Wrestlers

[Highland 0]

I was wondering, especially with the IRC, if we judge today's wrestlers, etc. by a more difficult standard than those from the past. 99% of the time, any newcomer we see we quite frankly shit on, and I don't see how these workers are any better or worse than "way back when" but I also don't recall them being judged as critically as we do today?

Thoughts?

[Guest drdrainoscott]

It is pretty obvious that as a whole, everyone's perception of wrestling has changed since the internet has boomed. In regards to your point, I know that at least for me I loved whenever there was a debut of a new wrestler. Back in the day, a new wrestler was given weeks of buildup and were portrayed as something special. And as we saw with Rey Mysterio, when the debuting wrestlers are given buildup, they are usually very over. But in 1994, if Nathan Jones and Matt Morgan debuted as Owen Hart's hentchmen against Bret (just as they did with Brock) they would be monster heels. No doubt about it. Today, though, with the internet, we know just how horrible these two hosses are. I bet, though I am not certain, that any mark right now thinks that those two guys are monsters and don't think that they are as worthless as we do. It is just another example of how the internet skews everyone's opinions.

[Steviekick 0]

Any of us internet fans are too cynical when it comes to the quality of the product because we know too much. On the other hand, we are much more appreciative to the better wrestlers/segments because of this. We are the gourmets of the wrestling buffet.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

It is pretty obvious that as a whole, everyone's perception of wrestling has changed since the internet has boomed. In regards to your point, I know that at least for me I loved whenever there was a debut of a new wrestler. Back in the day, a new wrestler was given weeks of buildup and were portrayed as something special. And as we saw with Rey Mysterio, when the debuting wrestlers are given buildup, they are usually very over. But in 1994, if Nathan Jones and Matt Morgan debuted as Owen Hart's hentchmen against Bret (just as they did with Brock) they would be monster heels. No doubt about it. Today, though, with the internet, we know just how horrible these two hosses are. I bet, though I am not certain, that any mark right now thinks that those two guys are monsters and don't think that they are as worthless as we do. It is just another example of how the internet skews everyone's opinions.

Ditto.

 

 

I remember being a mark for Jean Pierre Lafitte for some reason. He was a good wrestler, but COME ON?! AN EVIL PIRATE?! OY!

[Highland 0]

I'd have to agree, we definately are more critical of poor workers, but more appreciative of those that are actually good. But as drdrainoscott said, if Nathan Jones had debuted in 94 or sometime before the IRC would we have been nearly as critical of him then as today. I have my doubts.

[PLAGIARISM! 0]

Absolutely, A-Train would have been over huge as a power heel back in the day, and they could easily turn Nathan Jones into a monster to headline against Hogan, and people would buy it. I think blaming the internet specifically is a bit half assed, it's a factor but not solely responsible for the death of kayfabe.

[AndrewTS 0]

Nathan Jones is so unskilled and clumsy he'd be worthless in any era. The guy can't even cut a decent promo, sounding like an utter moron when he tries.

 

Don't kid yourself.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

Nathan Jones is so unskilled and clumsy he'd be worthless in any era. The guy can't even cut a decent promo, sounding like an utter moron when he tries.

 

Don't kid yourself.

Lets look at these "monsters" who were super over back in the day...

 

Earthquake, Kamala, El Gigante, Andre the Giant, The Road Warriors, King Kong Bundy, Ultimate Warrior, Big Boss Man (circa 1989)...

 

I mean the list goes on. Nathan Jones certainly would have been over as a monster. He is no worse then El Gigante and he was a huge fan favorite in 1990/1991. Andre the Giant was a terrible, terrible worker, but yet he was one of the most over wrestlers of all time. The Road Warriors couldn't work a lick in the beginning, but they became the most over tag team of all time. The internet would have eaten up any of these guys, and in the case of El Gigante, Warrior, and Bundy, they have retroactivly began to hate them. Wrestling was a different entity ten years ago before RSPW came around and there is no denying it.

[AndrewTS 0]

El Gigante was super-over? I honestly can't say for sure since I only saw him in Chamber of Horrors, but I know that Giant Gonzales didn't exactly work out well.

 

Jones is about that level of talent. Also, unlike all of those other guys, Jones looks like a goofball and is REALLY clumsly, getting caught in the ropes, slipping from even attempting moves, and to this day can only seem to do a bodyslam without botching it. If Andre fell on his ass constantly, he wouldn't have likely been as over.

 

Andre was able to use his huge bulk to his advantage, was believable, and when he was younger he was a lot better.

 

Road Warriors/the Warrior wrestled mainly squashes, in even in those squashes showed more basic competence, human balance, and diversity of moves than Jones.

 

They even tried to use Jones as a squash machine, such as the Demott match and the dark matches he started wrestling with. Fans were completely apathetic rather than cheering for this massive engine of destruction, at least for the ones I know of.

 

For a more modern example, Big Show is a much, much better worker than Jones even though he's still not that good, and he gets by fine. Jones can't get by today because Jones is just that bad.

[CanadianChris 0]

El Gigante was never over. Any heat he got was residual from teaming with Sting and the Dudes With Attitudes. They released him pretty quickly after that angle ended, and then he went to the WWF as Giant Gonzalez and things actually got worse.

 

As for Andre, it didn't matter how good or bad he was, he just connected with crowds in a way that almost nobody before or since has. He literally sold out the world, wherever he went, because he was a one-of-a-kind attraction and was booked as such. And yes, he was much better in the 70s than he was in the 80s.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

Regarding El Gigante, I would argue that he was over on his own merits. I mean, the guy was a legit 7'7", or at least close to that, and while he could do shit in the ring, anybody that big is going to be over, especially in the time of the "Little Stingers". If you want proof of this, look back six years or so ago at George Muresan (sp?). He was the 7'7" center for the Washington Bullets, and while he pretty much stunk on the court, he got a ton of publicity due to his height. He was in snickers commercials, a movie with Billy Crystal, and even an Eminem video. It may not be PC, but in today's world, people that look different are going to get attention, and that is what happened with El Gigante. Giant Gonzalez was complete crap, on the other hand, based on his gimmick, but I would even argue that he was pretty menacing for what he was. Maybe he wasn't over, but he wasn't getting X-Pac heat.

 

Regarding Andre, I stated that he was one of the most over wrestlers in history. His work, however, much like El Gigante, stunk. Road Warriors and Ultimate Warrior stunk too. However the point that I was trying to make before is that if a team came out on Raw Monday night, dressed in face paint and did nothing but stand in the ring and punch and clothesline Christian and Jericho for three minutes before pinning them, the internet would be going apeshit. And that is exactly what happened back in 1983. How about if Brock was facing a mystery opponent at the next PPV, and out came a man in face painted who body slammed and clotheslined Brock and then won the title? Again, we would go crazy.

 

I am not arguing whether or not people were over or whether they were good workers. All I was saying is that things that people thought were exceptable ten years ago would in no way work today. And, likewise, things that don't work today, most likely would have worked ten years ago, as I said with Nathan Jones.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

It's not only that we, as internet fans, have been jaded from years of exposure to both the 'net and the industry, but also because the sport itself has evolved. If you look back at the legitimate athletes of yesteryear, and then compare them to the modern athletes, do you really think they'd stand a chance?

 

Babe Ruth's Yankees against the modern-day Red Sox. Bobby Orr's Bruins against any team that ever had Ray Borque. They worked different styles of the same sport, much like wrestlers today work a faster, more hard-hitting style than those of yesteryear.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

It's not only that we, as internet fans, have been jaded from years of exposure to both the 'net and the industry, but also because the sport itself has evolved. If you look back at the legitimate athletes of yesteryear, and then compare them to the modern athletes, do you really think they'd stand a chance?

 

Babe Ruth's Yankees against the modern-day Red Sox. Bobby Orr's Bruins against any team that ever had Ray Borque. They worked different styles of the same sport, much like wrestlers today work a faster, more hard-hitting style than those of yesteryear.

it looks like Corey hit the nail on the head. Good post.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Wait...I did good...outside of the music folder?

 

**sees Satan playing ice hockey**

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I think an apt comparison for Nathan Jones would be Zeus. The thing is, even though the Hogan/Zeus matches sucked, they drew money.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

I think an apt comparison for Nathan Jones would be Zeus. The thing is, even though the Hogan/Zeus matches sucked, they drew money.

That would be a perfect example, but didn't that feud bomb? I'm not completly sure, but I know that the movie bombed, and the PPV with Hogan & Beefcake vs. Macho & Zeus and No Holds Barred bombed.

[CanadianChris 0]

However the point that I was trying to make before is that if a team came out on Raw Monday night, dressed in face paint and did nothing but stand in the ring and punch and clothesline Christian and Jericho for three minutes before pinning them, the internet would be going apeshit. And that is exactly what happened back in 1983. How about if Brock was facing a mystery opponent at the next PPV, and out came a man in face painted who body slammed and clotheslined Brock and then won the title? Again, we would go crazy.

Random, unknown guys? Sure. But the Road Warriors would be over with the Net crowd on the strength of their promos, just like the Rock is today. And the Warrior/HTM situation would be incredibly hard to duplicate, just because no one could make you care enough about them that you'd give anything to see them get beat, like Honky Tonk Man did back in 1988. It wasn't so much that the Warrior was coming out to win the title, it was that, after EIGHTEEN MONTHS of cheating and ducking, HTM was FINALLY getting what he deserved...a good old-fashioned ass-whipping.

 

I submit that charismatic hosses WOULD get over with the smarks today. The problem? There aren't any. Except Big Show, and that's mainly for comedy. Remember, Big Show's run after WM2K was widely praised, even though his work hadn't gotten any better.

[nl5xsk1 0]

A perfect example of a guy that was mad over back in the day but would be shit on if he appeared now would be Nikita Koloff. The guy was a multiple time TT champ, had a huge run as the US champ (best-of-7 series w/ Magnum TA was majorly over) and had an extended run as a major threat to Flair's belt. But the guy could barely do a move beyond punch/kick/clothesline (oops, I mean Russian Sickle).