UBL must have jury trial

[Firestarter 0]

I just don't have much faith that the Western world knows how to properly handle the Middle East.

That kind of thinking always makes me chuckle. Like the Arabs are so sophisticated and complex that our poor barbaric Western minds aren't properly equipped to handle them. I've got a question: if they're so sophisticated and complex, why don't they have indoor plumbing by now?

 

Seriously, the only way they're "complex" is in that stupid things make them fly into irrational, infantile rages. They're difficult to manage only in the sense that a squalling infant is difficult to manage. You can't reason with it. You can't explain to it why it's wrong to want to kill people for not giving it ice cream. You just slap it.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Were damned if we do and damned if we don't really. I mean you can't talk to these terrorists, it's not like the IRA, who had a political ideology and motivations, you can talk to people like that. This is all based on religon, which is the main problem, how do you stop someone who thinks he is doing Gods will and will be richly rewarded in Heaven.

 

Lets face it, Religon in the Western world is somewhat looked down upon as being somewhat irrelevant to the modern world. In the Middle East however, its still a very important piece of peoples lives, in fact for some, it may be all they have. How to you try and convince someone like that that what they are doing is wrong? And lets not use the old " kill 'em all" answer, this isn't an army, all it takes is one person with a bomb to kill many.

 

I think that this is a war we can't win and we'll never be truly safe again.

[Zorin Industries 0]

That kind of thinking always makes me chuckle. Like the Arabs are so sophisticated and complex that our poor barbaric Western minds aren't properly equipped to handle them. I've got a question: if they're so sophisticated and complex, why don't they have indoor plumbing by now?

 

Seriously, the only way they're "complex" is in that stupid things make them fly into irrational, infantile rages. They're difficult to manage only in the sense that a squalling infant is difficult to manage. You can't reason with it. You can't explain to it why it's wrong to want to kill people for not giving it ice cream. You just slap it.

One question, do you mean the terroists or the people and religon as a whole?

[BX 0]

From reading Marney's comments, I get the feeling that she wants the Muslim population reduced to a second class people. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

 

BTW, I'm enjoying this thread now. Not often you see actual discussion.

[Firestarter 0]

One question, do you mean the terroists or the people and religon as a whole?

Obviously, the terrorists and the extremists. It's possible to practice Islam to a degree and be a decent person, but you can't follow Islam absolutely faithfully and be a decent person. It's not possible. You can't follow every Christian edict absolutely faithfully either and be a good person. There's tons of shit in every religion, and "the people" you refer to need to recognise it in theirs, as we've recognised it in ours, and cast it out. Just like us. Until they do that, until they're willing to condemn sections of the Koran as as immoral and depraved as sections of the Bible, they're going to remain extremists and they may well become terrorists.

[Firestarter 0]

From reading Marney's comments, I get the feeling that she wants the Muslim population reduced to a second class people. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Why should I bother? You made up your mind about what I was saying long before you wrote your post, or even before you read my posts. As for wanting the Moslems "reduced" to a second class people, that's a laugh. It'd be a step up. They're barely a third class people right now. And in any case everything I wrote had the express intention of forcing Moslems in general to become more like us in certain respects (acknowledging that women are human would be nice) and less like the terrorists. To any rational person, that should make it obvious that I want to raise them up.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Obviously, the terrorists and the extremists. It's possible to practice Islam to a degree and be a decent person, but you can't follow Islam absolutely faithfully and be a decent person. It's not possible. You can't follow every Christian edict absolutely faithfully either and be a good person. There's tons of shit in every religion, and "the people" you refer to need to recognise it in theirs, as we've recognised it in ours, and cast it out. Just like us. Until they do that, until they're willing to condemn sections of the Koran as as immoral and depraved as sections of the Bible, they're going to remain extremists and they may well become terrorists.

Yes, I totally agree with you on that, Islam is still stuck in the Middle Ages in many ways.

 

But how do you get that message across without it seeming like Western Imperliaism, forcing the Arabs to change there ways. Does Islam need to change from within or does it need help from without and would they accept that?

[EricMM 0]

I don't think it could come from within, or else it would have. It has not. I think that clearly, America needs to do something, or the status quo will be maintained.

 

When you 1) punish people for doing bad things and 2) expose people to outside, less-stupid influences, they'll learn. Maybe not this generation, but maybe the next one. And not EVERYONE, but enough.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I don't think it could come from within, or else it would have. It has not. I think that clearly, America needs to do something, or the status quo will be maintained.

 

When you 1) punish people for doing bad things and 2) expose people to outside, less-stupid influences, they'll learn. Maybe not this generation, but maybe the next one. And not EVERYONE, but enough.

What i'm getting at here is if the U.S. tries to change the culture of the Middle East, it could very easily turn into Christian West vs. Muslim East. This is the side of things that needs to be handled the most carefully, one major slip up here and West/East relations would be thrust back years and rebuilding them would take a hell of a long time.

[Firestarter 0]

Yes, I totally agree with you on that, Islam is still stuck in the Middle Ages in many ways.

 

But how do you get that message across without it seeming like Western Imperliaism, forcing the Arabs to change there ways. Does Islam need to change from within or does it need help from without and would they accept that?

See, this is where we have our difference. I fundamentally do not care about Arab opinion. A lot of them hate us. So what? Honestly, so fucking what? The notion that we should mollycoddle them and pretend we give a shit about their culture not only holds about as much water with me as a sieve, I find it downright offensive. Stop bombing them during Ramadan? Excuse me, are you out of your fucking mind? Rename Operation Infinite Justice to Enduring Freedom just because Moslems think "infinite justice" only comes from their god? Well la de fucking da, we're not Moslems but our military is the clenched right fist of God Almighty, so try to deal with it while we're killing you, if you have such a big problem with it you can take it up with Allah in a couple of seconds. We'll call in another airstrike just for you. The President getting criticised because he called this a "crusade" and that could seem historically insensitive? Please give me a fucking break, okay? The President called it by the numbers. This is a crusade. It's a crusade to take back your lives and your God-given freedom from the evil people you've allowed to enslave you and brainwash you because your lives were miserable and you had no power and no food and no education and no hope and you needed someone to hate. That's what this crusade is about: the eradication of evil, and there is no truer definition, nor a better name. You're crying and fighting because freedom is frightening, because light is hard to bear when you've been crouching in darkness for so long. But we don't care. We don't need your thanks and we don't need your gratitude; we don't even need your approval. We're going to drag you out of the prison you built for yourselves and then we're going to blow it up so you can never go back, and you'll have to stand on your own two feet and live like human beings instead of rabid animals, and someday, when you come to your senses, you or your children will get down on your knees and thank us for it.

[Zorin Industries 0]

We're going to drag you out of the prison you built for yourselves and then we're going to blow it up so you can never go back, and you'll have to stand on your own two feet and live like human beings instead of rabid animals, and someday, when you come to your senses, you or your children will get down on your knees and thank us for it.

How do you get to this point from where we are now though? The signs I see are of an increase of relgious tension that hasn't been seen in years. At least with political tensions you at least have a rational group to have dialog with. How to you talk to a religon that means "submission"? How do you reason with people who he think it is Gods will to live the way they do? They hold Allah above the U.S. HOW do you convince them that the ways they have held for years have to be changed.

 

I don't mean eventually, how do you convince them RIGHT NOW, that the U.S. has the right way?

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I've got a question: if they're so sophisticated and complex, why don't they have indoor plumbing by now?

Iraq has had indoor plumbing for a while now. As do other countries. The problem is class, none of this stuff gets to the majority.

 

If you were born in the right family, you could have a house in Saudi Arabia that's the size of my local high school. If you aren't, well, prepare to live poorly.

 

PS: I liked Enduring Freedom more than Infinite Justice anyway. The older name made it sound like we were just going to go out and kill because we were angry. The second name at least had that "we will move on but always remember" style rhetoric to it.

[Firestarter 0]

how do you convince them RIGHT NOW, that the U.S. has the right way?

I've answered this question countless times already. You're just asking it again and again and again.

 

1. Keep doing what we're doing. Make it clear that if any state anywhere in the world funds terrorism or encourages extremism they'd better start looking skyward and building bunkers, for all the good it'll do them, because they'll be next on our list.

 

2. Export liberty, justice, truth, democracy, and the American way aggressively and unapologetically. We don't give a shit about your evil cultures or your savage religions. You're going to be dragged into the 21st century whether you like it or not. You can either live peacefully and morally and adopt civilised norms, or you can be shot like the animal you are. Choose.

 

3. Refuse to cater to Moslem victimhood. You've failed of your own accord and because of your own weakness, barbarity, and depravity. The fact that you live in filthy hovels is not a result of the fact that we live in skyscrapers with central heating and indoor plumbing. If you're going to live in the real world, rather than in your fantasies of Saladin and global conquest, you have to drag yourselves up by your own bootstraps and work. We owe you nothing but we still give you more than you deserve. You've had any number of chances. Stop snivelling, stop complaining, be grateful, stand up by yourselves, and act like men for once in your miserable lives.

 

Read this article by Victor Davis Hanson for more analysis.

[Zorin Industries 0]

how do you convince them RIGHT NOW, that the U.S. has the right way?

I've answered this question countless times already. You're just asking it again and again and again.

 

1. Keep doing what we're doing. Make it clear that if any state anywhere in the world funds terrorism or encourages extremism they'd better start looking skyward and building bunkers, for all the good it'll do them, because they'll be next on our list.

 

2. Export liberty, justice, truth, democracy, and the American way aggressively and unapologetically. We don't give a shit about your evil cultures or your savage religions. You're going to be dragged into the 21st century whether you like it or not. You can either live peacefully and morally and adopt civilised norms, or you can be shot like the animal you are. Choose.

 

3. Refuse to cater to Moslem victimhood. You've failed of your own accord and because of your own weakness, barbarity, and depravity. The fact that you live in filthy hovels is not a result of the fact that we live in skyscrapers with central heating and indoor plumbing. If you're going to live in the real world, rather than in your fantasies of Saladin and global conquest, you have to drag yourselves up by your own bootstraps and work. We owe you nothing but we still give you more than you deserve. You've had any number of chances. Stop snivelling, stop complaining, be grateful, stand up by yourselves, and act like men for once in your miserable lives.

 

Read this article by Victor Davis Hanson for more analysis.

I see what your'e saying, and i think I see it from your'e point of view. But what I see is a fiercly independant and religous people who may not want the democracy that the U.S. is exporting. I'm not saying that they don't want freedom but they should come by it themselves.

 

Obviously the events of the few years means that sitting back and letting this happen naturally is not an option. I don't think anyone debates that something must be done, I simply feel that the course the U.S. seems to be going down now will simply end up doing more harm than good a few years down the road.

[Firestarter 0]

Up to the moment Saddam popped out of the spider-hole, the international jet set's line was that deplorable as Saddam's rule might be - gassing Kurds, feeding folks feet-first into industrial shredders, etc - it was strictly an internal matter for the Iraqi people. The minute the old boy was in US custody, the international jet set's revised position was that gassing Kurds, feeding folks into industrial shredders and so forth were crimes against the whole world and certainly not a matter for the Iraqi people. Instead, we need a (drumroll, please) United Nations-mandated international tribunal.

 

This is what the Zionist neocons would call chutzpah.

- Don't leave Saddam trial to the 'jet set' by Mark Steyn

[Jobber of the Week 0]

You're going to be dragged into the 21st century whether you like it or not. You can either live peacefully and morally and adopt civilised norms, or you can be shot like the animal you are. Choose.

Anyone who's even paid attention to the history of the region knows that doesn't work.

[Red Baron 0]

Every time Dean opens his mouth, I lose 5 IQ Points hearing what he has to say.

[Firestarter 0]

Anyone who's even paid attention to the history of the region knows that doesn't work.

How grand. Say, next time you're blithering about "the history of the region," do you mind explaining what the hell you meant when you stated that the entire Middle East has been "just sitting quietly" for the last two hundred years? (They were waiting for President Bush to be elected all that time, I suppose.)

 

I prefer doing the right thing with a clear understanding of the difficulties to the self-serving prophecies of defeat so intrinsic to your empty, easy apathy and cynicism.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Well, thanks for the misinterpretation.

 

What I was saying was that terror strikes on the US is something that's only started becoming an issue over the past few decades. Instead of immediately telling other countries how to be run, we should consider what's causing this change.