A thought about Edge

[Guest Anglesault]

Didn't you spend 4 pages at WDI the month before Wrestlemania 17 complaining about how Angle facing Kane at Wrestlemania was going to forever ruin his career?

I think AS has declared Angle's career over something like 14 times. Now I can't remember all of the occurances, since AS does it like every third week or so, but I do know that winning the WCW US Title back in the InVasion period was one of them.

And if you remember, it killed his heat for three months.

[iliketurtles 0]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread yet (don't feel like going and reading everything) but I think Edge might be the one behind the attacks on Eddie, Angle, and Chavo Sr. the past month. He's back and he wants some revenge and he's going to take everyone out from behind like they did to him until he gets some evidence or something.

[Austin3164life 0]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread yet (don't feel like going and reading everything) but I think Edge might be the one behind the attacks on Eddie, Angle, and Chavo Sr. the past month. He's back and he wants some revenge and he's going to take everyone out from behind like they did to him until he gets some evidence or something.

That's what I'm hoping for. He's coming back and wants some revenge for whoever did that to him last year. It would instantly cement him in the upper-card, and it'd be an interesting way to bring him back.

[iliketurtles 0]

Here's what I'm thinking...Edge goes through everyone and lasts on Smackdown for about 2-3 months after having some big matches...so then he starts showing up on Raw because he's gone through everyone on Smackdown and he still is looking for revenge and he remembers that both brands were there that night in Montreal.

 

Eventually, this can lead up to HHH vs. Edge but they would somehow have to explain who attacked Edge...but then again they might not have too. I think the most logical explanation at this point would be Angle, but I don't think the world is really on fire for another Edge vs. Angle feud.

[Guest Loss]

Push McMahons and the stars they built up when they were successful. Well, at least, that's been the strategy for the past 2 years. Didn't really do anything productive for the company, though. Oh, you mean recently? Oops.

 

Yes, I mean recently. There are no McMahons on TV right now. Wouldn't you think this indicates that they realized there was too much McMahon crap on TV?

 

Elevated in 2000, 2001, and 2003. They're using him now because they simply have no one left.

 

Rather they're using him now because they've changed the working style, they're doing longer matches and there's more emphasis on serious feuds and classic booking and he fits that motif quite well.

 

Yes, one minute he's in the midcard the next he has won the WWE title. If they really cared about elevating him in a way that would keep him up there they wouldn't have made his road to the title 3 weeks long.

 

Bullshit. If the WWE is as hell bent on destroying Eddy and Benoit as you think, why would they even allow them to get near that level? Why do they have jobs in WWE? Why haven't they been fired? You make it seem as if Vince thinks they're disposable, and he wouldn't be putting them in those roles if he did.

 

Did they really "turn" him face? I can recall him beating up Albert and then just facing more heel opponents, but did anything really change? He's just pandering to the audience more now (which he did as a heel, but not so much). But you're acting as this is some grand realization and the company has taken great steps in implementing the epic and momentous John Cena face turn. Ok, I'm putting those words in your mouth but it was a silly statement in the first place.

 

It was not a silly statement. You're being melodramatic because you think everything should be melodramatic. They've turned him face because he's facing heels and he's being treated like a babyface by the announcers.

 

By that you mean... Eddie Guerrero?

 

Yes. I also mean Rey Misterio, whose cruiserweight title defense against Chavo was actually a focal point of a lot of the advertising building to the show. But noticing that might mean that you acknowledge that WWE is attempting to present the cruiserweight division in a way that's important, so let's just ignore that.

 

Is Goldberg a minority?

 

Actually, yes, he's Jewish. They never mention that though, so I wouldn't exactly call it an ace in their favor.

 

Let's see the matches at Mania... HHH/HBK/Benoit, Lesnar/Goldberg, Kane/Taker, Cena/Show... Eddie/Angle. And if you want to bring up NWO with Rey Mysterio being a focus, that was one of the worst hyped PPVs ever.

 

If you look at all the PPVs for the last 12 months, it has gotten better hype than all of them except Wrestlemania XIX, Bad Blood, Summerslam, Survivor Series and the Rumble. That means it's behind the Big Four and the first RAW PPV. The hype was rushed, but it was not _bad_.

 

I don't disagree with you that they are attempting to penetrate the market, I am just saying they aren't doing a good job nor are they making a great effort to do so. It's a half-hearted attempt because, simply put, they've run out of their traditional options (cept for Celebrity involvement, which surprises me they haven't done)

 

But they haven't. Were you praising Vince for making the decision not to make XX a legends show and instead focus on the talent they have? If not, you should have been. It's only fair.

 

And Stacy/Jackie are supposed to do what, to turn them away?

 

Stacy and Jackie are there for the men. You know that.

 

I never said Lesnar/Benoit Mania. I said Lesnar/Benoit at rumble. Eddie or Angle would be at Mania. And they didn't have to move Benoit to make an opening, it's not like there's a certain finite number of ME'rs you can have. They could have had Benoit/Eddie, Goldberg/Brock, Angle/HBK, HHH/Cena.

 

No, they couldn't have. That would require both Angle and Cena to switch shows, which would be even worse than the current situation based on your complaints about them not holding to the brand extension. Benoit/Eddy is not a Mania-calibre match, regardless of what you think of them as performers. I happen to think a lot, but 'Mania is about star power in the title match.

 

By storyline you mean... ?

 

I mean he still won the Rumble and he's still competing for the world title.

 

By "months" you mean "weeks", right?

 

I mean months. Angle/Eddy has been building since January.

 

*snip*

 

And there are other ways to *make sense* from a business perspective as well as offering good, sensible, storylines without having the viewer jump the grand canyon that is their plotholes and/or suspension of disbelief.

 

Yes, there are other ways. No, they are not taking the absolute best route. No, they are not going where I wanted them to go with 'Mania entirely. But that does not mean that the direction being taken is a bad one.

 

I can, very easily actually. Given that I am a wrestling fan AND a business student. It just happens to be good business to have a good product and not to insult your consumers.

 

Agreed. I haven't been insulted by WWE since before Survivor Series. The product has been good since then too.

 

Could have been done in other *better* ways. It just takes effort. If you can't see that, well then, you should work for the WWE. They could use people like you.

 

Could have been better. Absolutely. Won't argue that at all. But the direction they're taking is not bad as a result of that.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yes, I mean recently. There are no McMahons on TV right now. Wouldn't you think this indicates that they realized there was too much McMahon crap on TV?

 

Oh, so Vince wasn't on RAW last week, or the week before, or on Smackdown, or on RAW next week? Maybe you were literally saying "right now" when it came to McMahon being on TV, or maybe you were stressing the "s" in Mcmahons.. as is more than one.

 

Rather they're using him now because they've changed the working style, they're doing longer matches and there's more emphasis on serious feuds and classic booking and he fits that motif quite well.

 

Ah yes, this supposed changed working style. Tell me, is Benoit still doing the triple german? It's because they don't have anyone left. That's why Benoit was brought over. I thought that was obvious.

 

Bullshit. If the WWE is as hell bent on destroying Eddy and Benoit as you think, why would they even allow them to get near that level?

 

I don't think I ever said they were "hell bent on destroying" either of them, I said that they weren't exactly Rah Rah for Eddie and Benoit, hence their lacklustre, half-hearted pushes. But this seems to be a running theme. If I think the WWE can do better, I expect perfection. If I don't think they are using Eddie and Benoit very well, I think they are hell bent on destroying them.

 

Why do they have jobs in WWE? Why haven't they been fired?

 

Because they are enhancement talent. They make others look good. If a card doesn't have a lot of good "wrestling" on it, they'll throw Benoit and Guerrero together (Armageddon? Vengeance?) to help "fill the quota". They're a step above jobbers, but in-the-end they will never be placed in a position to carry the company because Vince doesn't think they can.

 

You make it seem as if Vince thinks they're disposable, and he wouldn't be putting them in those roles if he did.

 

I think that Vince sees them as a convenience. He's putting them in these roles not because he wants to -because if he really wanted to he would have done so before or done it now better-, but because he's used up his other options and is turning to "plan L".

 

It was not a silly statement. You're being melodramatic because you think everything should be melodramatic. They've turned him face because he's facing heels and he's being treated like a babyface by the announcers.

 

It was a silly statement. I'm not saying he isn't a face now, but you're making it seem that its an accomplishment that the WWE should be proud of. Cena was over, rather than continuing him down the heel path they went with it. Oooh they aren't complete morons, here's a fish.

 

Yes. I also mean Rey Misterio, whose cruiserweight title defense against Chavo was actually a focal point of a lot of the advertising building to the show. But noticing that might mean that you acknowledge that WWE is attempting to present the cruiserweight division in a way that's important, so let's just ignore that.

 

Let's. Because if we turned our attention towards it we may have to face things like the epic Jamie Knoble vs. Nidia match. They've never put Mysterio in a serious role and never will. But if you want to hang your hat on them doing a 3 week campaign with 2 latinos as the turn around, go ahead.

 

Actually, yes, he's Jewish. They never mention that though, so I wouldn't exactly call it an ace in their favor.

 

GOLDBERG is Jewish I wouldn't call Jews a minority, given that it's a religion. Eddie is Christian, does that make him in the majority? Either way, I wouldn't call Goldberg a visable minority as he has all the traits McMahon likes in a ME'er.

 

If you look at all the PPVs for the last 12 months, it has gotten better hype than all of them except Wrestlemania XIX, Bad Blood, Summerslam, Survivor Series and the Rumble. That means it's behind the Big Four and the first RAW PPV. The hype was rushed, but it was not _bad_.

 

Rushed _is_ bad. Makes the event seem unimportant.

 

But they haven't. Were you praising Vince for making the decision not to make XX a legends show and instead focus on the talent they have? If not, you should have been. It's only fair.

 

Actually, I was wanting them to do an homage to all the previous WM's. But I don't actually see your point here, elaborate, I'm slow

 

Stacy and Jackie are there for the men. You know that.

 

At the cost of the women, I know that. Kinda funny how the WWE is "trying to appeal to the women" while "insulting them by completely objectifying them".

 

No, they couldn't have. That would require both Angle and Cena to switch shows, which would be even worse than the current situation based on your complaints about them not holding to the brand extension.

 

They could have done an official trade, press conference and all. Check my previous posts, I am for that. There are many ways to get around that without insulting your audience. "No, they couldn't have" isn't exactly the most open-minded and creative way of dealing with things.

 

Benoit/Eddy is not a Mania-calibre match, regardless of what you think of them as performers. I happen to think a lot, but 'Mania is about star power in the title match.

 

Benoit and Eddie _now_ are not Main-calibre, but they could have been built up that way had the WWE invested the proper amount of time and effort into them. Which they haven't. Which is part of my problem. What they're doing now isn't helping Benoit and Eddie become mainstays, they aren't "main eventers". Once they lose the title they are probably going to go spend a lot of time in the mid-card and end up "failures" since they couldn't stay important.

 

I mean he still won the Rumble and he's still competing for the world title.

 

Oh, you mean they were keeping with the storyline they started at the Rumble. His RAW storyline. Is that what you mean by "intact"? The storyline that completely went against his Smackdown one?

 

I mean months. Angle/Eddy has been building since January.

 

Inwhich Eddie and Angle were still directionaless. Eddie was feuding with Chavo, which was a dead end. Angle was just wandering around the card. Only until recently were their paths set.

 

Yes, there are other ways. No, they are not taking the absolute best route. No, they are not going where I wanted them to go with 'Mania entirely. But that does not mean that the direction being taken is a bad one.

 

It hurts Benoit. It is bad.

 

Agreed. I haven't been insulted by WWE since before Survivor Series. The product has been good since then too.

 

I've been insulted plenty. Angle and Eddie being bestest friends didn't make sense. Benoit jumping to RAW didn't make sense. The "blind nidia" storyline has been horrible. Stacy and Jackies quest to be in Playboy is god awful. How about Little Johnny? What about "I still remember?". Where did they go? The product hasn't been good, the majority of the storylines (like 90%) are bad, the majority of the wrestling matches (90%) are bad.

 

Could have been better. Absolutely. Won't argue that at all. But the direction they're taking is not bad as a result of that.

 

Sure it is. If they aren't striving to reach their full potential, if they aren't recognizing the history in their storylines, making plot holes, and generally forgetting about things, if they aren't trying their hardest, then they haven't learned from the past, they don't care about the fans, and they haven't "turned around" at all. Just because they've made long-term booking up until Mania (which is the case every year), doesn't mean they are turned around. They still have fundamental problems that I don't see solved, nor do I see any indication of solving them.

[Guest Loss]

Oh, so Vince wasn't on RAW last week, or the week before, or on Smackdown, or on RAW next week? Maybe you were literally saying "right now" when it came to McMahon being on TV, or maybe you were stressing the "s" in Mcmahons.. as is more than one.

 

We're not exactly seeing Vince v Steph hyped for PPVs anymore, are we? The focus of Smackdown is off of Vince and Steph and is on Eddy Guerrero. They're not even on TV right now. Vince is showing up occasionally to make announcements and further storylines, yes. I expect that much. If I have to choose any McMahon to appear on TV, I'd pick Vince. Hell, he's still a great character, he's just overexposed. He's not in a storyline going into Wrestlemania. He's not in a 'feud'. That's a landmark improvement.

 

Ah yes, this supposed changed working style. Tell me, is Benoit still doing the triple german?

 

Yes. What does that have to do with anything? Are you telling me you haven't seen a difference in WWE matches at all in the last couple of months?

 

I will be honest and say that the working style is not where it needs to be. I'm glad they've slowed things down, but most of the guys on the roster -- the one you seem to think is so rich, which is myth, there are about 15-20 'good' workers in the company, if that -- don't have a clue about how to work a crowd, and in order for the slower style to be effective, they have to master that much.

 

It's because they don't have anyone left. That's why Benoit was brought over. I thought that was obvious.

 

No one left on this deep roster? Which is it, Rudo? Does the company have a deep roster they're not utilizing or do they have such a weak roster that they need Benoit to bail them out in the build to Wrestlemania? It's not both; it can't be. If you're arguing that they do have the talent, but it's not being used, then by proxy you are admitting that Benoit is being pushed at a strong enough level to be taken seriously when competing for the world title.

 

I don't think I ever said they were "hell bent on destroying" either of them, I said that they weren't exactly Rah Rah for Eddie and Benoit, hence their lacklustre, half-hearted pushes.

 

Do you realize that Benoit has been pushed harder in WWE than Rob Van Dam? That Eddy Guerrero has been pushed harder than Chris Jericho? Do you realize that neither of the former have gained near the crowd reaction of the latter, at their peaks? You could make arguments for Benoit and Eddy not being pushed for all these years, but as long as you continue to use the logic that past mistakes are unforgivable, WWE will never, ever, ever be able to dig themselves out of the hole they've fallen into with you because all they can do is understand that they've made mistakes, try something new by pushing new stars and move on.

 

But this seems to be a running theme. If I think the WWE can do better, I expect perfection. If I don't think they are using Eddie and Benoit very well, I think they are hell bent on destroying them.

 

Everything is not an absolute. If I had to guess, Vince sees talent in Benoit and knows he's a hard worker, although he thinks something is missing in him. That said, he still *intends* to push him hard this year. Whether or not that sees itself to fruition, I think that's the intention. Yes, I know about the road to hell. With Eddy, I think Vince genuinely likes him and sees him as less of a gamble because he is consistently over and has been gaining momentum the past few months. He thinks he's a little small to be the champ, but he's going to give it a shot.

 

One thing about Vince -- he makes some boneheaded decisions, he lets wrestlers with agendas influence him too much and he's a mark for size, but he does not consciously push anyone with the goal of burying them.

 

Because they are enhancement talent. They make others look good. If a card doesn't have a lot of good "wrestling" on it, they'll throw Benoit and Guerrero together (Armageddon? Vengeance?) to help "fill the quota". They're a step above jobbers, but in-the-end they will never be placed in a position to carry the company because Vince doesn't think they can.

 

Eddy Guerrero is in a position to carry the company RIGHT NOW. I don't think Benoit can carry the company, because his speaking skills are so weak. But if he can be made a fixture in the main event scene, a top guy, if not the top guy, the guy you go to when someone being elevated needs a great match or to work an extended storyline with a worker who needs to improve who's on his way up the ladder, Benoit is the perfect guy. If he's treated with respect in that role, and he stays above the upper midcard, he's being used properly.

 

I think that Vince sees them as a convenience. He's putting them in these roles not because he wants to -because if he really wanted to he would have done so before or done it now better-, but because he's used up his other options and is turning to "plan L".

 

He has not used up his other options at this point. One could argue that, despite their poor treatment, Jericho and Van Dam would be safer bets than Benoit and Guerrero at this point, because they're still over and the fans perceive them as stars. Instead of pushing them, he's trying with Benoit and Eddy.

 

It was a silly statement. I'm not saying he isn't a face now, but you're making it seem that its an accomplishment that the WWE should be proud of.

 

Whether or not they should be 'proud' of it is irrelevant. They turned him face when fans were cheering him. Again, Jericho was having to fight crowds to keep them booing him at various points in 2003 and was not turned face until earlier this year. Flair is pushed as a heel, despite the fans wanting to cheer him. The fact that they let the fans dictate the direction of John Cena means that they made the right decision. It's not a huge accomplishment, actually, and that's the beauty of wrestling -- it's so simple.

 

Cena was over, rather than continuing him down the heel path they went with it. Oooh they aren't complete morons, here's a fish.

 

I've seen many cases, as I mentioned above, where the fans wanted to go in one direction and they took the wrestler in another. The fact that they turned Cena face shows that they were paying attention.

 

Let's. Because if we turned our attention towards it we may have to face things like the epic Jamie Knoble vs. Nidia match. They've never put Mysterio in a serious role and never will. But if you want to hang your hat on them doing a 3 week campaign with 2 latinos as the turn around, go ahead.

 

They've been marketing them for months, not just since No Way Out. Quite the accomplishment when Eddy and Rey are considered two of the top ten stars on Smackdown based on internal marketing profiles. But they're still 'enhancement talent'? Right ...

 

GOLDBERG is Jewish  I wouldn't call Jews a minority, given that it's a religion. Eddie is Christian, does that make him in the majority? Either way, I wouldn't call Goldberg a visable minority as he has all the traits McMahon likes in a ME'er.

 

Fair enough, although being Jewish is also considered a race. Hence, when someone makes an offensive comment toward the Jewish, it's considered racist.

 

Rushed _is_ bad. Makes the event seem unimportant.

 

When should they have started hyping the PPV? WWE is not to blame for that. There were only three weeks between PPVs. They used the only chance they had. Take your complaints to Father Time, or man for inventing calendars.

 

Actually, I was wanting them to do an homage to all the previous WM's. But I don't actually see your point here, elaborate, I'm slow

 

A Wrestlemania that spends all of its time playing to the past, to wrestlers that can do them no good at this point, is not consistent with a Wrestlemania that features Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero as headliners.

 

At the cost of the women, I know that. Kinda funny how the WWE is "trying to appeal to the women" while "insulting them by completely objectifying them".

 

I agree 100% here. WWE is often very guilty of having their cake and wanting to eat it too. That doesn't mean that the JERICHO/TRISH STORYLINE is not an attempt to draw in a female audience.

 

They could have done an official trade, press conference and all. Check my previous posts, I am for that. There are many ways to get around that without insulting your audience. "No, they couldn't have" isn't exactly the most open-minded and creative way of dealing with things.

 

I'm open minded and creativity means shit in wrestling (just ask Vince Russo), and a press conference would be a nice touch. But I'm pretty sure if they actually did that, you would ask why they're doing so many jumps and reference Vince's doctrine in 2002 that jumps can only take place if a trade is done between RAW and Smackdown. Yes, they could still use your scenario and it would work and I would like it. But, please understand, that, as a fantasy booker, if WWE doesn't always take *your* route, that doesn't mean it's not the right one. There is often more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Benoit and Eddie _now_ are not Main-calibre, but they could have been built up that way had the WWE invested the proper amount of time and effort into them. Which they haven't. Which is part of my problem.

 

They haven't up until now. They are now. This is a sign of improvement. This is how wrestling works.

 

What they're doing now isn't helping Benoit and Eddie become mainstays, they aren't "main eventers". Once they lose the title they are probably going to go spend a lot of time in the mid-card and end up "failures" since they couldn't stay important.

 

I'd agree that the chances of that are high based on others who have gotten pushed at that level and fallen off, but it has not happened yet.

 

Oh, you mean they were keeping with the storyline they started at the Rumble. His RAW storyline. Is that what you mean by "intact"? The storyline that completely went against his Smackdown one?

 

It did not go against it at all. Being 'the best' and winning the world title are the exact same thing. They're synonymous. They're one and the same. There is absolutely no difference.

 

Inwhich Eddie and Angle were still directionaless. Eddie was feuding with Chavo, which was a dead end. Angle was just wandering around the card. Only until recently were their paths set.

 

My predictions are that January gets tied in to their current feud. We're due an Angle promo. If we don't get one Thursday night, I'll agree. If not, you're jumping the gun.

 

It hurts Benoit. It is bad.

 

Benoit is better off than he was six months ago. Therefore, this has helped him. Simple as that.

 

I've been insulted plenty. Angle and Eddie being bestest friends didn't make sense.

 

It's still a storyline mid-stream. I don't get the feeling that you understand that storylines don't take place in five minutes and leaving questions open to be answered is a good thing.

 

Benoit jumping to RAW didn't make sense.

 

I've made my point clear on this, just as you've made yours.

 

The "blind nidia" storyline has been horrible. Stacy and Jackies quest to be in Playboy is god awful. How about Little Johnny?

 

They are undercard storylines that get little to no TV time to develop. Little Johnny was months ago and you're still upset about it? The 'blind Nidia' and Stacy/Jackie stuff is stupid, yes, but it's not getting 30 minutes a show to conclude either. You can look at *any* period in the history of pro wrestling and there's always going to be some bad with the good.

 

What about "I still remember?". Where did they go?

 

That was pre-Survivor Series.

 

The product hasn't been good, the majority of the storylines (like 90%) are bad, the majority of the wrestling matches (90%) are bad.

 

I'd say the storylines are at about 75% good actually, if not higher. The matches? You're probably right. But the fact that they're making real efforts to change the style shows that they're at least trying to improve in that area. If I see an attempt to improve, I can let a lot slide because it's an acknowledgement that the current direction isn't working. That's the difference between you and me.

 

Sure it is. If they aren't striving to reach their full potential, if they aren't recognizing the history in their storylines, making plot holes, and generally forgetting about things, if they aren't trying their hardest, then they haven't learned from the past, they don't care about the fans, and they haven't "turned around" at all. Just because they've made long-term booking up until Mania (which is the case every year), doesn't mean they are turned around. They still have fundamental problems that I don't see solved, nor do I see any indication of solving them.

 

Keep telling yourself that. In the meantime, I'll be watching Eddy Guerrero defend the world title.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

Will that mean HHH will be revealed as the one who attacked Edge at NWO of 2003?

 

Why would he do such a thing?

Edge was getting shampoo commercials that HHH wanted.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

We're not exactly seeing Vince v Steph hyped for PPVs anymore, are we? The focus of Smackdown is off of Vince and Steph and is on Eddy Guerrero. They're not even on TV right now. Vince is showing up occasionally to make announcements and further storylines, yes. I expect that much. If I have to choose any McMahon to appear on TV, I'd pick Vince. Hell, he's still a great character, he's just overexposed. He's not in a storyline going into Wrestlemania. He's not in a 'feud'. That's a landmark improvement.

 

He's still dominating television every time he is there (which is often, coughRAWcough) and he completely undermines and destroys any credibility the GM's have (BOTH). The GM's (Authority Figure) is still used waaaay too much and with them being bumbling idiots every week and The McMahon family the only authority figures who can do right, it just guarantees more McMahon involvement. THIS IS BAD.

 

Yes. What does that have to do with anything? Are you telling me you haven't seen a difference in WWE matches at all in the last couple of months?

 

Not really. The "new style" was to cut down on injuries, right? The Triple German suplex certainly isn't "safe" by any means. It's still there. Infact, the Guerrero/Lesnar match which is heralded as being from the "new style" had _tons_ of needless suplexes. But if you care to explain to me what constitutes this "new style", I'd be more than welcome to entertain it.

 

I'm glad they've slowed things down, but most of the guys on the roster -- the one you seem to think is so rich, which is myth, there are about 15-20 'good' workers in the company,

 

It's not a myth. Their roster is LOADED with Talent: Benoit, Guerrero, Michaels, Ultimo Dragon, Rey Mysterio Jr., Jericho, Tajiri, Guido, etc. etc. and is loaded with names: Goldberg, HHH, Taker, Austin, Foley, etc. etc. AND you ignore the fact that they could have _anyone_ they want.

 

No one left on this deep roster? Which is it, Rudo? Does the company have a deep roster they're not utilizing or do they have such a weak roster that they need Benoit to bail them out in the build to Wrestlemania? It's not both; it can't be. If you're arguing that they do have the talent, but it's not being used, then by proxy you are admitting that Benoit is being pushed at a strong enough level to be taken seriously when competing for the world title.

 

Oooh, ya got me there! ::rollseye:: Let's see, Ric Flair RVD, Kane, Michaels, Steiner, Booker, Nash, Goldberg... all were used before Benoit. They fed 8 guys to HHH in a year. *4* of those people were brought in *specifically* to face HHH. They used up all the possible opponents on RAW, so they had to bring someone in from Smackdown. The possible people? Big Show: Heel, Angle: Did a big angle with him already, may be saved for later on, Brock: Heel... Cena is the only guy that could have been placed in that position besides Benoit and can't nearly get the same type of match that HHH would want for Mania. Though I have no doubt HHH will get his grubby hands on Cena sooner or later. Benoit is the only guy they had left.

 

Do you realize that Benoit has been pushed harder in WWE than Rob Van Dam?

 

Really? I could have sworn RVD didn't look like an complete idiot in every single show leading up to his title bout(s).

 

That Eddy Guerrero has been pushed harder than Chris Jericho?

 

No, Jericho actually got a buffer feud with Rock before getting the title. Eddie went from mid-card straight to champion in 3 weeks.

 

Do you realize that neither of the former have gained near the crowd reaction of the latter, at their peaks?

 

Benoit and Eddie got *much* bigger reactions than RVD and Jericho in their peaks. Benoit in Edmonton vs. Austin was one of the most heated matches I have ever seen. Eddie in Cali and Texas during the summertime was extremely hot as well. If we're talking about peaks...

 

You could make arguments for Benoit and Eddy not being pushed for all these years, but as long as you continue to use the logic that past mistakes are unforgivable, WWE will never, ever, ever be able to dig themselves out of the hole they've fallen into with you because all they can do is understand that they've made mistakes, try something new by pushing new stars and move on.

 

And as long as you ignore the past you won't have the right perspective. If they really wanted to push Eddie and Benoit they would have done so before. Why now? If they really wanted to get Eddie to the moon, then they would have actually -you know- BUILD HIS TITLE RUN RATHER THAN GIVING HIM 3 WEEKS. If they wanted Benoit to be a strong champion they wouldn't make him look like a dolt.

 

Everything is not an absolute. If I had to guess, Vince sees talent in Benoit and knows he's a hard worker, although he thinks something is missing in him. That said, he still *intends* to push him hard this year. Whether or not that sees itself to fruition, I think that's the intention.

 

Ah, so he's giving Benoit a hand-out, a gold watch, how nice. When, exactly, does this "hard push" come about this year?

 

Yes, I know about the road to hell. With Eddy, I think Vince genuinely likes him and sees him as less of a gamble because he is consistently over and has been gaining momentum the past few months. He thinks he's a little small to be the champ, but he's going to give it a shot.

 

Eddie Guerrero was over by Springtime. They turned him heel. The fans wouldn't boo Eddie, so they kinda ignored that. That summer he was mega over. Did they do _anything_ to build him up to a ME program? No, they kept him in the midcard. They even had him lose to Big Show whom Brock beat on several occasions. Then they did the program with Chavo. Then, like magic, he's in the main event. They don't normally do that to the guys they "really" want to push. They usually have long-term plans for them and start it up months in advance. Not so much for Eddie.

 

One thing about Vince -- he makes some boneheaded decisions, he lets wrestlers with agendas influence him too much and he's a mark for size, but he does not consciously push anyone with the goal of burying them.

 

However he does push guys and angles with reluctance and with half-heartedness because he still clings to old values. He'll end it very quickly if he doesn't see what he wants to see. Meanwhile, if he really wants it, even if he doesn't like what he sees he will stick with it until it eventually gets over. If Vince doesn't get behind something 100%, it's fucked.

 

Eddy Guerrero is in a position to carry the company RIGHT NOW.

 

He doesn't have a strong enough foundation in the Main Event. He could lose it and go right back to the midcard and it will be as if nothing had happened.

 

I don't think Benoit can carry the company, because his speaking skills are so weak. But if he can be made a fixture in the main event scene, a top guy, if not the top guy, the guy you go to when someone being elevated needs a great match or to work an extended storyline with a worker who needs to improve who's on his way up the ladder, Benoit is the perfect guy.

 

Disagreed Totally. There is a way that Benoit can carry the company, but you have to work it a specific way. It takes a lot of work and effort and you have to position him just right. There is *too much* there for the fans to ignore and not get behind, but the WWE won't go that way so he'll be a failure on top.

 

If he's treated with respect in that role, and he stays above the upper midcard, he's being used properly.

 

He stays above the upper midcard? WHAT? Are we forgetting the period between Wrestlemania and No Mercy? Benoit's stays near the top are very inconsistent. Benoit is NOT USED PROPERLY. Fuck, please tell me how he is being used properly, because I guess him getting beat up week in and week out and looking like a fucking idiot can't get through to you, so YOU explain this concept to ME.

 

He has not used up his other options at this point. One could argue that, despite their poor treatment, Jericho and Van Dam would be safer bets than Benoit and Guerrero at this point, because they're still over and the fans perceive them as stars. Instead of pushing them, he's trying with Benoit and Eddy.

 

They've already pushed Jericho and Van Dam against. Multiple times, infact.

 

Whether or not they should be 'proud' of it is irrelevant. They turned him face when fans were cheering him. Again, Jericho was having to fight crowds to keep them booing him at various points in 2003 and was not turned face until earlier this year. Flair is pushed as a heel, despite the fans wanting to cheer him. The fact that they let the fans dictate the direction of John Cena means that they made the right decision.

 

And John Cena being straight from OVW and a home-picked talent has nothing to do with them being a lil more receptive to it? The WWE doesn't care about their fans, if it suits their interests then they'll go along with it, but if it doesn't, "ah what do they know, they're marks".

 

It's not a huge accomplishment, actually, and that's the beauty of wrestling -- it's so simple.

 

So why is Matt Hardy absolutely nowhere?

 

I've seen many cases, as I mentioned above, where the fans wanted to go in one direction and they took the wrestler in another. The fact that they turned Cena face shows that they were paying attention.

 

But they didn't turn him face; They just accepted that he was a face and made him fight heels. There are two criterias which make a face: Face = Cheered by fans. Face = Plays for Cheers. Cena did both even when positioned against other faces. What, pray tell, marked the change; when was this face turn?

 

They've been marketing them for months, not just since No Way Out. Quite the accomplishment when Eddy and Rey are considered two of the top ten stars on Smackdown based on internal marketing profiles. But they're still 'enhancement talent'? Right ...

 

They've been "marketing" Rey very inconsistently and Eddie has only recently been pushed that way. Torrie Wilson was also on that list, Loss, not exactly the best reference point to use. And yes, they are still enhancement talent. Rey gets sent out there to get thrown around, and Eddie is there to get out a good match. If they were serious about either then they would put time and effort into them.

 

Fair enough, although being Jewish is also considered a race. Hence, when someone makes an offensive comment toward the Jewish, it's considered racist.

 

There can be Black Jews, there can be Asian Jews.

 

When should they have started hyping the PPV? WWE is not to blame for that. There were only three weeks between PPVs. They used the only chance they had. Take your complaints to Father Time, or man for inventing calendars.

 

I'll take my complaints to those who believe they couldn't have done something before the RR PPV. Which, oh my, appears to be the WWE.

 

A Wrestlemania that spends all of its time playing to the past, to wrestlers that can do them no good at this point, is not consistent with a Wrestlemania that features Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero as headliners.

 

Are you saying that Chris Benoit - a Canadian Technical Wrestler - and Eddie Guerrero - a rule breaker - could not play to the WMs of old?(I'll connect the dots for you, Benoit is Bret Hart at WM 10, Eddie Guerrero is Steve Austin at WM 13)

 

I agree 100% here. WWE is often very guilty of having their cake and wanting to eat it too. That doesn't mean that the JERICHO/TRISH STORYLINE is not an attempt to draw in a female audience.

 

It's not. If they were attempting to draw in a female audience they wouldn't have i)Trish playing such a passive role where two men are manipulating her, ii)The other degrading storylines on the show.

 

I'm open minded and creativity means shit in wrestling (just ask Vince Russo), and a press conference would be a nice touch.

 

Creativity is what separates "they couldn't have done anything else" (you) from "they could have done this, and this, and this" (me). It's about possibilities. There are other, better, possibilities that involves Benoit on Smackdown than there are with Benoit on RAW. The Vince Russo comment just proves that you can't see outside the box, as that was clearly not the intent I was going for. I respect your wrestling knowledge Loss, but you're saying "they couldn't do anything else" (or something like that) an awful lot.

 

But I'm pretty sure if they actually did that, you would ask why they're doing so many jumps and reference Vince's doctrine in 2002 that jumps can only take place if a trade is done between RAW and Smackdown. Yes, they could still use your scenario and it would work and I would like it. But, please understand, that, as a fantasy booker, if WWE doesn't always take *your* route, that doesn't mean it's not the right one. There is often more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Sure there is, and they're using a chain saw. Their route *sucks*.

 

They haven't up until now. They are now. This is a sign of improvement. This is how wrestling works.

 

No, if they were improving then they would be building each of them up strong for their respective title run. That is how wrestling works.

 

I'd agree that the chances of that are high based on others who have gotten pushed at that level and fallen off, but it has not happened yet.

 

It will. Which is why it's so bad. Benoit and Guerrero (Benoit especially) will be looked at as "Well, they were good workers, but when given the ball..." and their stock will dramatically fall.

 

It did not go against it at all. Being 'the best' and winning the world title are the exact same thing. They're synonymous. They're one and the same. There is absolutely no difference.

 

So if Belt = Best, then why didn't he stay on Smackdown where the superior belt is? (even to Benoit, the WWE title is more important than the world title). And, using your theory that title = best, if the champion got stripped of the title for no reason, would he still be the best? He didn't lose it to any one, so no one is "better" than him. What if someone just gets handed the title without earning it?

 

My predictions are that January gets tied in to their current feud. We're due an Angle promo. If we don't get one Thursday night, I'll agree. If not, you're jumping the gun.

 

"The final segment was Kurt Angle coming to the ring to explain why he attacked Eddie last week. He says he did it for us, because Eddie’s a former drug addict and was a bad role model for kids (since encouraged lying, cheating, and stealing). Drugs are bad, mmmmkay? It hurt Kurt to attack Eddie, but he did it for us. Kurt said he’d win at Wrestlemania and be the kind of champion we could be proud of. Of course, Eddie would then sneak up behind Kurt and attack him. Paul Heyman would come out with his fake cops, and have Eddie arrested and hauled off in handcuffs. Eddie’s going to have to spend the night in jail! Angle would taunt Eddie all the way outside and to the police car and yell at him as the police drove away."

 

Benoit is better off than he was six months ago. Therefore, this has helped him. Simple as that.

 

But he's not better off than he was in Decemeber against Brock. Therefore, it has hurt him. And, when his title reign is over and he's sent to the midcard and him being a failure, it will have DEFINITELY hurt him and make 6 months ago look like a far-off dream.

 

It's still a storyline mid-stream. I don't get the feeling that you understand that storylines don't take place in five minutes and leaving questions open to be answered is a good thing.

 

There are _fundamental_ issues in that relationship which begs questioning that the WWE cannot conceivably answer (unless, of course, they go my "InsAngle" route). This is all discussed in another thread, but the basics are "Why is Angle meddling in the Guerrero's affairs when he has never shown interest before?". I get the feeling that you don't care about plot holes like that. Well, muy feeling is justified because you _said_ that, while yours is based on nothing.

 

I've made my point clear on this, just as you've made yours.

 

Actually you haven't. I don't see how the World Title -in Benoits eyes- is greater than the WWE title. Especially considering his history with the title and the wrestler holding it.

 

They are undercard storylines that get little to no TV time to develop.

 

Knoble and Nidia didn't get time?! It went on for MONTHS!

 

Little Johnny was months ago and you're still upset about it?

 

C'mon Loss, you said that the turn-around point was at Survivor Series. Little Johnny, as well as them completely forgetting about it, was after. As was Foley's -who was forced to retire- wrestling match.

 

The 'blind Nidia' and Stacy/Jackie stuff is stupid, yes, but it's not getting 30 minutes a show to conclude either. You can look at *any* period in the history of pro wrestling and there's always going to be some bad with the good.

 

The bad not only outweighs the good, the bad overwhelms it.

 

That was pre-Survivor Series.

 

Yes, so it was. 6 days before. Ok, then POST-SS they didn't resolve it. Point still stands.

 

I'd say the storylines are at about 75% good actually, if not higher.

 

Oh, I'd LOVE to hear you justify this.

 

The matches? You're probably right.

 

 

But the fact that they're making real efforts to change the style shows that they're at least trying to improve in that area.

 

"Real efforts" lol. I know what real effort is, what they're doing now is not a real effort. The difference is negligible, but I look forward to your explanation on how the new style is different from the old style. But hey, they're "trying"!~!

 

If I see an attempt to improve I can let a lot slide because it's an acknowledgement that the current direction isn't working. That's the difference between you and me.

 

They've been saying "rebuilding process" for almost 3 years now. When will they be "rebuilt"? The difference between you and me is that I expect more out of them than just half-hearted effort. You're treating them like 2 year olds where if they go a day without breaking something and shitting on the floor it's something to be celebrated.

 

Keep telling yourself that. In the meantime, I'll be watching Eddy Guerrero defend the world title.

 

I'm not telling myself anything. They're clearly doing it. In the meantime, I'll be watching Chris Benoit bomb through no fault of his own and then I'll see both of them in the midcard.

[Guest Loss]

He's still dominating television every time he is there (which is often, coughRAWcough) and he completely undermines and destroys any credibility the GM's have (BOTH).

 

I can't argue with you here. The only point I can make is that Vince is not on RAW every week. He is not feuding with main eventers in PPV programs. That has stopped. That's not to say it won't happen again. It very well could. But right now, for the first time since Wrestlemania XIV, there is not a McMahon directly involved in the storyline of any match at Wrestlemania. The closest is Undertaker/Kane, and that's gone in another direction at this point. Vince did make a lot of matches on RAW, but this is the least McMahon-intensive Wrestlemania since 1997. That's a sign of improvement, and it may only be a moral victory, but the point remains that it is still a sign of improvement.

 

*snip*

 

Not really.  The "new style" was to cut down on injuries, right?  The Triple German suplex certainly isn't "safe" by any means.  It's still there.  Infact, the Guerrero/Lesnar match which is heralded as being from the "new style" had _tons_ of needless suplexes.  But if you care to explain to me what constitutes this "new style", I'd be more than welcome to entertain it.

 

There is not nearly as much sprinting. Most matches now contain a feeling out process. More emphasis is placed on holds and less is placed on punching and kicking. There is more emphasis being placed on body part work and the wrestlers are working at a slower pace.

 

There are kinks that still need to be worked out. It's almost as if they are discouraging highspots, which isn't the right course of action. The wrestlers are still ignoring the crowds more than they should be. That's to be expected when it was announced months ago that WWE would start having wrestlers call matches in the ring on house shows and eventually on TV. They're moving toward that, and they're trying to be more clear in the style they want, compared to December 2001 where you had the road agents telling the Hardyz to work a slow style against each other while Vince wanted a highspot match, and as a result, they ended up in the doghouse. There are no mixed signals being sent from management at this point. That is a sign of improvement.

 

It's not a myth.  Their roster is LOADED with Talent: Benoit, Guerrero, Michaels, Ultimo Dragon, Rey Mysterio Jr., Jericho, Tajiri, Guido, etc. etc. and is loaded with names: Goldberg, HHH, Taker, Austin, Foley, etc. etc.  AND you ignore the fact that they could have _anyone_ they want.

 

There's not exactly an abundance of talent out there at the moment that isn't in WWE. The roster is *not* loaded with talent. You mentioned eight names. Eight! In addition to that, I might add Shannon Moore, Hurricane, Paul London, Jamie Noble, Matt Hardy, Edge, Christian and Chavo Guerrero. Hell, throw in Billy Kidman and Sho Funaki for fun. That's 10 more names, giving us 18 good workers in the company. Austin and Foley are semi-retired, so toss them out. Goldberg will be gone at Wrestlemania, so we'll keep him around for now. As far as big names, you probably have Angle, Lesnar, Taker, Kane and HHH as full-time workers. Including Goldberg, that's six big names. So you have a roster of 18 good workers, only a few of which are great, and six big names. 24 wrestlers who are capable of working a full schedule. That's 12 wrestlers for each show. That's six feuds at a time on each show, even less if you do any tag matches at all. The roster is not as deep as you seem to think.

 

Oooh, ya got me there!  ::rollseye:: Let's see, Ric Flair RVD, Kane, Michaels, Steiner, Booker, Nash, Goldberg... all were used before Benoit.  They fed 8 guys to HHH in a year. *4* of those people were brought in *specifically* to face HHH.  They used up all the possible opponents on RAW, so they had to bring someone in from Smackdown.  The possible people?  Big Show: Heel, Angle: Did a big angle with him already, may be saved for later on, Brock: Heel... Cena is the only guy that could have been placed in that position besides Benoit and can't nearly get the same type of match that HHH would want for Mania.  Though I have no doubt HHH will get his grubby hands on Cena sooner or later.  Benoit is the only guy they had left.

 

This means that the roster is not as deep as you thought, and also that Benoit was being used in better fashion than all but a handful of wrestlers.

 

Really?  I could have sworn RVD didn't look like an complete idiot in every single show leading up to his title bout(s).

 

That's funny. He trusted Ric Flair in September, despite Flair reversing the decision when he won the title in May. He lost the Intercontinental title to Chris Jericho the week before Unforgiven '02.

 

As for his other defenses, he jobbed to Jericho in the build to No Mercy '01, he was a non-factor in the Survivor Series '01 main event build, he was a non-factor in the Survivor Series '02 main event build and those are the only chances he has gotten.

 

Benoit, despite never getting the crowd reaction that Rob gets on a consistent basis, unless he's in Canada, defeated the Rock in his second week in the company, defeated Jericho on four PPVs in 2000, defeated Angle in '02, Brock in '03 and _again_ broke the all-time stamina record to win the 2004 Royal Rumble. You'll have to acknowledge *that* sooner or later. Benoit has been pushed far harder than RVD.

 

No, Jericho actually got a buffer feud with Rock before getting the title.

 

Jericho started his feud with the Rock on the 10/08/01 RAW. He won the WCW title 13 days later at No Mercy. He lost the WCW title two weeks later on RAW. He won the WWF title 34 days later after jobbing to Rock twice on television and Austin once in the weeks before the pay-per-view.

 

Compare this to Eddy Guerrero, who defeated Brock Lesnar on television and again on PPV, who also had to wrestle for 40 minutes to earn the title shot, and not only was he pushed harder than Jericho, but he got an extra week of hype to boot.

 

Also add in that Meltzer has reported that the office does *not* see Eddy as a transitional champion, but rather as the next big draw, and that they plan on keeping the belt on him for the foreseeable future. Contrast that with Jericho, who won the title for the specific purpose of jobbing it to HHH at Wrestlemania. Had Austin not turned face, Jericho never even would have gotten that spot.

 

Benoit and Eddie got *much* bigger reactions than RVD and Jericho in their peaks.  Benoit in Edmonton vs. Austin was one of the most heated matches I have ever seen.

 

It was indeed very heated. Compare this to the reaction that RVD was getting every week from August-October 2001. It was Hogan-like. Compare this to the reaction Jericho got when got the phantom win over HHH or when he defeated Benoit for the IC title on the 05/04/00 Smackdown. Compare this to the fact that Benoit getting loud pops is a more sporadic thing while Jericho and RVD were consistently getting loud reactions for a sustained period of time.

 

*snip*

 

And as long as you ignore the past you won't have the right perspective.

 

I do not ignore the past. I keep it in perspective actually. The truth is that what happened 12 months ago on WWE TV is forgotten because it has nothing to do with any feuds that are currently going on. If they are seriously trying to improve, but they're constantly being harped on for mistakes they made months and years ago, how do they ever dig themselves out of the hole?

 

If they really wanted to push Eddie and Benoit they would have done so before.  Why now?

 

Because the time is right. The best time for Benoit was when he first came into the company, and they dropped the ball there, because they could have saved matches against HHH or Rock for PPV, with him as the world champion who never was pinned to lose the belt, but they put the matches on free TV. Benoit is being pushed now. Why is irrelevant. Pushing Benoit in the main event of Wrestlemania is automatically a correction of any past mistakes in the way he has been used, as long as he wins in the end, the end being whenever WWE dictates is the end, which means it could be Wrestlemania or Backlash.

 

If they really wanted to get Eddie to the moon, then they would have actually -you know- BUILD HIS TITLE RUN RATHER THAN GIVING HIM 3 WEEKS.

 

THEY HAVE BEEN BUILDING EDDY SINCE JULY! They pushed him as a single, had him win the US title tournament, broke up the tag team to establish him as a single, had him overcome his family turning on him to get a shot at the world title, after hanging in there for 40 minutes and outlasting multi-time world champion Kurt Angle, before heading to No Way Out and getting a relatively clean win over Brock Lesnar. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that build. Nothing. In fact, it's actively good.

 

If they wanted Benoit to be a strong champion they wouldn't make him look like a dolt.

 

Benoit's use on RAW at this point is starting to depress me, and I didn't like the way HBK brushed off the Crossface Monday night at all. If Benoit wins the title, at any point in the course of this story, this is immediately redeemed though.

 

Ah, so he's giving Benoit a hand-out, a gold watch, how nice.  When, exactly, does this "hard push" come about this year?

 

As a fan watching the product, why does it matter to you *why* Vince is pushing Benoit? The fact that he is should be enough.

 

Eddie Guerrero was over by Springtime.  They turned him heel.  The fans wouldn't boo Eddie, so they kinda ignored that.  That summer he was mega over.  Did they do _anything_ to build him up to a ME program?  No, they kept him in the midcard.

 

No, they didn't. He won the US title by defeating a man who had beaten him several times -- Chris Benoit -- before going into programs with John Cena, who headlined a PPV earlier in the year and Big Show, two-time former world champion. This is a step above Taijiri.

 

They even had him lose to Big Show whom Brock beat on several occasions.  Then they did the program with Chavo.  Then, like magic, he's in the main event.

 

If you follow your logic, Austin feuded with Owen for months over the IC title, then *like magic* defeated Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania XIV. And if Eddy successfully defends the title against Big Show this year, the finish at No Mercy made sense. The Eddy/Chavo storyline had to be done to get Eddy out of the tag ranks and establish him as his own man.

 

They don't normally do that to the guys they "really" want to push.  They usually have long-term plans for them and start it up months in advance.  Not so much for Eddie.

 

Eddie's road to the title was a seven-month journey.

 

However he does push guys and angles with reluctance and with half-heartedness because he still clings to old values.  He'll end it very quickly if he doesn't see what he wants to see.  Meanwhile, if he really wants it, even if he doesn't like what he sees he will stick with it until it eventually gets over.  If Vince doesn't get behind something 100%, it's fucked.

 

According to Meltzer, Vince has been one of the main proponents of Eddy Guerrero being pushed and has noticed the crowd reactions he has been getting. I'm still in awe that you can find anything bad to say about Eddy Guerrero winning the world title.

 

He doesn't have a strong enough foundation in the Main Event.  He could lose it and go right back to the midcard and it will be as if nothing had happened.

 

He could. Just like anyone else could. Doesn't mean he will.

 

Disagreed Totally.  There is a way that Benoit can carry the company, but you have to work it a specific way.  It takes a lot of work and effort and you have to position him just right.  There is *too much* there for the fans to ignore and not get behind, but the WWE won't go that way so he'll be a failure on top.

 

Benoit is not a strong enough interview to be *the* guy in the company. He is a good enough worker to be a consistent main-event level performer though.

 

He stays above the upper midcard?  WHAT?  Are we forgetting the period between Wrestlemania and No Mercy?  Benoit's stays near the top are very inconsistent.  Benoit is NOT USED PROPERLY.  Fuck, please tell me how he is being used properly, because I guess him getting beat up week in and week out and looking like a fucking idiot can't get through to you, so YOU explain this concept to ME.

 

I said 'if'. If. *If* Benoit is kept above the upper midcard, he is being used properly. He was not at that level until October or so. Therefore, he has been used properly since October.

 

They've already pushed Jericho and Van Dam against.  Multiple times, infact.

 

Against what?

 

And John Cena being straight from OVW and a home-picked talent has nothing to do with them being a lil more receptive to it?

 

Of course it does. What is your point? That they should bury their homegrown talent?

 

The WWE doesn't care about their fans, if it suits their interests then they'll go along with it, but if it doesn't, "ah what do they know, they're marks".

 

There is truth in this. They should still be credited for seeing that Cena was getting cheered and programming him against heels. They could have just as easily continued to program him against other faces and it would have hurt his momentum considerably. They didn't. They did the right thing. Acknowledge it.

 

So why is Matt Hardy absolutely nowhere?

 

Matt Hardy should be getting pushed. We're talking about Cena though.

 

What, pray tell, marked the change; when was this face turn?

 

Animosity with Albert. Coming out at the end of the show and joining Angle's team.

 

They've been "marketing" Rey very inconsistently and Eddie has only recently been pushed that way.  Torrie Wilson was also on that list, Loss, not exactly the best reference point to use.

 

That's weak. Torrie Wilson is a woman. She's being used as eye candy. She's being used properly. That has nothing to do with Rey.

 

And yes, they are still enhancement talent.  Rey gets sent out there to get thrown around, and Eddie is there to get out a good match.  If they were serious about either then they would put time and effort into them.

 

EDDY JUST WON THE WORLD TITLE.

EDDY JUST WON THE WORLD TITLE.

EDDY JUST WON THE WORLD TITLE.

 

Rey is the top babyface in the cruiserweight division.

Rey is the top babyface in the cruiserweight division.

Rey is the top babyface in the cruiserweight division.

 

I hate saying this, I don't like saying this, it's always been a pet peeve of mine when people say this, but you leave me no choice because in this case, it's true.

 

There is absolutely no chance of you ever being happy with any wrestling product ever, past, present or future.

 

There can be Black Jews, there can be Asian Jews.

 

Yes, and Jewish people are also considered a race *and* a religion. I don't understand that fully myself, but it's true.

 

I'll take my complaints to those who believe they couldn't have done something before the RR PPV.  Which, oh my, appears to be the WWE.

 

They did tons before the Rumble PPV to gradually move Eddy up the card, going so far as to reverse segments in shows to end shows with him instead of other programs.

 

Are you saying that Chris Benoit - a Canadian Technical Wrestler - and Eddie Guerrero - a rule breaker - could not play to the WMs of old?(I'll connect the dots for you, Benoit is Bret Hart at WM 10, Eddie Guerrero is Steve Austin at WM 13)

 

I'm saying that Benoit and Eddy are here now and Austin and Bret are yesterday's news and they need to focus on the talent who can currently do them good, not put them in the shadows of the legends before them.

 

It's not.  If they were attempting to draw in a female audience they wouldn't have i)Trish playing such a passive role where two men are manipulating her, ii)The other degrading storylines on the show.

 

It's a love story. Women look no stronger on Days Of Our Lives or The Young And The Restless.

 

Creativity is what separates "they couldn't have done anything else" (you) from "they could have done this, and this, and this" (me).  It's about possibilities.  There are other, better, possibilities that involves Benoit on Smackdown than there are with Benoit on RAW.

 

And because they did not use your ideas, you are unwilling to give any of the ideas presented a chance.

 

The Vince Russo comment just proves that you can't see outside the box, as that was clearly not the intent I was going for.

 

No, the 'think outside the box' comment shows that you don't care about Benoit and Eddy being pushed to the top, but rather that WWE should be a vehicle that spotlights your vision and puts you over on message boards. That seems to be the pressing issue, proving you right and showing us how great you are. I like you. You're funny and you're smart, and you're well-written. But your main goal here seems to be to put over your own grand vision and booking talent, not discuss wrestling with other wrestling fans.

 

I like to fantasy book too. I'm not discounting that. But it's important to remember that it's just that -- a fantasy -- and that if they don't go that route, it's not necessarily the wrong one.

 

-- This will have to be a two-parter, I have to go for now.

[Guest Loss]

*continuing*

 

I respect your wrestling knowledge Loss, but you're saying "they couldn't do anything else" (or something like that) an awful lot.

 

And I respect the ability that you have to come up with better situations than they've presented nine times out of ten. I really do. But, seriously, is the goal to show how WWE could be better or to show how you could do a better job booking WWE?

 

Sure there is, and they're using a chain saw. Their route *sucks*.

 

This is etched in your head to a point where you're not open-minded enough to accept that the product is in a transitional phase and it's better than it's been at any point since 2001.

 

No, if they were improving then they would be building each of them up strong for their respective title run. That is how wrestling works.

 

Eddy got that treatment. Benoit is *being* built up right now, to a point where I think the right decision is to put the belt on him at Backlash instead of Wrestlemania so they'll have more time. Just because Eddy hadn't stated that his goal was to win the world title last year doesn't mean they only started building it up after the Royal Rumble.

 

It will. Which is why it's so bad. Benoit and Guerrero (Benoit especially) will be looked at as "Well, they were good workers, but when given the ball..." and their stock will dramatically fall.

 

This is a very real possibility. Wait. And. See.

 

So if Belt = Best, then why didn't he stay on Smackdown where the superior belt is? (even to Benoit, the WWE title is more important than the world title). And, using your theory that title = best, if the champion got stripped of the title for no reason, would he still be the best? He didn't lose it to any one, so no one is "better" than him. What if someone just gets handed the title without earning it?

 

HHH was handed the belt and he was already perceived as being the best on RAW, so in this case, that argument is invalid. Had they handed the title to Christian or Lance Storm, I could definitely see your point. Again, because wrestlers covet the belt, that in itself makes the belt valuable.

 

"The final segment was Kurt Angle coming to the ring to explain why he attacked Eddie last week. He says he did it for us, because Eddie’s a former drug addict and was a bad role model for kids (since encouraged lying, cheating, and stealing). Drugs are bad, mmmmkay? It hurt Kurt to attack Eddie, but he did it for us. Kurt said he’d win at Wrestlemania and be the kind of champion we could be proud of. Of course, Eddie would then sneak up behind Kurt and attack him. Paul Heyman would come out with his fake cops, and have Eddie arrested and hauled off in handcuffs. Eddie’s going to have to spend the night in jail! Angle would taunt Eddie all the way outside and to the police car and yell at him as the police drove away."

 

That is a convoluted explanation because Angle didn't tell us why he attacked him, he told us why he didn't like him. He's already going to the goofy route instead of the deadly route and having Eddy attack him when he needs to look like a killer isn't the way to go.

 

That was the wrong decision. Not a bad decision, but a weak decision. It does nothing to differentiate the title match from any other match on the show, when in actuality, Eddy v Angle should probably go on last and be the centerpiece of the hype, for the sake of the future of WWE.

 

But he's not better off than he was in Decemeber against Brock. Therefore, it has hurt him. And, when his title reign is over and he's sent to the midcard and him being a failure, it will have DEFINITELY hurt him and make 6 months ago look like a far-off dream.

 

Again, there's a very real possibility of that happening. I'd say chances on you being right are 90%, maybe better. But there is still that other 10% that he'll come through, win the title and be a star. It's that 10% that I thought was what motivated people like you and me to continue watching the product -- the chance that things could literally change in seconds.

 

There are _fundamental_ issues in that relationship which begs questioning that the WWE cannot conceivably answer (unless, of course, they go my "InsAngle" route). This is all discussed in another thread, but the basics are "Why is Angle meddling in the Guerrero's affairs when he has never shown interest before?". I get the feeling that you don't care about plot holes like that. Well, muy feeling is justified because you _said_ that, while yours is based on nothing.

 

I explained my thoughts on Angle's promo above.

 

Actually you haven't. I don't see how the World Title -in Benoits eyes- is greater than the WWE title. Especially considering his history with the title and the wrestler holding it.

 

They are both world titles and neither is better than the other. However, he sees beating HHH meaning more than beating Brock Lesnar. But the world titles have equal meaning to each other because they are presented as being the top titles on their respective brands and they are equally coveted.

 

Knoble and Nidia didn't get time?! It went on for MONTHS!

 

For five minutes a show, if that. Go to the bathroom.

 

C'mon Loss, you said that the turn-around point was at Survivor Series. Little Johnny, as well as them completely forgetting about it, was after. As was Foley's -who was forced to retire- wrestling match.

 

Foley's wrestling match built to the feud that is currently being played out with Randy Orton and Evolution. The feedback was so bad on 'Little Johnny' that it was sacked immediately. Again, that's a sign that they're conscientious of what the fanbase is thinking and they are responding accordingly.

 

The bad not only outweighs the good, the bad overwhelms it.

 

The main event scene is the best it has been since 2001. There are more feuds with more guys getting more shots than there have been in some time. Most of those feuds have been built up for months and Wrestlemania XX is receiving more hype -- better hype -- than any Wrestlemania has since 1998. The bad does not outweigh the good.

 

Yes, so it was. 6 days before. Ok, then POST-SS they didn't resolve it. Point still stands.

 

The point stands on a broken leg. Yes, it was a dropped storyline. It was also months ago and you're still holding them to it. Your standards are too high.

 

Oh, I'd LOVE to hear you justify this.

 

I have ... time and time and time and time and time and time and time again.

 

"Real efforts" lol. I know what real effort is, what they're doing now is not a real effort. The difference is negligible, but I look forward to your explanation on how the new style is different from the old style. But hey, they're "trying"!~!

 

I explained the style difference in yesterday's post.

 

They've been saying "rebuilding process" for almost 3 years now.

 

And they've been blowing smoke up our asses until recently.

 

When will they be "rebuilt"?

 

I expect the numbers to start reflecting the product in a major way by Wrestlemania XXI. Heck, gates have been up recently, showing that people like what they are seeing.

 

The difference between you and me is that I expect more out of them than just half-hearted effort. You're treating them like 2 year olds where if they go a day without breaking something and shitting on the floor it's something to be celebrated.

 

I expect them to try. I would rather them try and fail and continue to push the same wrestlers in the same situations. Failure should be nothing to be afraid of. At all. As long as WWE is always trying something new, and when they find a direction that's working, they stay with it, I will be happy with the product.

 

The difference is that you are unwilling to forgive them when they make even the most insignificant mistake because you want to be proven right.

 

I'm not telling myself anything. They're clearly doing it. In the meantime, I'll be watching Chris Benoit bomb through no fault of his own and then I'll see both of them in the midcard.

 

Oh, so you're watching old tapes then? Because that's not happening in 2004 WWE.