Damaramu 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Fact is that the good wrestlers today showed some glimmer of hope whenever they first started.......Orton has shown no such glimmer. He has sucked pretty much from day one. I have not seen any improvement in his matches at all. It's funny because the anti-smarks have as big of a double standard as the smarks. Orton can't get over after nearly a year of doing his shit and hasn't improved in the ring AT ALL and it's "Give him a chance! He hasn't had any time! He's had shitty opponents!" Yet whenever Benoit has a bad match with Rhyno and doesn't get a reaction for it..it's "Benoit doesn't have it! Benoit doesn't draw! The fans don't care! Get rid of him!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Or don't, and keep bitching. At least some of us can see the state of wrestling for what it is now: Rebuilding and Establishing New Faces. Wow, the WWE has been pushing that line for what... *2* years now?? When they finally "rebuild" and "establish" call me... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted November 6, 2003 The "Internet Match" thing was simply a plea for you "holier than thou" supersmark posters to view The Smackdown tag as Benoit/Angle Vs. The Hosses....a plea for you to enjoy their struggle, and hopefully, their victory. It reflects (once the dead weight on their team is gone) the two top mat-workers Vs. The Slugs. THAT was a plea? It seemed like more of a thinly-veiled put-down to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UseTheSledgehammerUh 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Orton's had shitty workers to build his worth against. The one's that he has wrestled that are decent, take The Hurricane, he goes over and everyone bitches because "Hurricane should be pushed, not Randy!" Even though Hurricane has less of a box-office future. The "smarks" seem to forget that pro wrestling is a business sometimes...and that it isn't always about who's best being pushed. It's about pushing talent that is 1)marketable (Orton's got the look), 2)believeable (he's a ripped guy that has some of the best character movements on RAW, and believably can hurt people) and 3)can draw (Orton's moveset and skill is developing, and he's becoming a bigger star, and able to work bigger matches...you'll see). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damaramu 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Orton's had shitty workers to build his worth against. The one's that he has wrestled that are decent, take The Hurricane, he goes over and everyone bitches because "Hurricane should be pushed, not Randy!" Even though Hurricane has less of a box-office future. The "smarks" seem to forget that pro wrestling is a business sometimes...and that it isn't always about who's best being pushed. It's about pushing talent that is 1)marketable (Orton's got the look), 2)believeable (he's a ripped guy that has some of the best character movements on RAW, and believably can hurt people) and 3)can draw (Orton's moveset and skill is developing, and he's becoming a bigger star, and able to work bigger matches...you'll see). Yes he's so believable......yet he gets no reaction at all and Hurricane generally gets a good reaction. So why should Orton be pushed? Oh right he shouldn't.....that's just a bullshit WWE company line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Hurricane has way more merchandising possibilities than Orton. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UseTheSledgehammerUh 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Rudo, yes he does. The other aspects of Orton far outweight Helms, however. Helms has reached the peak of what he can do. He's pretty repetitive right now, but DOES sell merchandise with his ridiculous gimmick. Where does Helms go from here? Orton, on the other hand, is finally being pushed with purpose, not just pushed "up there with HHH and Flair" as a placeholder in Evolution. Orton has nowhere to go but up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Rudo, yes he does. The other aspects of Orton far outweight Helms, however. Helms has reached the peak of what he can do. He's pretty repetitive right now, but DOES sell merchandise with his ridiculous gimmick. Where does Helms go from here? Orton, on the other hand, is finally being pushed with purpose, not just pushed "up there with HHH and Flair" as a placeholder in Evolution. Orton has nowhere to go but up. Just curious-Are you just stringing everyone along for the fun of it here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damaramu 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Rudo, yes he does. The other aspects of Orton far outweight Helms, however. Helms has reached the peak of what he can do. He's pretty repetitive right now, but DOES sell merchandise with his ridiculous gimmick. Where does Helms go from here? Orton, on the other hand, is finally being pushed with purpose, not just pushed "up there with HHH and Flair" as a placeholder in Evolution. Orton has nowhere to go but up. Problem is that it's the only place he's had to go for a good 8 months......and he well HASN'T GONE THERE! His push needs to be written off as failed.....because it ain't doing good for anybody. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Funny, cause with Ortons rise is moving in the opposite direction of the WWE... I doubt he'll be drawing fans in any time soon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Hurricane is more over than Orton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Czech Republic 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Hurricane is more over than Orton I'm more over than Orton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 The Chort is more over then Orton. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Czech Republic 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 The Chort is more over then Orton. Homsar is more over than Orton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 The Sneak is DEFINETLY more over the Orton. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Here's the problem--people will watch good wrestling backed by good storylines. WWE doesn't have the good storylines. Characters will draw if the fans care about them, which only happens if you give the fans reasons to care. That's why the only developed characters--usually the veterans, GMs, Vince--SEEM to be "draws." The rest people don't care about because WWE doesn't care to develop them. The Booker T and Christian feud...Christian cheated to win the title, but after that, there was little feud development, and the only promo time Christian got was "whining" about how he gets no respect as IC champ. So, Austin punks him out and JR cheers Austin on. Why care about the feud? WWE heels--save for a few like Trips--generally are castrated throughout the feuds, and since the faces are usually booked to win the blowoff, why should the fans care? Take a look at...the entire Angle-Lesnar feud leading up to WMXIX. Wow, that Doink-switch outsmarting of Brock totally made Angle look strong and made me forget what a pussy he looked like the preceeding several months. Produce a consistent, logical product. Fuck shock TV. If there's only a single *** match on a show, and the rest are okay, the matches were of decent length, and nothing was too stupid, that's a good show to me. Consistent quality draws consistent customers. Shock TV provided sporadic bumps in ratings, but nothing concrete or long-term. WWE can't deliver that. I liked what they were doing with SD, because they seemed to by trying to cater to the wrestling fans and doing what they should do: turn casuals into hardcore fans. Make them like the wrestling. Really, what's the one unique thing that WWE should be stressing that viewers can't get on Friends, or Frasier, or football, or your typical stupid sitcom or reality TV show? No, it isn't shitty writing, McMahons, soft porn, and so forth. It's the wrestling. Whether it's brawling, lucha, garbage, technical, power--WHAT THE FREAK EVER... However, there should be a little of all for everyone to enjoy. Not a homogenized, lame standard OVW offense. Then all the matches look alike, and there's little interest. I want to see hosses, provided that they're capable workers. WWE should be making use of their seasoned talent, not wasting them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted November 6, 2003 I will give WWE credit for actually doing more to mix and match in the past three weeks than they have done in the past two years. And I personally would rather see them try and fail with guys like Jindrak, Cade, Orton and Maven. It would be even worse to never try. In a perfect world, Jericho, Benoit, Booker, RVD, Angle and Guerrero would be on top right now and guys like Orton and Cena would be getting strong midcard pushes and feuds with guys like Michaels and Taker where they learn how to work the style the company wants them to work. That's obviously not happening at quite the level it really should, and it's too early to call anything a turnaround until they can get good and stay consistent about it for months at a time and the fruits of the labor start to surface. WWE is right that sometimes it does take years to create a new star. But sometimes, it can be done in months. They've proven that with guys like Angle and Lesnar. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it is hard to get excited about a good PPV when the fanbase was spoiled on great ones for a while, yet at the same time, writing wrestlers off before giving them a chance to improve is ridiculous and more than a little markish. I'd personally rather see wrestlers like John Heidenrich get increased match time and promo time just because something may somehow click and it's a risk worth taking than I would see Angle and Lesnar go 20 minutes just because at least a new chance on a new star is being taken. What's sad about it all is that the perfect time to create new stars is when business is good, not when business is down, because no one pays attention to the new guys and they're perceived as second rate. We saw it with WCW and we're seeing it now. We're at least two years away from 6.0-7.0 ratings and being the darling of the media and awesome pay-per-views I'm afraid. It's up to the individual to decide whether or not he has the patience to wait for things to get better. At this point, some don't care anymore and I don't blame them. They have given WWE countless chances to improve and it hasn't happened. Sadly, I fear that the last few weeks of good TV on RAW can be attributed almost entirely to the absence of Stephanie McMahon from booking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jack_Bauer 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 I will give WWE credit for actually doing more to mix and match in the past three weeks than they have done in the past two years. And I personally would rather see them try and fail with guys like Jindrak, Cade, Orton and Maven. It would be even worse to never try. I completely agree, but even if the push fails WWE will STILL push them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Plushy Al Logan Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Whatever man, go watch the most overrated talent of the 90's, Vader then. He's a good worker, yes, but most of his U.S. fame came from a monster push in a bush league and ALWAYS being booked in programs with superior talents (Michaels, Flair, Sting, Cactus, etc.). And if you wanna bash the "Hoss" Team for being UNSAFE....then look at VADER, goddamnit, his record isn't very clean. Vader was dead and buried by then. Michaels just dug up the grave, had sex with the corpse, shit on it, invited Sid to shit on it, and then he had sex with it. I'm sad to say it, but the only match I'm looking forward to is Team Angle vs. Team Natural Disasters version 2.0. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted November 6, 2003 At what exact point would you say the pushes have failed? I wouldn't call them successes by any means, but I compare every push to the one HHH got, and if they haven't been pushed THAT hard and failed, then they haven't been given a full chance. If they have and still haven't gotten over, then they've failed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ISportsFan 0 Report post Posted November 6, 2003 At what exact point would you say the pushes have failed? I wouldn't call them successes by any means, but I compare every push to the one HHH got, and if they haven't been pushed THAT hard and failed, then they haven't been given a full chance. If they have and still haven't gotten over, then they've failed. I don't know if anyone else will ever get the push HHH got to the top ever again. From King of the Ring 1999, interfering in the WWF title match, to beating Rock in a strap match when Rock was really hot (although with interference), to not being pinned in the SummerSlam title match, to beating Foley for the title on Raw, to winning the Six-Pack at Unforgiven to regain his title, to beating AUSTIN (something almost nobody did) at No Mercy, and finally pinning Mick Foley three times on three straight PPVs in 2000. He only finally got over at the Royal Rumble when Foley made him a star. I don't think anyone else will ever get a push like that again to begin a main event career. Jason Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted November 6, 2003 The scary thing is this...This was well before Stephanie and Hunter became a item... What exactly did McMahon see in HHH (please refrain from Gay/Roid jokes) that he wanted to give HHH, a mid-carder for the past 3 years a MONSTER PUSH? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted November 6, 2003 I think in his mind that HHH was a WWF creation and a guy had been loyal to him during the promotional wars of the late 90s. He was also friends with the right people and came back from a knee injury bigger than he had ever been, which I think made Vince see him in a slightly different light. It was a combination of factors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Megatron Report post Posted November 6, 2003 The scary thing is this...This was well before Stephanie and Hunter became a item... What exactly did McMahon see in HHH (please refrain from Gay/Roid jokes) that he wanted to give HHH, a mid-carder for the past 3 years a MONSTER PUSH? Maybe the same thing he sees in Orton, whatever that is. I think he just felt bad because he had treated him as the scapegoat for the Kliq after Hall/Nash left. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted November 6, 2003 At least HHH had a semblence of talent and charisma in his blue blood days and of course was a MONSTER face with DX to boot. orton has nothing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Megatron Report post Posted November 6, 2003 orton has nothing. I'll give you that. But then again, I don't push guys, I just watch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 6, 2003 They were contractually obligated to give him the belt in 99 is one of the reasons. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Megatron Report post Posted November 6, 2003 They were contractually obligated to give him the belt in 99 is one of the reasons. I don't buy that........ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Were you on the net back then? It was pretty well know around WMXV that he was going to get the belt before the year was over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Megatron Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Were you on the net back then? It was pretty well know around WMXV that he was going to get the belt before the year was over. That may be true. But I don't buy that it was written into his contract. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
