlueEyedSamurai: she didnt really have a point

ABlueEyedSamurai: other than, you know, boobies

briancasmath: She was there to get Angel to move on with his life, or non-life

briancasmath: He had to step away from all these old forces that were driving him.

ABlueEyedSamurai: she was in like 3 epis

ABlueEyedSamurai: good lord thats some booby

ABlueEyedSamurai: i think her whole purpose was for angel exposition

briancasmath: ANGEL

(sighs)

There are— There are things that I have to do. Things that I've already set in motion that, uh...

(sighs, sits up)

I know I've spent years fighting to get somewhere... to accomplish something... and now that I'm close to it... I don't like what I see, what I am.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i wasnt a huge fan of this episode the first time i saw it, so it will be interesting to see how i react to it now

briancasmath: I love Spike and Illyria.

ABlueEyedSamurai: is spike small or is illyria tall?

briancasmath: He tells her that looking like Fred is her most devestating power.

ABlueEyedSamurai: that was a great line

ABlueEyedSamurai: especially in considering the end

ABlueEyedSamurai: baldwin owns it here

briancasmath: Angel makes an exception to the blood policy

ABlueEyedSamurai: patting the vamp on the back was a nice touch

briancasmath: Angel talking about statistics. And not saving everyone.

ABlueEyedSamurai: Wes immersing himself in the work

ABlueEyedSamurai: finding a cause to stay alive

ABlueEyedSamurai: Spike is a nice partner for Illyria, because he was once a powerful vamp too

briancasmath: Yeah, that was etched into their conversation.

briancasmath: Another reference of Holland Manners

ABlueEyedSamurai: who has been dead for a pretty long time

briancasmath: And giving Gunn a little vendetta with the senator

briancasmath: Circle of Black Thorn.

ABlueEyedSamurai: izzy!

briancasmath: Raquetball with Izzy

briancasmath: The Fell Brethren and the Baby get a mention.

ABlueEyedSamurai: did angel put that mention in the book, i forgets.

briancasmath: Yeah, he says that later

ABlueEyedSamurai: i like the lighting, or lackthereof here

briancasmath: Season three. Remind me of.

briancasmath: Would Spike sense the lack of a soul?

briancasmath: Because he didn't in Season 2 of Buffy.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i think spike knows the difference between angel and angelus well enough

ABlueEyedSamurai: but he didnt know ANGEL then

briancasmath: Or in the WWII sub

briancasmath: Nice to see Illyria take out the demon easily.

briancasmath: Nice reveal with Drogyn.

ABlueEyedSamurai: yeah, they got great maximization with him

briancasmath: Angel turning down Wesley for Hamilton.

ABlueEyedSamurai: in the commentary, jeff bell talks about how the circle logo was inspired by an insideout bottle cap tag thingie, which was pretty much what i thought when i first saw it

ABlueEyedSamurai: i wonder if the young guns reference holds any meaning

ABlueEyedSamurai: considering young guns had a rag tag band of misfits go all out against the baddies and some die along the way

briancasmath: Wes referencing the council

ABlueEyedSamurai: Illyria was such a great character

briancasmath: ILLYRIA

The intricacies of your fates are meaningless.

briancasmath: And Wes' reaction to that is great and subtle

ABlueEyedSamurai: its like the greatest tragedy of angel being cancelled was her not being fleshed out

ABlueEyedSamurai: enough, that is

briancasmath: Angel and spike walk in together

ABlueEyedSamurai: "can we get back to business" "lets go to work"

briancasmath: Shit. Bringing up Angellus makes this convo so intense.

briancasmath: Angel's finally picked up from Holland Manners.

briancasmath: What he said in the elevator.

ABlueEyedSamurai: angels justification is great here

briancasmath: "They've shown us what power is." The Black Thorn.

ABlueEyedSamurai: because his intent is still be good

briancasmath: "the small stuff"

ABlueEyedSamurai: just if it takes being bad along the way, he'll do it

ABlueEyedSamurai: ends, means... hmm... jasmine?

briancasmath: Wes is cutting.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "then i guess you dont get one" BOOM

briancasmath: "...you mean Fred."

briancasmath: Talking about Fred makes me weepy.

briancasmath: Lindsay rules

ABlueEyedSamurai: lorne and wes battling over angels logic is very similar to the logic of why the sr partners would give him WR&H

briancasmath: Angel's sending her away

ABlueEyedSamurai: is the similarity between nina and kate a coincidence?

briancasmath: He definately doesn't want to lose another person in the line of battle.

ABlueEyedSamurai: one of the greatest scenes ever

ABlueEyedSamurai: nothing better personifies the buffyverse

briancasmath: Does Illyria talking about the video game remind of her view of the world.

briancasmath: they really put over Hamilton here.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i wonder if the similarity between drogyn and hamilton are intentional

ABlueEyedSamurai: big time

briancasmath: That they were both given eternal life by different factions.

ABlueEyedSamurai: squashes her like a bug

ABlueEyedSamurai: the look lindsey gives gunn is hilarious

ABlueEyedSamurai: "duh!"

ABlueEyedSamurai: "what are you thinking?!"

briancasmath: I know he hates that Gunn's the big shot lawyer

ABlueEyedSamurai: i think its because so many people would be asking "how come we've never heard of them before" and thats josses reaction

briancasmath: Wes' reaction to Lindsay telling them he needed a kill was chilling.

briancasmath: Trying to bring him back. So fucking noble.

ABlueEyedSamurai: wes remembering connor right there.

briancasmath: And himself. Remember, the memmories were made partly to save others in the group, like Wes.

ABlueEyedSamurai: well yeah, angel ultimately forgave wes for betraying him

briancasmath: "It's still Angel."

ABlueEyedSamurai: gotta love izzys voice

briancasmath: Checking out the scene, getting a feel for everyone.

briancasmath: Gunn should have brought back the axe.

ABlueEyedSamurai: wes and his guns

briancasmath: "Everything you think you know, everything you've heard, is a lie."

ABlueEyedSamurai: i love how angel uses drogyn here

briancasmath: The whole lie thing this season has been great.

ABlueEyedSamurai: god damn this worked out better than i thought

briancasmath: I love how they gave Cordy such a big role.

briancasmath: "To make her death matter."

briancasmath: "The Senior Partners will always exist in one way or another."

briancasmath: And it's awesome that Angel finally has a retort for what Holland told him back in season two.

briancasmath: This is where they all belong. Except for Lorne, really.

ABlueEyedSamurai: and lorne saying "can we at least crawl away" is indicative of his mentality and how angel would use him

ABlueEyedSamurai: wes smiling there is awesome

ABlueEyedSamurai: a very little grin

ABlueEyedSamurai: not blinking

ABlueEyedSamurai: baldwin~!

briancasmath: The last sene with their hands going up was awesome. I mean, it fucking ruled. I was totally into it. And then fading out into the glamour and having Hamilton watch. Whew!

briancasmath: Final thoughts

ABlueEyedSamurai: much better than i remembered

ABlueEyedSamurai: especially after you take a look at the season as a whole and the final episode

ABlueEyedSamurai: it was logical and believable, and even though it all seemed to come on at the last minute, they made full use of the time they had

briancasmath: Alot better. I haven't watched this since it first aired, and I've seen everything else at some point before i watched in sequence. I think it flows pretty well together, the entire season.

ABlueEyedSamurai: drogyn was probably the best 2 shot character they ever had

ABlueEyedSamurai: or "short lived"

briancasmath: Boone was my favorite short-lived.

ABlueEyedSamurai: but they never got THAT much out of boone

ABlueEyedSamurai: like, drogyn was a pivitol character in both AHITW and PP

ABlueEyedSamurai: they could not have done what they did without him

[Guest Brian]

"Not Fade Away"

 

 

ABlueEyedSamurai: they actually use a previously on for the dvd

briancasmath: Previously on Angel...

ABlueEyedSamurai: i still think they could have given a few more episodes to establish how badass and powerful the blackthorn was

ABlueEyedSamurai: it would have given weight to the challenge they were against

briancasmath: It was so well-paced, bring the individuals out of the woodwork that I didn't mind.

briancasmath: "No rest for the wicked."

ABlueEyedSamurai: the backgrounds they use for the title characters are so lame lol

ABlueEyedSamurai: love this shot

briancasmath: Wes comes to Illyria's aid

ABlueEyedSamurai: with illyria looking up at wes, battered

briancasmath: "We don't have to trust him."

ABlueEyedSamurai: gunn botching the name intentional?

briancasmath: Gunn's never really trusted Angel.

briancasmath: "Remember your place, vampire."

briancasmath: I like that Angel's half-demon nature is frowned upon.

briancasmath: The senator says Gunn had potential.

ABlueEyedSamurai: harmony lookin smokin

briancasmath: I like that Angel is trying to figure out what being human was like, right after signing away his chance.

briancasmath: "I do remember...my heart"

ABlueEyedSamurai: angel leaving the room... for his office :-)

ABlueEyedSamurai: i like how this speech is the opposite of the one he gave the group

ABlueEyedSamurai: winning/losing vs. fighting

briancasmath: Also bringing up so many negatives, him as Angellus.

briancasmath: Very homoerotic

ABlueEyedSamurai: "I want you lindsey"

briancasmath: But very-lighthearted

ABlueEyedSamurai: very armageddonish

ABlueEyedSamurai: in both senses :-)

briancasmath: I love everyone living. Especially since it is, in part, directed at Wes.

briancasmath: Angel and Connor.

ABlueEyedSamurai: Spike at the bar

briancasmath: Getting ready for a fight.

ABlueEyedSamurai: the look in spikes eyes when he said he never had a proper funeral, fantastic!!!

ABlueEyedSamurai: one of the most annoying characters... EVER

briancasmath: But she's decent this episode.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i still remember her as the pathetic teenager

briancasmath: Wow, I didn't realize that the original Shanshu was taken by Lilah from Angel. And made it's way to the circle.

briancasmath: GUNN

What if I told you it doesn't help? What would you do if you found out that none of it matters?

That it's all controlled by forces more powerful and uncaring than we can conceive, and they will never let it get better down here. What would you do?

 

ANNIE

I'd get this truck packed before the new stuff gets here.

ABlueEyedSamurai: where did they get it in the first place?

briancasmath: They stole it from wolfram and hart's vault, when the were working with Lindsay in season 1.

briancasmath: The blind woman episode. Is is Blind date?

briancasmath: I absolutely love Wes talking about his watcher training.

briancasmath: WESLEY

The first lesson a watcher learns is to separate truth from illusion. Because in the world of magics, it's the hardest thing to do. The truth is that Fred is gone. To pretend anything else would be a lie. And since I don't actually intend to die tonight, I won't accept a lie.

ABlueEyedSamurai: a nice caveat there

ABlueEyedSamurai: "and since i dont intend to die"..

briancasmath: Spike delivering the poem he wrote is awesome.

briancasmath: So much continuity, so much conclusion for the characters.

briancasmath: I love Connor in this episode.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "at times... inappropiately erotic..."

ABlueEyedSamurai: bout damn time!! lil bastard finally bein grateful

briancasmath: I love how there are people thanking Angel. Like Wes and Connor for the alternate reality.

briancasmath: "He'll play me fair."

briancasmath: Nice that they brought up the reading from AHITW.

ABlueEyedSamurai: they could do so much with the backstories of all these characters

briancasmath: Spike raises his hand.

ABlueEyedSamurai: to see how Eve became a liason

briancasmath: More biblical references.

ABlueEyedSamurai: where lindsey went

briancasmath: "I will make trophies of their spines."

briancasmath: Gunn gets back to dusting vamps.

ABlueEyedSamurai: LOVE THIS

briancasmath: Harm.

ABlueEyedSamurai: goddamn does she look good in blue

briancasmath: She plays right into the whole thing.

briancasmath: The alley is a great reference point for the show.

ABlueEyedSamurai: and listening to what angel told her earlier fits fight in

briancasmath: "Day went by fast."

briancasmath: Gunn and Wes have a moment.

ABlueEyedSamurai: angel wes have a moment

ABlueEyedSamurai: hmm, who's dying?

briancasmath: And Illyria tells Gunn not to die.

briancasmath: "As long as it's not you."

briancasmath: I love the set-up.

ABlueEyedSamurai: cyrus vail was a great character

briancasmath: Lindsay's entrance ruled.

ABlueEyedSamurai: illyria gets all the awesome shots

briancasmath: Hamilton is great. I like him better everytime.

ABlueEyedSamurai: yeah, fo real

briancasmath: Beating Angel to the punch, and throwing him out like that reminds me of the Beast.

briancasmath: I love the Harm-Angel convo.

briancasmath: Hamilton takes the elevator.

briancasmath: That is badass.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "yeah, okay"

briancasmath: And Angel already has the recommendation.

briancasmath: "May the best man win."

ABlueEyedSamurai: the look on angels face was CLASSSSSSSSSIC

ABlueEyedSamurai: after hitting hammy

briancasmath: That punch was great, and Angel's reaction was nice.

briancasmath: "Fail everyone around you."

briancasmath: It's like a mystery with Angel and the big reveal.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "why so i could kill you?" great delivery

ABlueEyedSamurai: they needed to make hamilton and caleb an uber team

briancasmath: "And lucky for you I'm on a strict diet."

briancasmath: Cutting between those two swordfights was great.

briancasmath: And then having to watch Wes fail.

briancasmath: "Why do you keep fighting."

ABlueEyedSamurai: yeah, they are really connecting the fights together through the movement of the characters

briancasmath: CONNOR~!

briancasmath: Gunn gets a nice scene.

ABlueEyedSamurai: and then he desparados them

briancasmath: And he gets the double stake, making him a champion.

ABlueEyedSamurai: fuck, i would have loved to have seen illyria crush that shit

ABlueEyedSamurai: one of the best scenes ever

ABlueEyedSamurai: lindsey, lorne

briancasmath: This is really one great scene. Really well-played out. I like how Lorne calls it "unsavory".

ABlueEyedSamurai: lorne slouched over

briancasmath: FUCK.

ABlueEyedSamurai: DAMN!

ABlueEyedSamurai: its always badass

briancasmath: Lindsay's reaction is fucking priceless.

briancasmath: Lindsay always saw himself as too great, always too high on himself.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "good night folks" great parting line

briancasmath: Shit, Cyrus caught the blade.

briancasmath: Wes gets a little burst of magic.

ABlueEyedSamurai: fucking phone call

ABlueEyedSamurai: wes with his finest moment?

briancasmath: ILLYRIA

Wesley.

(inspects his wound)

This wound is mortal.

 

WESLEY

(he touches his wound)

Aren't we all?

briancasmath: Wes is just so great, playing it that he's ready for death.

ABlueEyedSamurai: hes been for a while

briancasmath: The change-over is beautiful.

briancasmath: ::Tear::

ABlueEyedSamurai: classic joss kiss on the forehead

ABlueEyedSamurai: "we'll be together", where wes said he always wanted to be

ABlueEyedSamurai: goddamn is this still wrecking

briancasmath: "His meaningless death."

ABlueEyedSamurai: yeah, i picked up on that too

briancasmath: Angel and Connor fighting together.

briancasmath: Slip of the tongue.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i love it

ABlueEyedSamurai: still a vampire

briancasmath: And Connor never has to see Angel feed.

briancasmath: Flip over and slo-mo was great.

briancasmath: I actually almost like the triple punch to kill him, considering he drained him of some of his power.

ABlueEyedSamurai: he went down, angel went up

ABlueEyedSamurai: eve is just a great touch

briancasmath: The shanshu:

briancasmath: ILLYRIA

Wesley.

(inspects his wound)

This wound is mortal.

 

WESLEY

(he touches his wound)

Aren't we all?

ABlueEyedSamurai: the music is building

ABlueEyedSamurai: "you feel the heat"

briancasmath: Shit, I was about to put up that line.

ABlueEyedSamurai: its great that they are creating an atmosphere to the final battle

briancasmath: "Wesley's dead."

briancasmath: And everyone feels it.

ABlueEyedSamurai: but no time for that

briancasmath: "Wishes just happen to be horses today."

briancasmath: From earlier in the season.

ABlueEyedSamurai: really?

briancasmath: And Gunn works in the line from Pylea.

ABlueEyedSamurai: and then we have the slash finish

ABlueEyedSamurai: fucking fuck that was fuck

briancasmath: I'll pull the line up from a previous review, but I think it's from "Lineage".

briancasmath: I love the whole finish.

ABlueEyedSamurai: "and if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak" - Jayne from Firefly

ABlueEyedSamurai: joss has this thing with wishes and horses

ABlueEyedSamurai: the time just flew by, lol

briancasmath: That is an amazing episode.

ABlueEyedSamurai: i want more!

briancasmath: Best. Episode. Ever.

ABlueEyedSamurai: no fucking doubt

ABlueEyedSamurai: it just had everything in it

briancasmath: That line is from the Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco

briancasmath: And I know that we still missed some great lines and references.

ABlueEyedSamurai: most definitely

ABlueEyedSamurai: it was jam packed

briancasmath: It was the perfect note to end on.

ABlueEyedSamurai: no doubt, gave a satisfying ending that somehow made you want more

[Jingus 0]

The only thing I would've changed about NFA: when Wesley blasts Vail with that last bit of magic, well, it just seems so out of character for him to do that. Wesley was never a great wizard. I wish he would've popped the shotgun out of nowhere and blasted Vail across the room in the exact same way instead.

[Ripper 0]

The only thing I would've changed about NFA: when Wesley blasts Vail with that last bit of magic, well, it just seems so out of character for him to do that. Wesley was never a great wizard. I wish he would've popped the shotgun out of nowhere and blasted Vail across the room in the exact same way instead.

I think that was more along the lines of him dying thus giving him a lil extra juice than he would normally have. Like a adrenaline burst or something that was a reaction to the pain of getting gutted.

 

 

And to randomly comment on stuff on this page without quoting(because I am a lazy fuck) When did anyone ever get the opportunity to call connor out about the whole virgin killin? I mean, after that Jasmine was born, they were a lil preoccupied, and then he goes nuts and Angel has to cut his throat. There was no chance to call him on it, unless you count the part when they were all Shiney Happy during the Jasmine period. It wouldn't have made sense to call him out then.

 

Connor was a character I liked because he was so "real' I mean, in the sense of he had a HORRIBLE life, and there was nothing that was ever going to be said or done that would make that kid be adjusted or trustful of everything. Everything he invested in throughout his life, he lost, so of course he was like that. People called him annoying but I thought it was a good character(much like season 6 Dawn, but thats another argument)

 

The soul, as I see, is just a tool that brought about accountability. Because as we saw with Faith, it was possible to be evil with a soul. But she later felt the brunt of her actions, as the souless ones never did. Spike without a soul didn't feel bad when he and Dru went on their lil killing spree in Season 5 even if he was in love with buffy after that. He tried to kill a girl in season 6 to see if the chip was still working. The only reason he would feel bad was because it disappointed buffy. I say that the soul thing is pretty universal.

 

Harmony still wanted to kill people, she just didn't because she was afraid that Angel and Co. would kill her, not because she would feel bad. Their feelings without souls were pretty consistant. Just different reasonings led to different actions.

[Guest Brian]

That was Wes last gasp of life coming out. The last little breath of hope, the part of him that may have wanted to live.