20 Most Essential Matches (1982-2001)

[Guest Ray]

About Austin-Rock;

 

The McMahon run-in *adds* to the match. It adds to the story of complete desperation Austin tells.

[Michrome 0]

More problems with Eddy-Rey:

 

* The work over Mysterio's back was very spotty, and he only selectively sold it. The lack of selling of his back that the impact of the big rana at the end would surely have hurts it.

 

* There is a blown spot in the middle that Eddy hides fairly well. Go back and watch, Mysterio tries his cartwheel rana but he is 2 feet off to the side so Guerrero just catches him and suplexes him down.

 

* The backflip DDT looked horribly contrived, as Eddy just stood there waiting for it like a doofus.

 

* If you think this was deeper than Flair-Windham from the crockett cup, I think you're insane. In fact, I'd bet you've only seen the clipped version. The depth in the Eddy-Rey match was nearly non-existant, outside of underdog vs. power guy. The back work was shrugged off, Eddy, despite wrestling with Mysterio for years, fell right into the obvious Splash Mountain trap at the end. One other thing, Eddy-Rey's depth compared to Owen-Bret is like comparing my sink to the ocean. In one, there is a brother who does not want to fight his younger brother, but also cannot afford to lose because it would destroy his ego. The other brother has been waiting his whole life to get his shot at stepping out of the shadow of Bret, who takes this match far too casually and ends up losing because of his cockiness on the victory roll.

 

* I'm not really sure how to deal with your comments on Flair-Steamboat other than, "Huh?" Wrestlewar and Clash were both definitely better than Chi Town, and they definitely kick it up past neutral at the highpoints of both.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Interesting list if nothing else, it's criminal that 1993 (wrestlings best year) is ignored though

 

Where's the Dreamrush main? Hokuto/Kandori? Tamura/Koshaka etc?

[Guest wildpegasus]

Eddy, despite wrestling with Mysterio for years, fell right into the obvious Splash Mountain trap at the end.

*

Yes, he did but in all fairness that was the first time Eddie fell into the trap in WCW. Rey did do that counter to Physcosis I believe in WCW but not to Eddie so I don't think it was that bad.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Hey, I don't care who you are but I'm sure that nobody could agree on a list like this. I sure didn't agree with this one, but it was a good read nonetheless.

[KTID 0]

Just to clear this up once and for all, I DIDN'T WRITE THIS OR THE OTHER ONE. I just posted them since I thought they were interesting reads which would spark a good discussion, which they both have BTW. They were written by Will Parrish of the now defunct AlternativeWrestling.com. Any complaints should be sent to [email protected]

[Guest Dynamic A]

>Just to clear this up once and for all, I DIDN'T WRITE THIS OR THE OTHER ONE. I

>just posted them since I thought they were interesting reads which would spark

>a good discussion, which they both have BTW. They were written by Will Parrish

>of the now defunct AlternativeWrestling.com. Any complaints should be sent to

>[email protected]

 

Good for you, because almost everything that idiot said about puroresu in his reviews was flat out wrong. Kawada broke away from Misawa in 1990 when Mitsuharu won the Triple Crown? REALLY?!?!? And that was one of the minor offenses...

 

-DA

[Lord of The Curry 0]

No Kobashi vs Hansen?

 

I call shennanigans on this list.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

More problems with Eddy-Rey:

 

* The work over Mysterio's back was very spotty, and he only selectively sold it. The lack of selling of his back that the impact of the big rana at the end would surely have hurts it.

 

* There is a blown spot in the middle that Eddy hides fairly well. Go back and watch, Mysterio tries his cartwheel rana but he is 2 feet off to the side so Guerrero just catches him and suplexes him down.

 

* The backflip DDT looked horribly contrived, as Eddy just stood there waiting for it like a doofus.

 

* If you think this was deeper than Flair-Windham from the crockett cup, I think you're insane. In fact, I'd bet you've only seen the clipped version. The depth in the Eddy-Rey match was nearly non-existant, outside of underdog vs. power guy. The back work was shrugged off, Eddy, despite wrestling with Mysterio for years, fell right into the obvious Splash Mountain trap at the end. One other thing, Eddy-Rey's depth compared to Owen-Bret is like comparing my sink to the ocean. In one, there is a brother who does not want to fight his younger brother, but also cannot afford to lose because it would destroy his ego. The other brother has been waiting his whole life to get his shot at stepping out of the shadow of Bret, who takes this match far too casually and ends up losing because of his cockiness on the victory roll.

 

* I'm not really sure how to deal with your comments on Flair-Steamboat other than, "Huh?" Wrestlewar and Clash were both definitely better than Chi Town, and they definitely kick it up past neutral at the highpoints of both.

-The back/body work was more or less just wear down offense used in the brief body of the match. It's purpose was to give Eddy a focused attack, and possibly be used as a set up for the Frog splash. It was never forgotten, and it would smoothly come back into play during transition sequences in later parts of the match. It doesn't surprise me that it wasn't sold on offense that much since that wasn't really the storyline they were going for. But Rey did sell the toll of the offense, and never did a Toyota, where he would just hop up after being stretched out. Still, this isn't as great a match as Toyota/Kong, but that's an entirely different topic.

 

-I don't think that was a blown spot, it looked intentional, and I think I've seen Eddy use the same counter to a Sasuke cartwheel once(I might have be mistaken though). Even if it was a blown spot, accidents happen, and as long as it doesn't totally kill the match I don't care. 12/6/96 has a blown crouching spot but it's still the greatest men's match of all time.

 

-This is lucha influenced Pro Style, if you don't like it watch Shoot style.

 

-Eddy/Rey is a very advanced match where they managed to somehow logically build a match with almost nothing but high spots while telling a good mutli-layered story: power vs. speed, a frustrated Rudo Eddy's attempts at humilating Rey, Rey defending his mask and pride against a guy who may finally have his number). Excellent stuff.

 

Alot of people forget how well booked the match was, and how it seemed like Eddy was surely gonna go over Rey. Than you watch the match, Rey's usual tricks weren't working, and the last counter of the springboard Hurricanrana to set up the Frog Splash was just brilliant match construction and timing.

 

Bret/Owen, Flair/Windham, and Eddy/Rey all do a good job of telling stories with their actions. It's just that Eddy/Rey managed to cut off the fat, and present it's story in a much more advanced, exciting way with almost every move and transition reinforcing the match's main theme while pushing the story along and furthering the match.

 

Also you could make a good argument for Ultimo/Rey being Rey's best WCW match, which I'm surprised hasn't been brought up.

 

-I dig the hell out of the first two Clash falls, even though the first fall does have the stuck in neutral problem. By neutral, I mean they don't do a good job of progressing the match from point A to B, they tend to go from A to A to A(ex. repeated grounded headlock roll up, same counters to the same holds). But this really isn't as big a problem as it would be at Wrestlewar.

 

Chi-Town does this as well, but overall it's the more solid match, mostly because of it's short length, and they do further the match alot better than in Wrestlewar.

 

As far as psychology goes, Wrestlewar is about as solid as you can get. Leg to set up figure four, arm to set up Double Chickenwing. But Steamboat get's a little to much caught up with the arm strategy, and as a result the match tends to get stuck in neutral alot. Not to mention that the Clash match is actually a bit more deeper, with them doing a better job of directly playing off the previous matches and builing off the prevoius falls.

 

I would Clash as the best, but the redundant by the numbers third fall puts slightly below Chi-Town IMO.

[chaosrage 0]

I don't have a problem with the length of the match.  Given the pace, and the build, it all fits together rather smoothly. If there is a rule that match must be 30 mins to be great, I certaintly don't abide by it.

 

I said it was great, I just don't call it one of the best matches ever or anything close to that. There's only so much story you can tell in a 10 minute match. Other cruiser weight matches were about 20-30 minutes and they did the same sort of stuff.

 

I've never seen RVD in a match as good as this. 

 

RVD probably has better selling now than Rey did in WCW, heh.

 

Rey did a pretty good job of putting over Eddy's wear down offense inbetween transitions like the very brief double k.o. spot after the springboard DDT. 

 

Well it should be a double KO spot since that was you know, the only move he did in about 3 minutes. What about the part where he gets up and runs around the ring?

 

As in most junior or lucha matches, some selling is sacrificed to keep the pace up.  Still most of the transition sequences are smarter and longer than most heavyweight matches. 

 

True, but Rey is so much better at selling now it's unbelievable. He actually works it into his moveset, look at the match with Hardy where he won the belt. You can really tell the difference if you sit down and watch the wcw and wwe matches back to back on the DVD.

 

For instance, Eddy crouching himself after missing the baseball slide, gives Rey plent of time to go back on offense with a plancha, which gives him even more time to sell. 

 

Then he's all better 10 seconds later as if nothing happened to him doing perfect springboards and moonsaults.

 

The flapjack/wheel kick transition near the end, where Rey slowly crawls to the outside and gingerly stands up is another good transition sequence.  Or even the missed Frog Splash before Rey's final desperation reversal.  Despite the frantic pacing of the match, both guys do an excellent job of putting over the other's attacks.

 

Eh..... I don't think so. If his back is hurting as much as it's supposed to, he wouldn't be able to jump on the top rope. Things like that bring the match down.

Edited October 31, 2003 by chaosrage

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"I said it was great, I just don't call it one of the best matches ever or anything close to that. There's only so much story you can tell in a 10 minute match. Other cruiser weight matches were about 20-30 minutes and they did the same sort of stuff. "

 

I wouldn't call it one of the best matches either, not even cracking my top 50.

 

"RVD probably has better selling now than Rey did in WCW, heh."

 

I don't watch the WWE anymore, but judging from the rest of your arguments I WON'T take your word for it.

 

"Well it should be a double KO spot since that was you know, the only move he did in about 3 minutes. What about the part where he gets up and runs around the ring?"

 

After the double k.o spot when he puts Eddy's offense behind him.

 

"True, but Rey is so much better at selling now it's unbelievable. He actually works it into his moveset, look at the match with Hardy where he won the belt. You can really tell the difference if you sit down and watch the wcw and wwe matches back to back on the DVD."

 

Rey's slowed down now over injuries, and he's starting to work more in the U.S. pro style since he moved to WWE(more simple work like limb selling and what not). The addition of more prominent limb selling hardly makes Hardy/Rey superior to Eddy/Rey.

 

"Then he's all better 10 seconds later as if nothing happened to him doing perfect springboards and moonsaults. "

 

No, he sells/rests after the plancha, and than moves on. Everybody has to no sell a little when they go back on offense, that's the way it is.

 

"Eh..... I don't think so. If his back is hurting as much as it's supposed to, he wouldn't be able to jump on the top rope. Things like that bring the match down. "

 

So I guess Rey isn't suppose to do anymore moves for the rest of the match.

 

I think I'm gonna quit responding now, because thin arguments like this are a waste of time.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

"RVD probably has better selling now than Rey did in WCW, heh."

 

I don't watch the WWE anymore, but judging from the rest of your arguments I WON'T take your word for it.

Nor should you. The statement was complete and utter poppycock.

[Guest Real F'n Show]

despite all the flaws, I still think it's a good read

[Guest trickstyle_360]

Good read.....mistakes galore and some really overrated matches on that list, but good read nonetheless.

[chaosrage 0]

I wouldn't call it one of the best matches either, not even cracking my top 50. 

 

Good, it doesn't crack my top 50 either.

 

I don't watch the WWE anymore, but judging from the rest of your arguments I WON'T take your word for it.

 

And I REALLY don't give a shit.

 

After the double k.o spot when he puts Eddy's offense behind him. 

 

There's a blistering argument. So he puts Eddy's 3 minutes of back work behind him with one double K O spot and then he gets up and RUNS AROUND IN THE RING.......... Heh, okay? God I wish I knew how to make a gif file.

 

Rey's slowed down now over injuries, and he's starting to work more in the U.S. pro style since he moved to WWE(more simple work like limb selling and what not).  The addition of more prominent limb selling hardly makes Hardy/Rey superior to Eddy/Rey.

 

Actually, Hardy's no Eddy but it makes Rey's work look more impressive. He sold the injury for the entire match and he still managed to somehow make winning the thing believable. Of course he still did moves but he worked them into the injury and the story the match was trying to tell. He didn't run around the ring or do anything stupid like that.

 

Now Rey WAS slower in WCW's dying days but since coming into the WWE I'd say he's been back to as fast as he ever was, which sorta makes me wonder if you've seen ANY of his matches in WWE at all. The only difference seems to be he's got more experience since then, he's not a 22 year old kid anymore, and it looks like he's got a better grasp on how to make a match work.

 

No, he sells/rests after the plancha, and than moves on.  Everybody has to no sell a little when they go back on offense, that's the way it is. 

 

Well, here's the problem with that. You don't "move on" after a beat down and forget it happened. It's called selling. Watch Hardy/Rey again if you don't understand what that means. Or watch Rey/Angle or Rey/Chavo or hell, anything he's done since WCW.

 

So I guess Rey isn't suppose to do anymore moves for the rest of the match. 

 

Meh, there's a big difference between doing a move and hopping on the top rope, which requires a lot of balance, the moment after you took a huge ass beating and the announcers are acting like your back is broken. Sorry if you can't see it. It's not realistic, it's kayfabe shattering. RVD is better at this surprisingly because sometimes for instance he'll try to hop to the top rope, find that he can't do it, and slowly go up. Or he'll have his ribs hurt and do a leg drop instead of a frog splash. Or he'll grab his leg right after a kick. And yet no one will ever try to argue that RVD has good selling or that his matches are the best on US soil.

 

Don't get me wrong though. This wasn't just Rey, a lot of cruiserweights in WCW had the same problem. Not Eddy, Benoit, or Malenko, but a lot of them, when they had matches it became simply one guy doing a bunch of moves and another guy doing a bunch of moves. Hey, that's terrific if you don't want matches to go anywhere and just wanna see every move in the world done in one match. But in case you ever wanted to know, that's the reason why most people rarely put them as the best of.. anything.

 

I think I'm gonna quit responding now, because thin arguments like this are a waste of time.

 

Yeah, okay. Bye.

[chaosrage 0]

Nor should you. The statement was complete and utter poppycock.

Heh, you're pretty unbiased on this subject too.

[Guest Dynamic A]

despite all the flaws, I still think it's a good read

If you like an overabundance of superfluous language to hide the fact that the guy knows nothing about which he is talking... yeah, it is a great read! I just feel sorry for newer puroresu fans who would read that tripe and mistake what he wrote for the truth.

 

-DA

[Guest ligerbomb03]

Fujinami-Maeda is one of the best matches I have ever seen.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Chaosrage, I will say this.

 

You are not understanding the story that Eddy/Rey were trying to tell. The story was not that Eddy was limiting Rey's offense with his body work. I've done explained this.

 

When you watch a match it's important to understand what the wrestlers are trying to do, and the story they are trying to tale, rather than the story you want them to tell.

 

You can pick apart any match with that criteria, which is why it's thin and pointless. Rey didn't sell that much on offense, because that wasn't the intent of the body work.

 

I also get the impression that you just don't like or understand lucha or the junior style in general, and dismissing it because it's not a U.S. heavyweight pro style match. The fast pace, vast amount of moves, and brief selling(not no selling) is something they do to stand out from the heavies. If you don't like the style in general, you don't.

 

And the stuff in the WWE for the most part is not junior style wrestling, it's small guys wrestling the same style as the big guys with a few more high flying moves.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Just one more thing about Chaosrage's problems with Eddy/Rey 97 to prove my point about as to why his argument is thin.

 

He suggests Owen/Bret Wrestlemania X is better. But if you take his argument about the body work in Havoc 97 and apply it to this match here's what you get:

 

Despite having his leg worked on for several minutes, Bret makes a comeback and hits a piledriver. Bret sells the leg, and Vince comments that with every move he does it's doing more damage to the leg.

 

Still limping, Bret than places Owen on the top rope, climbs up as well and hits the Superplex. Climbing up on the top rope, requires a great deal of a balance, especially with somebody else already up there. You can't do that with a bad knee! OMG, he's shattering Kayfabe! He's exposing the business!

 

RVD would have climbed up, and than fail off.

 

After the Suplex Bret doesn't even sell the leg until he gets up, but when he's trading shots with Owen, and running with the Sleeper, he has no limp? Bret limps as he gets up, and than runs after a whip reversal with no problem. His selling is spotty!

 

Note: These are not my true feeling on the match, I'm just showing that you can take any match and do this so sort of shit to make it look bad.

 

No I'm gonna use the ever acclaimed Wrestlewar 89 match to make a case for my stance on why it's important to understand the story the wrestler's are tyring to tell.

 

Steamboat works over the arm, the entire match. But when Flair is on offense, he has no problem in using his left arm to throw Steamboat around with Suplexes and what not. With the exception of a shake or two, Flair does 90% of his selling of the arm while Steamboat is working on it. If you didn't understand the story, you could call this no selling.

 

Maybe this is because much like the body work in Eddy/Rey, the arm was used as a set up for the other guy's offense, a focal point to give him an edge, and possibly set up the Double arm Chickenwing as was continously brought up by J.R. The arm work was not intended to limit Flair's offense, which is why it was not sold as such.

 

I imagine that Eddy chose to work over Rey's body because he didn't want to limit what he could do. If he worked over the arm or leg, Rey would have to no sell it to perform his springboards(like in the Malenko match). Eddy focused on the body, more than likely so he could have a focal point on offense, while still given Rey the opportunity to hit his high spots.

[chaosrage 0]

I thought you were leaving?

 

Okay, I haven't said anything about Bret/Owen. That was someone else. Still, it really doesn't take a lot of balance to climb up to the top turnbuckle, but it does however to SPRINGBOARD on the middle of the ROPE. Difference? I could climb up using the turnbuckle, but Bret at 200% wouldn't be able to leap up and balance himself on the rope and jump off.

 

Why would he sell his leg after the suplex? He landed on his back. Bret hobbles around the ring the whole time, and he gets thrown into the turnbuckle by Owen. Bret never runs. He might take a few steps before he jumps with the bulldog but that's not something that's even noticeable. After the KO spot (and a good 3 minutes of back work), Rey runs into the rope and dropkicks Eddy making him fall to the outside. He then gets up, runs to one side, runs to the other side, and JUMPS on the turnbuckle and JUMPS again over the rope.

 

Y'know, I'm not going to go and list everything, but you want a third example? The part close to the end where Eddy sends him into the ropes and he springboards into a moonsault. I haven't seen Bret/Owen in awhile, but I'm going to take a wild guess here and say Bret probably didn't do anything close to that.

 

Let's see, what else? Oh, I NEVER SAID THE MATCH WAS BAD!! For the third fucking time, I'm saying it was great, but it wasn't anywhere near the best match on US soil. My arguments essentially amount to that even for a 10 minute match, it wasn't perfect. Perhaps that's why they seem thin to you. I'm NOT trying to rip it to pieces. I like it. *gasp* And yeah, whether you want to admit it or not, time is a factor. If it was longer, it would probably have more mistakes. Bret/Owen was about 10 minutes longer. You don't have to look at Bret/Owen or Steamboat/Flair though, look at what I said to look at, Rey's match with Matt.

 

The story Eddy/Rey is trying to tell is pretty much the same story as Rey/Matt. Rey is the tiny underdog who keeps trying to mount a comeback and every time he gets knocked back down, though against all odds he finally pulls out the win and gets the title. The thing is with Rey/Eddy, I couldn't buy that Rey was really hurting. With Rey/Matt, I could. I don't think they were trying to tell the story of Rey being so awesome that nothing Eddy could do would affect him in the slightest, but maybe that's just me.

 

Don't try to act like he wasn't attempting to limit Rey's offense. That's total bullshit. He attacks his back for the entire match from the start when he takes a huge back bump onto the concrete. Not his body, his back. Rey actually does sell it like it is killing him, but ONLY when Eddy is working on him. When he's on attack, he becomes SUPER MEGA INVINCIBLE FEELS NO PAIN Rey.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Okay, I haven't said anything about Bret/Owen. That was someone else. Still, it really doesn't take a lot of balance to climb up to the top turnbuckle, but it does however to SPRINGBOARD on the middle of the ROPE. Difference? I could climb up using the turnbuckle, but Bret at 200% wouldn't be able to leap up and balance himself on the rope and jump off."

 

 

Why would he sell his leg after the suplex? He landed on his back. Bret hobbles around the ring the whole time, and he gets thrown into the turnbuckle by Owen. Bret never runs. He might take a few steps before he jumps with the bulldog but that's not something that's even noticeable. After the KO spot (and a good 3 minutes of back work), Rey runs into the rope and dropkicks Eddy making him fall to the outside. He then gets up, runs to one side, runs to the other side, and JUMPS on the turnbuckle and JUMPS again over the rope."

 

Your still not getting the point are you?

 

I could argue that using a springboard uses your arms and legs, not your back. And that to perform a top rope Superplex requires use of you legs. Bret does indeed run after the leg work, and at times forgets to sell it(nobody can sell something 100% of the time).

 

Do you see how empty these criticisms are, that is my point. Your argument is weak and flat out silly at parts.

 

 

"Let's see, what else? Oh, I NEVER SAID THE MATCH WAS BAD!! For the third fucking time, I'm saying it was great, but it wasn't anywhere near the best match on US soil. My arguments essentially amount to that even for a 10 minute match, it wasn't perfect. Perhaps that's why they seem thin to you."

 

Indeed. That is exactly why your argument is thin. Do you know how easy it is to prove that a match isn't perfect? Very easy, because no match is perfect, regardless the length.

 

"I don't think they were trying to tell the story of Rey being so awesome that nothing Eddy could do would affect him in the slightest, but maybe that's just me."

 

If that's the story you see, than it's obvious you don't understand the match.

 

"Don't try to act like he wasn't attempting to limit Rey's offense. That's total bullshit."

 

If that was the story than why was there no planned spots to reinforce this point? Spots by definition are planned out in advance, and if that's the story, than don't you think there would be a spot where Rey tried to hit a move, but couldn't because of his back or ribs? Oddly enough, all the spots have Eddy countering a move because he was a step ahead of Rey not because the pain in his back was too intense.

 

"He attacks his back for the entire match from the start when he takes a huge back bump onto the concrete. Not his body, his back."

 

There's some rib work snuck in there as well, Abdominal Stretch and what not, giving the impression that Eddy is working the body in general. Back is a huge focal point though, but that doesn't change the fact that it all seemed to be for offensive purposes.

 

"Rey actually does sell it like it is killing him, but ONLY when Eddy is working on him. When he's on attack, he becomes SUPER MEGA INVINCIBLE FEELS NO PAIN Rey. "

 

I've done gone over this with you, Rey always makes sure to put over Eddy's offense before going back on offense.

[chaosrage 0]

I could argue that using a springboard uses your arms and legs, not your back

Not really. Doing a springboard requires everything. You aren't going to do one with a broken back and that's that.

 

And that to perform a top rope Superplex requires use of you legs. 

 

Only one of Bret's legs was hurt. Again, it doesn't take a lot of balance, so I could easily see someone with a hurt leg putting most of his weight on his good leg and being able to suplex someone off the top rope.

 

. Bret does indeed run after the leg work, and at times forgets to sell it(nobody can sell something 100% of the time). 

 

Where? Before you answer that, I want you to tell me two things.

 

Is it noticeable? Meaning does he do it for more than a split second? Could you tell if you weren't looking for it?

 

Is it as bad as say, Rey being sent into the ropes and coming out of it in a springboard moonsault when his back is supposed to be screaming in pain?

 

Do you see how empty these criticisms are, that is my point.

 

No, I don't. That's my point.

 

Your argument is weak and flat out silly at parts. 

 

This whole thing is silly. You're sitting here arguing with me over the distinction between great and better than great. I still wouldn't put it on a top 20 tape. Deal with it.

 

Indeed. That is exactly why your argument is thin. Do you know how easy it is to prove that a match isn't perfect? Very easy, because no match is perfect, regardless the length. 

 

For a 10 minute match, it had BETTER be pretty close to perfect. Or else, what's so special about it? What does it have that other cruiserweight matches, namely Malenko/Guerrero, doesn't? As it is, Bret/Owen is much longer and a lot closer to being perfect.

 

If that's the story you see, than it's obvious you don't understand the match. 

 

Or maybe it's you that didn't understand it. I don't think it was the story it was going for, but if you don't think it was telling the story of Rey being in too much pain to mount a comeback, then the only other possible story is Rey is so great that he can magically shrug off Eddy's offense. I mean, c'mon, most of the match is all Eddy and it doesn't faze Rey one bit.

 

If  that was the story than why was there no planned spots to reinforce this point?  Spots by definition are planned out in advance, and if that's the story, than don't you think there would be a spot where Rey tried to hit a move, but couldn't because of his back or ribs?  Oddly enough, all the spots have Eddy countering a move because he was a step ahead of Rey not because the pain in his back was too intense.

 

How's about why is Rey selling his back so much if he isn't hurt? Maybe if Rey had been a little bit better at selling, it would appear as if Eddy was able to keep a step ahead of him because he was hurt.

 

There's some rib work snuck in there as well, Abdominal Stretch and what not, giving the impression that Eddy is working the body in general.  Back is a huge focal point though, but that doesn't change the fact that it all seemed to be for offensive purposes. 

 

The huge focal point on his back gives the impression that he's targeting Rey's back. Probably because of the huge spill he took onto the concrete with his back. I'm sorry, I'm not buying that he didn't intend for it to limit his moves.

 

I've done gone over this with you, Rey always makes sure to put over Eddy's offense before going back on offense.

 

Bwah, no matter how many times you go over it with me, it's just not true. A 5 second KO spot doesn't eliminate 3 minutes of work (regardless of what work it is) to the point where you can fly and hop around the ring as if you were 100%.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

This whole thing is silly. You're sitting here arguing with me over the distinction between great and better than great. I still wouldn't put it on a top 20 tape. Deal with it.

Me deal with it?

 

Your the one who started this debate. I've done nothing but defend my opinion, which is why I've even bothered to respond to your mislead match analysis. I think Eddy/Rey Havoc 97 is the best match I've ever seen on U.S. soil, now can you deal with it.

 

I've already explained why your arguments are thin to respond to your post further, I would have to repeat myself over and over again, which is a waste of time.

[KTID 0]

See guys, these lists did spark good discussion.

 

*takes bow*

[chaosrage 0]

Your the one who started this debate. I've done nothing but defend my opinion, which is why I've even bothered to respond to your mislead match analysis. I think Eddy/Rey Havoc 97 is the best match I've ever seen on U.S. soil, now can you deal with it.

It started when I said I wouldn't put it on the tape. Then you asked me why when it's "without question the greatest match in the US ever"? So I explained it. Unless you made the list, then ok, i'll take it back. I honestly don't care, it doesn't matter. I just don't see what the big deal is though since I wasn't saying it sucked.

Edited November 4, 2003 by chaosrage

[chaosrage 0]

See guys, these lists did spark good discussion.

 

*takes bow*

 

Edited November 4, 2003 by chaosrage

[Coffin Surfer 0]

It started when I said I wouldn't put it on the tape. Then you asked me why when it's "without question the greatest match in the US ever"? So I explained it. Unless you made the list, then ok, i'll take it back. I honestly don't care, it doesn't matter. I just don't see what the big deal is though since I wasn't saying it sucked.

Hmmm, I didn't think you were the one who made the first post, my mistake. As earlier, I've probably just confused your posts with someone elses again.

 

I certaintly didn't construct this list, which along with any other list has every right to be criticized.

 

I fail to see how anybody made this into a big deal.

 

In the end, my case can be summed up as this:

 

I feel that Rey/Eddy is a great match. One of the few matches from the U.S. that can reasonably hold it's own with the more advanced matches that have occured in Japan and Mexico over the past 30 years or so. I still wouldn't put it in my overall top 50 though. But it is probably both men's best matches to happen in the U.S.

 

Given the pace and storyline of the match I feel that Rey's selling was solid.

 

On the otherhand, you feel that with the fast pace it comes across as Rey brushing off Eddy's offense. You also disagree about the match's storyline, and feel that Rey's selling of the back should have played a bigger role in the match.

 

Sorry if I misinterrupted any of your ideas, but that's the impression that I got. This is hardly a big deal, just a difference of opinion.

 

While I feel your argument is flawed, I do respect that you actually gave reasoning behind your opinion, and explained why you feel the way you do about the match.

[LucharesuFan619 0]

Disregard this post, please.

Edited November 5, 2003 by LucharesuFan619

[Tim Cooke 0]

What's better than Rey/Eddy?

 

The Flair/Steamboat series is nothing more than a faster paced version of 6/11/76 Jumbo vs Funk.

 

That is of course if you were thinking Flair/Steamboat.

 

Tim, waiting for a Bret Hart match to be nominated.