Philles Get Wagner

[sfaJack 0]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1652893

 

 

PHILLIES FILL CLOSER NEED, GIVE UP DUCKWORTH

 

ESPN.com

 

The Phillies have acquired left-handed closer Billy Wagner from the Houston Astros for right-handed starter Brandon Duckworth and players to be determined, ESPN's Peter Gammons reports.

 

The Phillies have scheduled a 1 p.m. ET news conference to make what they call a "major trade announcement."

 

Wagner was 1-4 with 44 saves and a 1.78 ERA this season. Duckworth was 4-7 with a 4.94 ERA.

 

The Phillies last month elected not to exercise their options on closer Jose Mesa and right-handed reliever Mike Williams, the former closer for the Pirates.

 

Mesa is the Phillies' career saves leader with 111 from 2001-03, but struggled most of last season, going 5-7 with a 6.52 ERA and 24 saves. Often booed by fans, he lost his closer's role twice during the season, the last time with Philadelphia in the heat of the NL wild-card race with Florida. The Phillies did not reach the postseason and the Marlins went on to win the World Series.

 

Mesa rarely pitched in September, costing him a guaranteed $5.5 million contract if he finished 55 games.

 

Acquired from the Pirates in July, Williams had a combined 1-7 record with a 6.14 ERA and 28 saves. He was selected to represent Pittsburgh at the 2003 All-Star Game but slumped with the Phillies.

 

-----------------

 

Good move for Philly, and it frees money for the Astros. Looks like both sides might win this one.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

The Astros could have gotten alot more than Duckworth who has gone from an up and rising young pitcher to an over-rated prospect. Unless the Astros use the money to sign Pettite this trade is pretty one sided(thus far that is, I'd have to see what prospects they're getting)

[A Happy Medium 0]

This seems to be a good pickup for the Phils. But I'm wondering, how is Wagner's health. I remember him having some injury problems.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

He's had back problems in the past but he was completely fine last year. So long as the Phillies get a decent set-up guy so Wagner doesn't have to pitch 2innings more than 10 times the entire season they'll be fine.

 

It would also help for them to resign Milwood since he was a big innings eater for them, thus saving on the bullpen tremendously

[the pinjockey 0]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

 

I can't believe that is all they had to give up (assuming the other player isn't a big prospect, which they usually aren't). Giving up nothing, while not having to take on Hidalgo's contract is awesome.

[A Happy Medium 0]

Also, it helps my Cubbies next year because Wagner is out of the Central.

[the pinjockey 0]

They aren't resigning Millwood. First of all, he isn't worth what some team will end up paying for him. Second, he would turn into a Mesa situation very quickly if he had one bad outing. For reference, he was the only player booed during the Vet closing ceremonies and when he tossed his hat into the crowd the fans chanted throw it back.

[the pinjockey 0]

Well, one of the prospects is Taylor Buchholz. He is a good prospect who would probably jump into the Astros rotation this year or next. So the Astros did get a player out of this. And they got a Class A pitcher, who isn't Cole Hamels, so whatever.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

They aren't resigning Millwood. First of all, he isn't worth what some team will end up paying for him. Second, he would turn into a Mesa situation very quickly if he had one bad outing. For reference, he was the only player booed during the Vet closing ceremonies and when he tossed his hat into the crowd the fans chanted throw it back.

The Phillies don't have enough starting pitching to let Milwood walk. Colon isn't going to go to the NL, Pettite will most likely be able to sign with the Astros now that they have Wagner's contract off the books. So what's that leave? Nothing in the way of number 1 starters and that's what the Phillies need...I mean Randy Wolf is good but he's not a number 1

[sfaJack 0]

He's had back problems in the past but he was completely fine last year. So long as the Phillies get a decent set-up guy so Wagner doesn't have to pitch 2innings more than 10 times the entire season they'll be fine.

Uh, no.

 

Wagner's major injury problems, which were all the way back in 2000, were elbow-related; he's never had a back problem in his career. The only other time he's even had problems pitching outside of the elbow injuries was due to fatigue from being overworked, and that is something that is easilly avoided.

 

And Wagner rarely pitches more than 2 innings at a time, even with Jimy Williams' over-reliance on the bullpen. He HATES doing it, and usually pitches a fit when he has to do so.

[the pinjockey 0]

Rumors have been thrown around about Vazquez and Schilling. Schilling, especially, is quite the mentioned topic.

 

And there is no way in hell Millwood will want to come back.

[the pinjockey 0]

I wouldn't worry about the two inning deal. With Cormier, they have an 8th inning man if they put him in that position. They do need to pick up a couple of good arms for the 6th and 7th inning, but they don't need to worry about getting a premium set up man.

[sfaJack 0]

Pettite will most likely be able to sign with the Astros now that they have Wagner's contract off the books.

Pettitte isn't signing with the Astros unless they clear another huge contract from their books first (i.e. Hidalgo) because they won't have the money to pay him the $10-15 mil per year he's going to cost. Drayton McLane is very tight with his budget, and the money they'll save from Wagner is basically already spent between the huge rise in Bagwell's contract, Lance Berkman's raise, a small bump in Hidalgo's contract, and what will probably be costly arbitration with Roy Oswalt and Wade Miller.

 

I'll be VERY surprised if Pettitte signs without some further purging first....

[Guest FrigidSoul]

Taylor Buchholz has had rotator cuff problems, those can be very serious. I mean a Fastball in the low-mid 90s along with a curveball that buckles knees isn't anything to laugh at but I still think he needs to have a full season in Triple-A before he comes up to the majors to prove he can handle the next level (since most of his work was in Double-A) both on a workload level and just getting hitters out. I wouldn't expect to see him in the majors before 2005.

 

And Wagner has had lower back problems. Mainly back spasms.

 

Schilling could very well go back to the Phillies but the Phillies would probably have to part with a decent prospect and take the contract of Junior Spivey as well

[Guest FrigidSoul]

Pettite said he'd take a discount to pitch closer to home

[sfaJack 0]

And Wagner has had lower back problems. Mainly back spasms.

And when would this be? Living in Houston, I watch a lot of Astros' games and I can't remember Wagner missing any time over the last few seasons with back spasms. It's certainly not a pressing concern though, even if he has had them before.

 

I've heard that Pettitte is willing to give a hometown discount to pitch here, but he better be ready to accept only $5 mil per year or so to pitch in Houston because without any further salary purgings, that is probably all he's going to get from the Astros. Two reasons: 1) McLane is tight with the pursestrings, and 2) he got burned by the Drabek/Swindell signings back in 1993, his first year as owner and has been very reluctant to spend big money on a free agent pitcher since. He didn't want to pay Darryl Kile and he traded Mike Hampton before his contract came up...hell, he didn't even try to re-sign Randy Johnson.

[Guest FrigidSoul]

Wagner had back spasms in 2002

 

Also since you're an Astros fan I'll let ya know Jayson Stark is saying the Astros might be looking to move Hidalgo's contract to make more room for money and they are going after Andy Pettite now.

[sfaJack 0]

Wagner had back spasms in 2002

 

Also since you're an Astros fan I'll let ya know Jayson Stark is saying the Astros might be looking to move Hidalgo's contract to make more room for money and they are going after Andy Pettite now.

Ok, fine...IF Wagner had back spasms last year, they didn't cause him to miss any time, nor they did they obviously affect his performance. I don't think I'd be too concerned about it, regardless.

 

 

Secondly, I never said I was an Astros fan. Quite the opposite actually, since they are division rivals with my Cubbies. They're just the local team so I watch a lot of their games. Please do not label me as an Astros' fan....I wouldn't be able to stand that.

 

Jayson Stark is just NOW saying that the Astros are trying to move Hidalgo?? Wow, he's slow. They've been trying to move him since after the 2001 season, when he flopped in the first year of his huge contract, but have yet to find a retarded GM dumb enough to take him. It's nothing new. You don't have to "let me know" something that's been brewing for nearly two years now, but thanks anyway.

 

And I have no doubt the Astros are going after Pettitte. They'd be fools not to. All I'm trying to say (for the third time now) is that without Houston getting rid of another huge contract, there is very little chance that Pettitte signs with the Astros, unless he is willing to pitch for $5-6 mil a year; they just don't have the money in their rigid budget otherwise. If they manage to dump Hidalgo, then I would say their chances of landing Pettitte are pretty good...but not until they dump a contract.

[the pinjockey 0]

edit: nevermind. One year left for Hidalgo at 12 mil with a team option for 15 mil in 2005 with a 3 million dollar buyout. If any team takes that they are retarded.

Edited November 3, 2003 by the pinjockey

[Guest FrigidSoul]

My mistake, I figured since you were watching Astros games constantly you were an Astros fan. As a Red Sox fan I constantly root for your Cubs to do something every year, one of these teams has to win it all soon

 

Wagner missed a few games in 2002 due to the spasms, nothing significant though.

 

After Hidalgo's season I wouldn't be surprised if some teams were interested in him. Seattle sure could use him since they aren't resigning Cameron. They could move Randy Winn to CF and have Hidalgo patrol LF

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Quite obviously I'm excited about this trade. Wagner is probably the third best closer in the National League, behind Gagne and Smoltz. He's a tremendous upgrade over Mesa, and he's the best closer the Phillies have had since Tug McGraw. Wagner doesn't fuck around. He'll go in, throw strikes, and get batters out.

 

As for the prospects, Taylor is an excellent AA prospect, and he's really the jewel of this trade from where the Astros are sitting. He could find his way to the rotation by 2005. The Phillies have lots of depth in the minor leagues, so they can afford to let pitching go in order to improve the big club.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Quite obviously I'm exciting about this trade, as well, since it no longer means that a Astro's lead after 8 innings means the game is over.

[Bored 0]

Quite obviously I'm exciting about this trade, as well, since it no longer means that a Astro's lead after 8 innings means the game is over.

Hmmm I wouldn't say that. Part of why the Astros can make that deal is they have Octavio Dotel who should be able to step into the closer job without any problems.

[Mik 0]

Dotel didn't do such a hot job when Wagner was injured.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Fuck Drayton McClaine. This trade sucks for the Astros. They lose on of the best closers in baseball. Mik is right Dotel struggled replacing Wagner. So it's no guarantee Dotel or Lidge can step into the role.

 

Is it possible, that Duckworth might be converted to closer? He's a hard thrower, who might be able strive pitching 1 inning a night.

[the pinjockey 0]

I don't see it. His K's were down and he has some trouble throwing strikes. He really doesn't seem to have the closer mentality either.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Dotel didn't do such a hot job when Wagner was injured.

 

1. That was three years ago. Would you honestly make personnel decisions on three year old data. There's three full seasons of stats to back up the claim that Dotel can pitch effectively.

 

2. We're talking 2000 here. NO ONE on the Astros pitching staff that year could pitch worth a damn. Their best starter had a 4.81 ERA, and the other four had ERAs above 5. Wade Miller had a 5.14 ERA. Should he not start games now for the Astros? Jose Lima had a 6.65 ERA. Should he not start now for the Royals? Shane Reynolds had a 5.22 ERA. Should he not start for the Braves? (Well yeah, but you get the point)

 

Fact is, Dotel slashed his walk rate after the 2001 season. Any pitcher who can strike out over a batter an inning while keeping his walks below 3 per 9 IP is fully capable of closing games, in my book.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I don't see it. His K's were down and he has some trouble throwing strikes. He really doesn't seem to have the closer mentality either.

 

Duckworth worries me. His achillies heel the last two years is his HR rate, and he's moving to Minute Maid Park.

[the pinjockey 0]

I think his HR rate stems from the fact he gets in hitter's counts way too often and then has to groove one.

 

And Duckworth worrieD me. Not my problem anymore. WHOOOOO. I was hoping, going into the offseason, that Montreal would be the team to overvalue him and make him a big point of a Vazquez deal. This works though.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Dotel didn't do such a hot job when Wagner was injured.

 

1. That was three years ago. Would you honestly make personnel decisions on three year old data. There's three full seasons of stats to back up the claim that Dotel can pitch effectively.

 

You can't go by 3 year old numbers, but it certainly isn't a lock Dotel will be able close games with effectivness. It's a big dfference setting up, and closing games. Some pitchers reguardless of talent, aren't cut out to close games.