Guest Ray Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I think BOTH Shawn/Razor ladder matches are WILDLY overrated. Honestly, it baffles me when they're called ***** or MOTY's. I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. They're not bad matches...but ***** MOTY's? No chance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Askewniverse Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Why does it matter where they're from? Wrestling is wrestling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NYU 0 Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Well, one of them will probably be that terribly overrated Bret/Owen match at WrestleMania X. It was good - maybe even very good - but in no way was it a ***** classic like some claim. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Well, one of them will probably be that terribly overrated Bret/Owen match at WrestleMania X. It was good - maybe even very good - but in no way was it a ***** classic like some claim. Of course Bret/Owen isn't *****....but it's still easily better than the ladder match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Askewniverse Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Why does it matter where they're from? Just curious. I wanted to know if you thought any North American matches were better, since it's too easy to say that Lyger-Pegasus, Lyger-Sasuke, or Misawa-Kawada were all better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
godthedog 0 Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Well, one of them will probably be that terribly overrated Bret/Owen match at WrestleMania X. It was good - maybe even very good - but in no way was it a ***** classic like some claim. i have to hear the argument for this one. incidentally, i think ray should have to donate a quarter to the site every time he says the word "overrated." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Why does it matter where they're from? Just curious. I wanted to know if you thought any North American matches were better, since it's too easy to say that Lyger-Pegasus, Lyger-Sasuke, or Misawa-Kawada were all better. No problem with that. For 1994, Hart/Hart from the same card is better. They were able to have a smarter, better wrestling match with only their brains to do so. Michaels and Ramon had a big crutch to rely on...the ladder. If you took that crutch away, could they possibly achieve what Bret and Owen did? Nope. That's why the Hart's accomplishment is greater. Bret and Owen also had a more meaningful story. In AAA, there was Barr/Guerrero vs Octagon/Santo from When Worlds Collide. 1995 was a really shitty year for the WWF, so there's not much to talk about there. I'd rate Guerrero/Malenko from Hostile City Showdown over the Summerslam ladder match. i think ray should have to donate a quarter to the site every time he says the word "overrated." Dames could probably retire off that money. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted January 3, 2004 Ray is right, though. If that ladder match happened today people would be all "Bleh! It was OK". If Hart-Hart happened today people would still see it as a great match. At the time the ladder match wasn't a MOTYC, and looking back on it, it's not even close. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spaceman Spiff 0 Report post Posted January 3, 2004 Ray is right, though. If that ladder match happened today people would be all "Bleh! It was OK". If Hart-Hart happened today people would still see it as a great match. At the time the ladder match wasn't a MOTYC, and looking back on it, it's not even close. I'm not arguing 1 over the other, but of course people would say "blah" because we've had countless other ladder matches and TLC matches that have dulled our senses, filled with increasingly outrageous spots. Of course it would look pedestrian. Hart-Hart would still be considered good/great because a good, smart match holds up over time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted January 3, 2004 Ray is right, though. If that ladder match happened today people would be all "Bleh! It was OK". If Hart-Hart happened today people would still see it as a great match. At the time the ladder match wasn't a MOTYC, and looking back on it, it's not even close. Oh, really? Meltzer wrote this immediately after WMX: Shawn Michaels put on one of the greatest individual performances in the history of the business... Michaels, in one of his last shows with the company before going on what is planned to be a several month long sabbatical, put on a performance that left just about everyone in wrestling in awe in his ladder match with Razor Ramon. The match, probably the best match ever on a WWF PPV show, somehow overshadowed one of the greatest matches in WWF history between Bret Hart and Owen Hart that opened the show and a WWF title change with Bret's later regaining of the WWF title from Yokozuna in an average match in the evening's finale. The Hart-Hart match, with Owen scoring the surprise clean win to elevate him to the upper echelon, appeared when it was over to be a strong match-of-the-year candidate and was a tad better than the legendary Rick Steamboat-Randy Savage WrestleMania III match which has largely been considered the greatest match in modern WWF history because of the stronger finish and every bit as good overall work. In the ladder match review, he wrote that "Michaels took so many great bumps you couldn't begin to list them all." There are many RSPW posts either rating it ***** or calling it MOTY. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Monday Night Jericho Report post Posted January 3, 2004 Yeah, but Meltzer is an idiot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted January 3, 2004 Ray is right, though. If that ladder match happened today people would be all "Bleh! It was OK". If Hart-Hart happened today people would still see it as a great match. At the time the ladder match wasn't a MOTYC, and looking back on it, it's not even close. I'm not arguing 1 over the other, but of course people would say "blah" because we've had countless other ladder matches and TLC matches that have dulled our senses, filled with increasingly outrageous spots. Of course it would look pedestrian. Hart-Hart would still be considered good/great because a good, smart match holds up over time. Pretty much my exact point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0 Report post Posted January 3, 2004 I've seen matches from 1994-95 which absolutely blow them both away. How many of them are North American matches? Why does it matter where they're from? Just curious. I wanted to know if you thought any North American matches were better, since it's too easy to say that Lyger-Pegasus, Lyger-Sasuke, or Misawa-Kawada were all better. HBK/Razor was not even the best gimmick match of the year. Give me the Bret/Owen cage match over that anyday. Or Cactus & Payne/Nasty Boys. In 1995 I had Bret/Nash(slightly ahead of HBK/Razor 2) from SS pegged as WWF MOTY and yes I would rank both of those ahead of HBK/Razor too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just J Report post Posted January 4, 2004 Damn! I missed the beginning of this. It was **** hands down. Great match, great ending. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted January 4, 2004 Damn! I missed the beginning of this. It was **** hands down. Great match, great ending. How the hell was that a great ending? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Just J Report post Posted January 4, 2004 It was a swerve. It was good, not great, but good writing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
