CZW Truth or Consequences Review

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

So I finally got around to doing a CZW review. Feedback it if you want, if not, no big whoop.

 

http://thesmartmarks.com/artman/publish/ar...icle_1255.shtml

[bob_barron 0]

You and Tim Madden both do the same tape in the span of a few days?

 

CONSPIRACY!

 

Good stuff btw

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

Thanks Bob- and I read Tim's review, good good stuff. Gotta get as many opinions on each show as possible, and as much CZW net coverage as possible.

[PsychoDriver 0]

I’m pleased to welcome SoCal Uncensored’s Steve Bryant into the Paradise City Ninjas. Steve’s knowledge of the widely overlooked wrestling haven of Southern California will go a long way toward making TSM a complete resource for independent action. Steve and I will hopefully be covering PWG and PCW events in the very near future, along with other Southern California promotions

 

That's good to hear, Steve knows his stuff. Looking forward to reading SoCal reviews...

 

Anyway good review, I liked that it was aimed at Non-CZW fans.

[Tim Cooke 0]

I liked the angle at the end of the show but B-Boy vs. Rave ****1/2?

 

That's as crazy as the inflated ratings for the Shelley/Jacobs IWA-MS stuff from 7/19/03.

 

Tim

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

I’m pleased to welcome SoCal Uncensored’s Steve Bryant into the Paradise City Ninjas. Steve’s knowledge of the widely overlooked wrestling haven of Southern California will go a long way toward making TSM a complete resource for independent action. Steve and I will hopefully be covering PWG and PCW events in the very near future, along with other Southern California promotions

 

That's good to hear, Steve knows his stuff. Looking forward to reading SoCal reviews...

 

Anyway good review, I liked that it was aimed at Non-CZW fans.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. I can't wait to see some SoCal stuff, I'm trying to work out a promotional deal with Aaron Proctor for PCW stuff, and I'm picking up the new PWG DVD.

 

I'm glad you picked up that I try and gear this stuff to non-fans, the goal of my reviews has always been to introduce people to stuff they're unfamiliar with and find the alternative that's right for them.

 

And Tim- you have your opinion, and I have mine. I know you like to think your opinion is fact, but people can differ in how highly they think of a match.

 

For example, I LOVE Rock/Hogan from WM18. I'm crazy like that.

[Michrome 0]

Based on those ratings I want to buy the show, would other people concur with them? I really have a hard time believing Rave vs. B-Boy was ****1/2, but hey, I haven't seen it and anything is possible.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

You can go to the tape recommendation section on CZWFans' message board, and like Bob said, Tim Madden has a review of it on 411.

 

My ratings aren't so much based on, "what are the flaws in this match, how tight/realistic is it?" as "was I drawn into this match/how much fun did I have watching it?"

[bob_barron 0]

Tim Madden gave Rave v. B-Boy *** btw.

[LucharesuFan619 0]

You and Tim Madden both do the same tape in the span of a few days?

 

CONSPIRACY!

 

Good stuff btw

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

Review Deja Vu II next. I'm ordering that next week and am looking for some reviews.

 

Good review, BTW. I loved the match reviews and I like your style more so than Madden's. I must say, though...your ratings are quite high, man. REALLY high.

 

It sounds as if Blade changed the SFJ from a submission to an actual move? Am I interpeting this right?

 

I did have one qualm - Grim Reefer is NO "spot wrestler." You clearly haven't seen his other indy stuff. Check out the review of his best of tape at the DOI site. The guy can f*ckin GO. He holds the claim to fame of INVENTING the satellite headscissors takedown into the crossface (nobody - not even in Japan - used it before him), a move Jimmy Rave now uses on a regular basis.

Edited November 13, 2003 by LucharesuFan619

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

I did have one qualm - Grim Reefer is NO "spot wrestler." You clearly haven't seen his other indy stuff. Check out the review of his best of tape at the DOI site. The guy can f*ckin GO. He holds the claim to fame of INVENTING the satellite headscissors takedown into the crossface (nobody - not even in Japan - used it before him), a move Jimmy Rave now uses on a regular basis.

Nope, the only stuff I've seen is his other CZW match. Name some feds and I'll try to track some stuff down.

 

And I do want to see DJ2 because of AJ/Rave and Sonjay/Bailey part 1. Don't have it yet though- soon.

[Tim Cooke 0]

There is something called objectivity and subjectivity.

 

If I had the tape with me, I would watch the match again and break it down but I don't.

 

But ****1/2 is a MOTYC. That match was NOT a MOTYC.

 

Oh and I also liked Rock/Hogan. Very smartly worked match that got the heat it deserved for being worked so smartly.

 

Tim

[Guest trickstyle_360]

B-Boy and Rave wasn't ****1/2, but jesus, it was the guy's opinion. If you don't agree with it, fine, but shit, get off his back about it. IMO B-Boy vs Rave was ***3/4.

[LucharesuFan619 0]

I did have one qualm - Grim Reefer is NO "spot wrestler." You clearly haven't seen his other indy stuff. Check out the review of his best of tape at the DOI site. The guy can f*ckin GO. He holds the claim to fame of INVENTING the satellite headscissors takedown into the crossface (nobody - not even in Japan - used it before him), a move Jimmy Rave now uses on a regular basis.

Nope, the only stuff I've seen is his other CZW match. Name some feds and I'll try to track some stuff down.

 

And I do want to see DJ2 because of AJ/Rave and Sonjay/Bailey part 1. Don't have it yet though- soon.

After reading the Reefer Best of review at http://www.declarationofindependents.net/d...reefertape.html , I checked out the three-way w/ Deranged and Azrael from USA Pro and it really is absolutely fantastic. Reefer also works ICW and the LIWF regularly. He's got a really innovative repertoire of moves - he uses a friggin' Frog Splash Suicida (out to ringside), a tumbleweed, and an awesome Skytwister Press variation.

[Michrome 0]

I've always been baffled by how this goes down. One person posts a review, and asks for feedback. Someone gives feedback, and disagrees with part of it. Then the person who gave said opinion in the first place and those who agree all jump in and say, "It's only an opinion everyone has their own!!!" Exactly, and that's why Tim has the opinion that you overrated it. Why do only columnists get an opinion? Can't readers disagree? Or is that being snobby?

[LucharesuFan619 0]

I've always been baffled by how this goes down.  One person posts a review, and asks for feedback. Someone gives feedback, and disagrees with part of it.  Then the person who gave said opinion in the first place and those who agree all jump in and say, "It's only an opinion everyone has their own!!!"  Exactly, and that's why Tim has the opinion that you overrated it.  Why do only columnists get an opinion?  Can't readers disagree?  Or is that being snobby?

You're wrong and everybody else is right. Period.

[PsychoDriver 0]

I'm picking up the new PWG DVD.

Good, that show was awesome.. SD/B-Boy Vs. The Briscoes was very very good.

 

I hope just you are kinder to Excalibur's commentary this time. On the "Best of Messiah" review, you kinda unjustly IMO tore the poor guy up.

 

I’d like to take this time to rip the absolutely horrifying EPIC announce team (Larry Rivera and some other guy.) Some gems from these two communications community college rejects:

 

Guy: “Is it a good idea to give the opponent advice before the match? Rivera: I agree.”

Guy: “Joey Ryan would be better off getting his girlfriend to wrestle. I’d put Joey and Hailey on the same level in the ring by the way, quite frankly.” (Way to shit on the worker buddy.)

Guy: “It deserves a certain amount of respect Rivera, but not too much, because he’s still involved with that strumpet Hailey.” (STRUMPET?)

Guy: “I am about to have a Red Fox-esque episode Rivera, my heart is pounding.” (This was delivered like a phone sex orgasm on a 900 line. Not that I’d know anything about that. Yeah.)

Rivera:” On Messiah’s first night in CZW he won the world heavyweight championship. Guy: And what an accomplishment that was.” (He LOST dipshits. Check your facts.)

Guy: “I must…compliment…the camera man in getting the back of the fan’s head. Nice chair, I wish I had that at home.” (Ben Stein on Valium would sound more excited.)

Guy: “Ding dong Rivera, it’s for you, answer the door. Who’s calling? Trouble!”

Guy: “It’s like Biggie and Tupac. Both men are currently dead.” (This guy must invest in Alcor.)

Guy:“This match is kinda like not making your car payments. How’s that for an analogy?”(Somebody scored a 200 on their SATs.)

 

I was a play-by-play announcer for a few months for a backwoods E-level indy promotion in New Hampshire, and I was admittedly really bad. But I never said anything even close to the stupid shit these guys said. These guys made ROH’s “Ray Murrow and Chris Levy” look like Gordon Solie and Jim Ross.

 

Ouch, Hope you give him a chance this time and keep in mind the commentary isn't meant to be serious.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

I've always been baffled by how this goes down.  One person posts a review, and asks for feedback. Someone gives feedback, and disagrees with part of it.  Then the person who gave said opinion in the first place and those who agree all jump in and say, "It's only an opinion everyone has their own!!!"  Exactly, and that's why Tim has the opinion that you overrated it.  Why do only columnists get an opinion?  Can't readers disagree?  Or is that being snobby?

I see your point dude.

 

But with Tim, it's not so much *what* he says as *how* he says it. It's okay to say, "well I disagree with you for liking this match and here's why." But Tim has always been "you're crazy/an idiot for thinking that" and tends to treat his opinion as the *only* right opinion. And it's usually a one-sentence flippant remark with no backup. I know he can back it up if he wants to, but for whatever reason he usually doesn't.

 

If he was, you know, actually polite once in awhile and didn't take perceptions of "credibility" and "objectivity" so seriously we'd be a lot more civilized toward each other.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

Oh, I just caught PD's post.

 

Haha, yeah I was a little rough on them, but you're right in that I didn't put it in the proper context. When I rip somebody that bad, it's usually to get a laugh.

 

Sometimes I go too far though, according to their press secretary, I made El Generico from the Internet Wrestling Syndicate cry.

[Guest OSIcon]

Quick comment on the subject of star ratings - -

 

If the star ratings you give are soley how much enjoyed the match, what good does that do me? Just because you really enjoyed a match when you sat down to review it doesn't mean I will get the same out of it. Reviews are supposed to help people decide to buy a show or not.

 

I can make that decision based on whether the matches were "good" or "bad". I can't make that decision on weather you "enjoyed" watching them or not.

[Guest Rob Naylor]

Great review. I enjoyed it and it gave me a new look at the show.

It is funny that B-Boy vs. Rave match has different long time fans who are usually in agreement ARGUING like mad. I honestly wouldn't give it **3/4. It really just couldn't keep my attention. That is a flaw that I've heard several state on the match. I WANT to like Rave badly, but he just seems way to offensively deviod. Less is more at times (most times actually), but I just think that Rave is trying to have Brad Armstrong style matches, but lacking Brad's fire and intensity. Again, just my opinion. Glad you enjoyed it. I really didn't think much of the match, basic story matches are great, but usually MADE by intensity and I just never capture Rave's intensity in his matches. But TRUST me, Jay, others have also argued with me of how good/shitty that match was...so I guess it is subjective.

Also, the 3 way was ok, but gotta disagree on that as well. Berk's matches all seem to have one thing in common...They have no flow. This one had similar tendencies IMO. And I'm kinda a mark for strikes or even ADEQUATE punches or forearms...and this match Reckless looked worse than some backyarders with his forearms..you could see people in the audience laughing. Just brutally bad and nearly killed the whole match for me. Of course, you might not be such a stickler for that and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Aside from some differing viewpoints, great review, enjoyed reading it.

 

Rob Naylor (after hearing reports of how amazing the IWA invasion was online, was BIGTIME dissappointed once he got the show and watched it..moral..don't allow hype to let you formulate opinion till you see something for yourself.)

[Guest TripleXRated]

Double post, my apologies

[Guest TripleXRated]

I agree with your assessment of GQ, he's a better talent than Chris Cash

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

That's EXACTLY the type of feedback I'm looking for Rob, thank you. B-Boy/Rave is something I can go back and forth with you on forever and we'd both hold our opinions, so I'll agree to disagree with you on that. I see your point that matches like that are made by the intensity...I saw definitely saw it from B-Boy's end, and Rave...Rave is just one of those guys whose natural facial expression and body language doesn't change for the most part. I've talked to him in person about a subject I know he was upset about, but you couldn't tell from his looking at him at all. So I don't hold that against him when I review his matches- you've probably seen Rave vs. Hero from TPI last year or Rave/Mamaluke from Wildside though...THAT'S the most intense I've ever seen Jimmy, and those matches were off the charts as a result.

 

As far as the three-way, I DID in fact catch that Reckless Youth, other than having a sweet lariat, has got some of the worst Lance Storm-esque strikes ever. But he's so incredibly crisp and well-rounded at everything else that I don't take that flaw too much into consideration either. It wasn't so much Carter that made the match as it was Mamaluke, who has impressed me more than any other wrestler on the indys these past few months.

 

I'm frankly surprised no one's called me on the ridiculous over-rating on the Messiah match- I suffer from Scott Keith/Benoit syndrome when it comes to me overrating his matches. In retrospect it's probably like ***1/4 on the grudge/blood match scale.

 

As far as how my star ratings are reflected, I always consider "enjoyment" over pure quality. To clarify my def. of "enjoyment"- the purpose of wrestling has always been to get the fan involved emotionally in the match, and if it accomplishes that goal, its a success. If the match can get a person emotionally involved in it, *without* outside factors like storyline, personal favoritism, etc.- just two guys wrestling, it's an even bigger success.

 

To get back to the Rock/Hogan example- yeah, it's a very awkward, albeit well-structured match from a pure workrate standpoint. But it told a fantastic, simple story that got me emotionally involved. THAT'S a great match.

 

On the other side of the coin, Chad Collyer and Matt Stryker exchanging fancy holds and not giving me any reason to give a shit, would get a very low rating from me.

 

My reviews aren't really geared to the smarkish workrate freaks, they're geared to the newbie fan who's used to WWE/TNA and wants to give an independent alternative a shot.

 

I hope that clears that question up. If not, well, it's late, and I'll give a more detailed explanation at the beginning of the next review.

Edited November 13, 2003 by DuskTillDawn

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Quick comment on the subject of star ratings - -

 

If the star ratings you give are soley how much enjoyed the match, what good does that do me? Just because you really enjoyed a match when you sat down to review it doesn't mean I will get the same out of it. Reviews are supposed to help people decide to buy a show or not.

 

I can make that decision based on whether the matches were "good" or "bad". I can't make that decision on weather you "enjoyed" watching them or not.

But just as a quick rebuttal on the star ratings--

 

I totally understand what you are saying about why should buy something that someone else simply enjoyed. Put it this way to make it easier. If you read someone's star ratings you should find somebody that has an opinion close to yours. Then, when curious about buying a tape or DVD read THAT person's review and go with it.

 

At least that is what I do.