HBK/HHH at SS '02

[godthedog 0]

I'm simply stating that people wish to nitpick about the poor selling of the WWE --- but have a REAL hard time handling ANYBODY pointing out that their sacred cows are equally guilty of these "sins".

-=Mike

 

i've seen puro freaks go on all the time about the rampant no-selling post-97. if you can spot some big no-selling issues in the 96-or-before stuff between misawa and kawada, please point them out.

[Guest wildpegasus]

If HBK's back wasn't that bad, why was he put out of action for months (IN A WHEELCHAIR) after a couple shots to the back post-match?

 

Nuff said.

Couple of shots with a sledgehammer!

 

And about the wheelchair, well you saw him just dance out of it and go on to win the world title at SS.

So? Triple H used weapons in the match and Shawn no-selled that.

Er.....a sledgehammer is a little bit different than a chair - which wrestlers can get hit with, but get up a minute later (OMG! NON-EXISTANT SELLING!!) - or a garbage can lid.

 

Ask your friend to hit you with a chair in the back. Then try a garbage lid. Then try a sledgehammer. See which one hurts you the most.

HHH used a chair several times (DIRECTLY ON THE BACK), plus backbreakers, garbage cans, and he did use the ladder. Then HBK NO-SELLS IT ALL. Then post-match, HHH kills him with two shots. Explain to me how two sledgehammer shots is worse than 20 minutes of work on the back with weapons.

I've worked with a sledgehammer before. The sledgehammer may be the most unrealistic thing in the WWE because the damage it can do is lethal. Seriously, there should be a whole bunch of the WWE roster never wrestling again right now. The two sledgehammer shots would be worse than HHH's previous back work.

[Guest Choken One]

I have no desire to read the 4 pages of likely HHHATERATION so I will just say this...

 

This match for all it's weaknesses (The selling and garbagy nature) was still hella fun to watch.

 

I can't think of the last match since this one that HHH was even slightly interesting to watch outside of the Flair Raw Match.

 

Isn't it funny though...

 

Shawn...The supposed cripple has since this match continued to a normal rotation as a performer and continues to put on good performences dispite everyone's convicted beliefs he was done for...and HHH is the walking banged up cripple who can't do anything good anymore.

[Guest ManKinnd]

I don't think you can say "wrestling is wrestling." Look at movies, music, anything. When you're watching a different type of movie, you look for different things. Take a look at AFI's top 100 movie list, a well respected set of movies, and see the different movies on there. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Rocky, but then also Casablanca, Gone with the Wind, and It's a Wonderful Life. Very different movies that I will guarantee did not attempt to do the same thing in production. But they're still all great. They were looked at with different expectancies.

[Guest Ray]

Isn't it funny when WWE fans go on an anti-puroresu rant when asked to defend WWE?

 

I always find that funny.

 

And if you think puroresu fans never complain about no-selling in puro matches, you should really talk with some more puro fans, or stop talking with marky puro fans who think head dropping is "cool."

 

I, for one, will automatically bring up no-selling whenever someone pimps Kobashi vs Williams 8/93.

[Guest Ray]

I don't think you can say "wrestling is wrestling." Look at movies, music, anything. When you're watching a different type of movie, you look for different things. Take a look at AFI's top 100 movie list, a well respected set of movies, and see the different movies on there. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Rocky, but then also Casablanca, Gone with the Wind, and It's a Wonderful Life. Very different movies that I will guarantee did not attempt to do the same thing in production. But they're still all great. They were looked at with different expectancies.

Exluding comedy matches, I think wrestling is quite comperable to serious dramatic films. If serious dramatic films has severe gaps in plot/logic, then they are not considered good.

 

If I'm watching a film and see something which makes absolutely no sense, I'm obviously going to lower my rating.

 

Just like that film, if I see something in a wrestling match which makes no sense (such as a wrestler whose back was *DESTROYED* nipping-up and flying around), I'm obviously going to lower my rating.

[AndrewTS 0]

I have no desire to read the 4 pages of likely HHHATERATION so I will just say this...

 

This match for all it's weaknesses (The selling and garbagy nature) was still hella fun to watch.

 

I can't think of the last match since this one that HHH was even slightly interesting to watch outside of the Flair Raw Match.

 

Isn't it funny though...

 

Shawn...The supposed cripple has since this match continued to a normal rotation as a performer and continues to put on good performences dispite everyone's convicted beliefs he was done for...and HHH is the walking banged up cripple who can't do anything good anymore.

Not really much/any HHHateration, but HBK criticism.

 

I think it gets a bit of extra credit because we had low expectations going in. We thought HBK was coming back for one last match, and didn't have much more in him. Hell, he seemed to not have much in the tank up until then (botched cross body, super-safe Pedigree).

 

However, it seems that, love 'em or hate 'em, Trips and Shawn worked us all. Damn them!

 

Feel free to give the bashing to the Armageddon match, though...

[Guest Choken One]

I kinda liked the 3 Stages Match for the first two falls but the last fall just left me dry and if they just had a straight up brawl It would have worked a little better...

 

But just a quick question, Politics aside and questionable booking...What has been best about Shawn's revival?

.

[chaosrage 0]

Between the thread about HHH/Rock and now this one, I'm thinking I should do a retrospective on a recent match every so often just to see how it's held up.

 

Suggestions?

HBK/Foley

 

So we could have an argument about that next week

[chaosrage 0]

Well _at_the_time_ *HBK* said he'd be there for "one or two" matches (even on WWE.com).  How come he's wrestling on every Raw now?  Money?  Glory?  I dunno.  What does it have to do with *that* match?

Uh, if you read the posts, you'd already know the answer.

 

For *that* match we were supposed to believe that the "retired-from-a-back-injury" Shawn Michaels. Which is why people were gasping at the moves done to Shawns back. See, people were believing it. Then all-of-a-sudden it's not true, everything you saw was a lie, and HBK is really OKEYDOKIE! All that stuff you watched - worthless.

 

Then *everybody* who sells something and goes on to win the match is worthless. You need to understand that what a match is going for in the beginning doesn't have to always be the same thing it's going for in the end. Shawn went into the match forced into the fight, thinking it was his last match. How could he have known how bad his back was or what he could put it through until he was actually wrestling? The emotion comes from the second half when you see him feeding off the crowd (yes, crowd reaction matters) and becoming old HBK like he had never retired. Selling the back as if he was dying for the entire time would have ONLY WORKED IF IT WAS HIS LAST MATCH. The story isn't "oh fuck hbk is a cripple", the story is "HBK is back".

 

Never said entertaining the fans wasn't important. Just said that the match wasn't good. Again, being entertaining and being good aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

That's not what he said. It wasn't good because it was entertaining. It's the other way around. It was entertaining because of the psychology you missed and just about everybody else seemed to catch.

[chaosrage 0]

I don't think you can say "wrestling is wrestling." Look at movies, music, anything. When you're watching a different type of movie, you look for different things. Take a look at AFI's top 100 movie list, a well respected set of movies, and see the different movies on there. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Rocky, but then also Casablanca, Gone with the Wind, and It's a Wonderful Life. Very different movies that I will guarantee did not attempt to do the same thing in production. But they're still all great. They were looked at with different expectancies.

Exluding comedy matches, I think wrestling is quite comperable to serious dramatic films.

Because wrestling matches all try to be serious dramas....

[Guest Ray]

Because wrestling matches all try to be serious dramas....

Excluding comedy matches, yes.

 

What is Austin-Rock Wrestlemania 17 trying to be? Austin-Hart Wrestlemania 13? Tsuruta-Misawa 6/8/90? Misawa-Kawada 6/3/94? Liger-Samurai TOSJ 92? Vader-Sting Suprebrawl 93? Angle-Benoit Royal Rumble 03? Austin-Benoit 5/31/01?

 

What are all these great matches doing?

 

They're telling serious, dramatic stories.

[Guest Silly Douchebag]

I'd like to make a few new points:

 

1. HBK's gimmick has always been that he is the most RESILIENT superstar in WWF history. What you call no-selling, I call resilience.

 

2. People of average builds have been able to lift cars off of an adrenaline rush. Are you telling me that Shawn Michaels - a highly-trained athlete who has been making a living off of getting physically punished by much larger men for 13 years - isn't capable of doing a kip-up off of an adrenaline rush? Is that SO illogical?

 

And now my final and strongest point:

 

3. When Shawn Michaels wrestled Steve Austin at WrestleMania XIV, his lower back pain was very, very legitimate. Did that stop him from kipping up? No. Did that stop him from hitting all of his usual signature spots? No. So how can you accuse him of selling poorly at SummerSlam 2002, when he "sold" exactly the same (maybe even less) when his back was TRULY in pain? I would love to hear the puro pricks explain this one. In my opinion, if HBK can kip up when his crippling lower back pain is a shoot, then he sure as hell can kip up when it's just a work. Shoddy selling? Nope. Michaels is known for being able to block out the pain. End of story.

[lomasmoney 0]

Once again, I must point out that selling isn't what makes or breaks the match. I dont care if guys are sitting out there doing burning hammes and tiger driver 91's for no reason but if the match is entertaining its entertaining. The average wrestling fan (mark) doesn't pay 40 dollars to see a technical masterpiece channeling the spirit of lou thesz. They go to see entertaining matches, to spout out robotic catch phrases, and to get scammed into thinking they might see tits. It's just that alot of the people here like to think that they are so superior to the average fan because they know all this inside info, and they fail to realize that more than likely it wasn't selling and german suplexes that got them into wrestling, that it was good guys vs bad guys, and being entertained

[Guest Silly Douchebag]

But it wasn't bad selling. Look at WrestleMania XIV.

[chaosrage 0]

What are all these great matches doing?

 

They're telling serious, dramatic stories.

Thats not all wrestling matches, just all that you like.

[chaosrage 0]

3. When Shawn Michaels wrestled Steve Austin at WrestleMania XIV, his lower back pain was very, very legitimate. Did that stop him from kipping up? No. Did that stop him from hitting all of his usual signature spots? No. So how can you accuse him of selling poorly at SummerSlam 2002, when he "sold" exactly the same (maybe even less) when his back was TRULY in pain? I would love to hear the puro pricks explain this one. In my opinion, if HBK can kip up when his crippling lower back pain is a shoot, then he sure as hell can kip up when it's just a work. Shoddy selling? Nope. Michaels is known for being able to block out the pain. End of story.

Damn, I wish I had thought of that. This thread has now been owned.

 

You're my new favorite poster.

[Guest Ray]

1. HBK's gimmick has always been that he is the most RESILIENT superstar in WWF history. What you call no-selling, I call resilience.

And I call that an excuse.

 

2. People of average builds have been able to lift cars off of an adrenaline rush. Are you telling me that Shawn Michaels - a highly-trained athlete who has been making a living off of getting physically punished by much larger men for 13 years - isn't capable of doing a kip-up off of an adrenaline rush? Is that SO illogical?

The story was that Shawn RETIRED FOR FOUR YEARS because his back was so bad. He wasn't presented to us as a "highly-trained athlete" in 2002. He was presented as a man who had to retire for four years and they weren't sure if he could actually wrestle still.

 

So yeah, combined with his DEATH-LIKE SELLING ofHHH's back work earlier in the match, it's illogical.

 

3. When Shawn Michaels wrestled Steve Austin at WrestleMania XIV, his lower back pain was very, very legitimate. Did that stop him from kipping up? No. Did that stop him from hitting all of his usual signature spots? No. So how can you accuse him of selling poorly at SummerSlam 2002, when he "sold" exactly the same (maybe even less) when his back was TRULY in pain? I would love to hear the puro pricks explain this one. In my opinion, if HBK can kip up when his crippling lower back pain is a shoot, then he sure as hell can kip up when it's just a work. Shoddy selling? Nope.

First of all, lay off this "puro pricks" shit. I just LOVE when WWE poster start bashing puro whenever the WWE matches they like are criticized.

 

You want to know why the nip-up is bad? It was bad because the whole story of the match was his back. During the build to SS02, the talk was constantly about Shawn's crippled back. "He had to retire for four years it was so bad" they said. During the match, HHH *destroyed* Shawn's back. He was selling it like he was shot. So what if he did a nip-up at WM14? The back wasn't a factor in the story of WM14. Did they even mention he was actually injured? Maybe once during the match? The no-selling at SS02 was inconsistent with the story of that match. And aside from the nip-up, he didn't sell anything after that. In WM14, you could tell he was in pain. In SS02, did he look like a man in pain after the nip-up? No.

 

AND the rest of the match was garbage anyway, so arguing over worked/shoot nip-ups is pointless.

 

Once again, I must point out that selling isn't what makes or breaks the match.

Selling is *very* important.

 

Thats not all wrestling matches, just all that you like

Those are called examples. Care to point out some great matches which DON'T tell serious stories?

Edited December 3, 2003 by Ray

[Guest BionicRedneck]

While Shawn's injury was very real (or was it? maybe he was playing possum) at Mania, it wasn't the main part of the story of the mania match. The main part of the SummerSlam match was the backwork. He no-sold it. Plus, the match before then was crap.

 

Surely we all agree that the 3 Stages of Hell was absolute fucking shit.

[eirejmcmahon 0]

I marked so hard for that match, one of the last things I really, really enjoyed in US pro-wrestling.

[Guest Ray]

Surely we all agree that the 3 Stages of Hell was absolute fucking shit.

I would agree...but I haven't seen it.

 

 

It's saved on my computer though, along with Kawada vs Mutoh 2/02 in the "Do I REALLY want to watch this shit?" file.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

 

Surely we all agree that the 3 Stages of Hell was absolute fucking shit.

I would agree...but I haven't seen it.

 

 

It's saved on my computer though, along with Kawada vs Mutoh 2/02 in the "Do I REALLY want to watch this shit?" file.

Delete that file. Do it NOW.

 

Unless you want to see a HHH-HBK match worse than the one they had at SummerSlam (at least they hit their spots at SS) or the worst Kawada match ever.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Now...having watched it again...and seeing how much HHH destroyed HBK's back...

 

Can someone tell me why it's ok for HBK to no sell the entire second half of the match?

WWE is proving that Shawn Michaels is obviously a cyborg......that or he just doesn't sell right.......or something.

[jester 0]

Put me in the "it was a good match but for the selling" camp. That's a big admission for me, since I hate the two pricks that were involved in the match.

 

I will say this though. Anybody here who is justifying HBK's sudden no selling better not be one of those same guys who bitch about RVD's lack of selling. All the "he fought through the pain" and "he was playing possum" talk could easily be used to defend RVD.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I will say this though. Anybody here who is justifying HBK's sudden no selling better not be one of those same guys who bitch about RVD's lack of selling. All the "he fought through the pain" and "he was playing possum" talk could easily be used to defend RVD.

 

Absolutely not. RVD is one of the worst wrestlers in the company.

[Guest Silly Douchebag]

You're no-selling my WrestleMania XIV argument, so I guess it's all equal.

[Guest Coffey]

They didn't "no sell" it. They said "it wasn't the same story being told" which is just as shitty.

[haVoc 0]

Leave HBK alone! He's been selling his suppose injuried back and working us over for years. Poor guy is probably tired of selling it!

[Guest Choken One]

While Shawn's injury was very real (or was it? maybe he was playing possum) at Mania, it wasn't the main part of the story of the mania match. The main part of the SummerSlam match was the backwork. He no-sold it. Plus, the match before then was crap.

 

Surely we all agree that the 3 Stages of Hell was absolute fucking shit.

It was a legit injury.

 

The only time he played "Possum" for a Mania was the year before..

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I'm pretty sure they mentioned HBK's back injury on TV in 1998, but they obviously didn't go as far as saying he's crippled.

 

 

And I personally think he worked his ass off more at WM XIV, and that was with a real injury. By SSlam 02, I'm pretty damn sure hes had the Ric Flair Plane Crash recovery done...unless he's suppose to be crippled from an injury years later.