The usage of the wrestlers at Wrestlemania

[Guest Three minutes]

Another long post-I hope not too long. But I've been thinking and it has been said in some places that the Wrestlemania card is somewhat disappointing. I got to thinking it may not be because it does not have a match like Austin-Hogan, but rather the talent they do have is not used properly. I looked at each of the confirmed and rumored matches for the show and when you break it down, there are two categories for this whole deal-the matches in terms of productivity for the wrestler in the future and dream match/entertainment value. I basically broke down my analysis into these two forms. Bold are matches confirmed on TV and italics are rumored matches.

 

Undertaker versus Kane: For the Undertaker this is fine, I mean he could put over a young big man like O' Haire or A-Train or Rhyno (that of course means SS never happened). But at the same time the fans (including me) want to see the old school Taker if only for a few months. The bottom line is I can't figure out an opponent for Taker that would make Wrestlemania better (which is what this post is about). For Kane it's fine too, the final battle between Kane and the Undertaker at Wrestlemania XX, it's fitting. But if Kane loses--that's it. Other possible opponents for Kane could have been RVD (again provided SS never happened)

 

Benoit-HHH-HBK: Short version Benoit in a title match is fine, it should be against Lesnar though. HBK should be having a dream match with the Rock. As far as HHH a match with the Rock or Jericho would have been interesting, but I have no problem with HHH defending the title he's been linked too since Sept. 2002.

 

Orton/Batista/Flair? versus Rock and Sock: Well I think that Foley and Orton should be one on one with Orton going over, but I can see saving it and I could see Foley not being comfortable with doing a 15 minute match after all of this this time off. But the card would be better. There is a whole bunch of things the Rock coulc be doing that would make the card seem more special, Cena or HBK or even HHH. If Foley-Orton was one on one or if the Rock was more full-time, this tag match at mania would be a Raw match...

 

 

 

This will be a two parter...I have to go.

[Guest Three minutes]

I think I’ll drop the bold and Italic thing, I messed it up

 

As far as Orton and Batista go, if they are going to go with Orton there are not many better ways then to have him go over Foley. So this is good for him. As far as Batista, I agree with Choken One that he should play Diesel or Sid to Orton’s (or HHH’s) HBK. In fact that may be better for him, he does a couple of power spots on the outside, gets ejected, but makes an impact. I’m not sure Flair should be wrestling, but he should be a big part of the show because he’s Ric Flair, problem is I can’t find the opponent for him that would make Mania better.

 

Torrie and Sable versus Jackie and Stacy: The only thing I’ll say about this is it better not be too long. Well, one more thing, I have no problem with Torrie and Sable being on the show as they are on Playboy, but not a match.

 

Brock versus Goldberg: Brock should be wrestling Benoit, but that’s for Benoit’s sake, for Brock this match had to happen before Goldberg left. But there is no other opponent besides the aforementioned two that really works. Goldberg is the same thing, it had to be either Brock or Austin (who I’ll get to later). Brock-Goldberg is a Wrestlemania dream match too so this works.

 

Chris Jericho versus Christian: On one hand in terms of opponent Jericho deserves better than Christian, who is only a mid-card heel at best. A Jericho win over Christian does not do much for his career. But at the same time the storyline is worthy of Jericho and if he gets the girl in the end I’m sure a lot of people will be happy. I’m not a fan of Jericho being with Trish, because I don’t see what it does for either of them for the future. In fact I would say the only way this match really works is if Trish turns on Jericho and goes with Christian, I guess. Christian can elevate himself greatly if he actually won, but I‘m not holding my breath on that. As far as alternate opponents for Jericho, I don’t have much. If things were written differently, he could have faced HHH or something.

 

John Cena versus the Big Show: Well Cena should get a run with the U.S title before moving on to the big strap by the Fall at the latest. The only thing is why does Orton who is not nearly as Cena get to go over Foley and Cena’s got to beat the Big Show again. Including tag matches Cena has defeated the Big show about 5 or 6 times on television. The alternate opponent for Cena is obvious the Rock and it won’t happen for who knows what reason. As far as the Big Show, this is tricky it almost would be better if the Big Show won an interpromotional battle royal because it is important to keep him strong for Eddie for this Spring/Summer. But I can’t think of another obvious opponent.

 

Angle-Eddie: Other than the dream Angle-HBK or Angle-Flair (for some people). This is perfect for both. Angle has a great match with a strong opponent and gets to put over Eddie as a big star. Eddie gets the credibility he needs to be a money drawing champion, everyone wins.

 

Crusierweight battle Royal: I think a Chavo-Rey rematch fits better here, but if someone else can breakthrough and impress fans and management enough to get a regular spot on Smackdown then I think it would be worth the potential cluster this match this could be.

 

Any feedback and thoughts would be appreciated.

[Scroby 0]

Why would HBK vs Rock be a dream match?

[muzz 0]

I wouldn't neccessarily call it a dream match, but it's definitely in the same vein.

[Guest Three minutes]

I was thinking it was a "dream match" because it is a rare match that still has not been done and both men can electrify a crowd. Choken has said that these two could steal the show and I agree. The promos may be a problem because HBK, while he was never great on promos has not done anything memorable in terms of talking since his comeback and the Rock would destroy him on that end of it.

[Guest I Got Banned for Sucking]

I wouldn't call Shawn Michaels VS The Rock a "Dream Match" - the fact that they are both great wrestlers that have never faced eachother is not enough to warrant a match between the two, at WrestleMania, anyway.

[Guest Anglesault]

I'm not exactly sure why Undertaker should be putting SOH over EVER. Please explain.

 

And you act like going over Foley will magically get Orton over.

[Guest Choken One]

If SOH's character actually succeded before they aborted it with the Piper Angle...Those two characters would have been interesting to combine...

 

Kane is perfect because he doesn't really lose his heat for losing as it would KILL Rhyno and it killed A-Train last year.

 

I'm still not sure why they even bothered with A-Train...TBS/Taker would have been more "WM Classic"...although looking at the cast of people Taker went over at Mania before, he fits in nicely...

 

Taker went over hosses (Bundy, Sid, Kane and A-Train/TBS, Bossman) Two big name heels on the way out (Roberts and Nash), Two Major Names (Flair and HHH), A old timer (Snuka).

 

So I must say with the exception of two, his Unbeaten record isn't that impressive.

[Guest Anglesault]

If SOH's character actually succeded before they aborted it with the Piper Angle...Those two characters would have been interesting to combine...

Yeah, it's PIPER's fault that SOH flopped when he went live.

[Guest Choken One]

No...They killed the Character putting him with Piper...

 

Thinking being his crony was enough to get him heat and killing off the very gimmick he had to become a clueless crony....Piper left...WWE didn't feel like trying anymore with him and got injured anyways and hasn't done anything worthwhile over then Stealing the show at the APA invitational.

[Guest Anglesault]

No...They killed the Character putting him with Piper...

 

.

No, HE killed the gimmick when he went and gave some SHITASTIC live performances.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

If SOH's character actually succeded before they aborted it with the Piper Angle...Those two characters would have been interesting to combine...

 

Kane is perfect because he doesn't really lose his heat for losing as it would KILL Rhyno and it killed A-Train last year.

 

I'm still not sure why they even bothered with A-Train...TBS/Taker would have been more "WM Classic"...although looking at the cast of people Taker went over at Mania before, he fits in nicely...

 

Taker went over hosses (Bundy, Sid, Kane and A-Train/TBS, Bossman) Two big name heels on the way out (Roberts and Nash), Two Major Names (Flair and HHH), A old timer (Snuka).

 

So I must say with the exception of two, his Unbeaten record isn't that impressive.

I wouldn't really say Undertakers WM streak was lame.

 

WM VII vs. Snuka: He destroyed a Legend with little trouble

WM VIII vs. Roberts: Got the rob from a top heel who was leaving.

WM IX we know sucked

WM XI was filler

WM XII vs. Diesel was a big deal considering they feuded for about 3 months before the match.

WM XIII vs. Sid is a toss-up, but Sid was booked strong leading up to WM, so no complaints.

WM XIV vs. Kane was the match I thought UT would lose the streak.

WM XV vs. Boss Man. No main event feuds to put him in so he destroys Bossman.

WM X-7 vs. HHH Another big match he won clean.

WM X-8 vs. Flair. Flair was booked like he was going to win, but UT pulled it out at the end. I wouldn't say throw-away.

Last Yr vs. 2 Fat Guys: No real feuds to stick him in.

 

So I'd say 6-7 of the WM Matches were important, while the rest were either filler or mid-card matches due to lack of ME competion.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

WWE didn't feel like trying anymore with him and got injured anyways and hasn't done anything worthwhile over then Stealing the show at the APA invitational.

'The show' as in the bar room brawl segment or the PPV it was on?

 

I disagree with the latter vehemently, and as for the former.... well, it was a dumb segment that was forgotten within a week.

[Austin3164life 0]

John Cena versus the Big Show: Well Cena should get a run with the U.S title before moving on to the big strap by the Fall at the latest. The only thing is why does Orton who is not nearly as Cena get to go over Foley and Cena’s got to beat the Big Show again. Including tag matches Cena has defeated the Big show about 5 or 6 times on television. The alternate opponent for Cena is obvious the Rock and it won’t happen for who knows what reason. As far as the Big Show, this is tricky it almost would be better if the Big Show won an interpromotional battle royal because it is important to keep him strong for Eddie for this Spring/Summer. But I can’t think of another obvious opponent.

 

Cena should not get the WWE World Title for at least another year-year and a half. Stretch his push out more so the fans can care about him and learn to love him, and perhaps he can have a lengthy run as U.S. Champ, perhaps to add prestige to the belt (defend it more often than once every two months, provided they have solid opponents for him). The U.S. Title is the perfect belt for Cena.

[jester 0]

For Kane it's fine too, the final battle between Kane and the Undertaker at Wrestlemania XX, it's fitting. But if Kane loses--that's it.

Undertaker is winning this one. FIrst, there's the streak to keep alive. Second, he'll be re-inventing his character for WM. You don't job under these circumstances.

 

And I don't believe it will be the last Kane vs Taker at WM. That's close to saying "one last hurrah for Hogan".

[Guest Choken One]

WWE didn't feel like trying anymore with him and got injured anyways and hasn't done anything worthwhile over then Stealing the show at the APA invitational.

'The show' as in the bar room brawl segment or the PPV it was on?

 

I disagree with the latter vehemently, and as for the former.... well, it was a dumb segment that was forgotten within a week.

Yes, His little spot in the throwaway segment overshadowed the ****1/2 tag match and great Three way...

 

Are you insane? Of course, I meant the APA Invitational itself.

[Guest Anglesault]

It's really kind of a shame that he bombed so badly with his gimmick and in the ring, because he had some nice moments.

[Slayer 0]

I still don't get the SOH thing, it's like the chicken-egg argument

 

Did he get stuck with Piper because he sucked, or did he suck because he got stuck with Piper

 

And given Anglesault's history, I'm hesitant to believe anything he says

[Scroby 0]

SOH has always been good but here's where he went wrong..signing with WWE! See's here's where WWE figured out something.... He's tall, great body (fitness wise), could have a good monster/dark gimmick...but wait HE'S GOT TALENT! That was WWE's problem. WCW realized what they could have done with him and he was going to be one of WCW's major guys once it came back before WCW was bought out by Vince. So what happens whenever someone whose a big name comes from a differant company to WWE...they get sent down to OVW. SOH got sent down to OVW and was told not to use the swanton bomb making him into a complete ground worker. SOH could be great if WWE used him correctly but I don't think that'll ever happen. If he ever gets let go he should head down to NWA:TNA and make an impact there.

[Guest Choken One]

SOH came into 2003 with BIG HYPE with the Promos where he challenged Authority, Religion, Morals, Sexuality with slick production values. It seemed perfect, a fresh new character along the lines of a devil's advocate who certaintly had a great look...

 

The Problem was, WWE wasn't sure how to book his character LIVE (or taped rather)...So they fumbled right away and SOHs bad acting added to it, so he disapeared a few weeks as most assumed he was just retooling the gimmick. He showed up on House Shows working the gimmick to not so good results, it was at this point they thought SOH would work well as a Henchman...So Naturally they stuck these two "evil" minds together to ruin Hulkamania (10 years ago that was a MAIN EVENT spot) in 2003, it was a sidekick crony to a 50 year old man with the ONE highlight being ripping off the leg of Zach Gowan.

 

When Piper got fired, It literally left SOH in the cold and he got injured shortly after.

 

SOH was just another example of WWE creating a great character via promo and video production but failing to execute...another example was Goldust, whom was greatly hyped but almost BOMBED right away until the Constroversial Homosexual Mind Game angle saved it.

[Scroby 0]

You know looking at it right now. If Dead Taker stays on Smackdown! SOH could be a good opponent for him.

[Guest MikeSC]

SOH has always been good but here's where he went wrong..signing with WWE! See's here's where WWE figured out something.... He's tall, great body (fitness wise), could have a good monster/dark gimmick...but wait HE'S GOT TALENT! That was WWE's problem. WCW realized what they could have done with him and he was going to be one of WCW's major guys once it came back before WCW was bought out by Vince. So what happens whenever someone whose a big name comes from a differant company to WWE...they get sent down to OVW. SOH got sent down to OVW and was told not to use the swanton bomb making him into a complete ground worker. SOH could be great if WWE used him correctly but I don't think that'll ever happen. If he ever gets let go he should head down to NWA:TNA and make an impact there.

The same O'Haire who couldn't throw a punch, chop, kick, or clothesline to save his life in WCW (I recapped WCW at the time, so I watched all of it) is "talented"?

 

BTW, please note that Sean AGREED that he needed seasoning in OVW.

 

It was hard for young workers to not look decent in WCW at the end. They were bringing up anybody who had trained for a week or two.

 

Heck, people still think Mike Sanders was talented, in spite of him having a whopping NO good matches in the span of his career and some really average mic skills.

-=Mike

[Guest Choken One]

How?

 

The SOH character has been reduced to a Generic Hoss who does nice kicks and has funny hair.

 

Unless they let SOH be HIMSELF in the ring...and REALLY force the Devil's Advocate character...it might work...

[Guest Choken One]

SOH has always been good but here's where he went wrong..signing with WWE! See's here's where WWE figured out something.... He's tall, great body (fitness wise), could have a good monster/dark gimmick...but wait HE'S GOT TALENT! That was WWE's problem. WCW realized what they could have done with him and he was going to be one of WCW's major guys once it came back before WCW was bought out by Vince. So what happens whenever someone whose a big name comes from a differant company to WWE...they get sent down to OVW. SOH got sent down to OVW and was told not to use the swanton bomb making him into a complete ground worker. SOH could be great if WWE used him correctly but I don't think that'll ever happen. If he ever gets let go he should head down to NWA:TNA and make an impact there.

The same O'Haire who couldn't throw a punch, chop, kick, or clothesline to save his life in WCW (I recapped WCW at the time, so I watched all of it) is "talented"?

 

BTW, please note that Sean AGREED that he needed seasoning in OVW.

 

It was hard for young workers to not look decent in WCW at the end. They were bringing up anybody who had trained for a week or two.

 

Heck, people still think Mike Sanders was talented, in spite of him having a whopping NO good matches in the span of his career and some really average mic skills.

-=Mike

I agree he wasn't Benoit in the ring or anything but he certaintly wasn't horrible, I believe Palumbo is the only NBT who can actually work and let's not forget he throws the BEST damn punch in the business.

 

Mike Sanders, "Average" Mic Skills...I thought he was a great mic worker but I might be jaded considering he was flanked by 4 rookies and A whacko Ric Flair..but he held his own with Page, Nash and Jarrett. All pretty decent to good mic workers.

[Guest Anglesault]

SOH came into 2003 with BIG HYPE with the Promos where he challenged Authority, Religion, Morals, Sexuality with slick production values. It seemed perfect, a fresh new character along the lines of a devil's advocate who certaintly had a great look...

 

The Problem was, WWE wasn't sure how to book his character LIVE (or taped rather)...So they fumbled right away  and SOHs bad acting added to it, so he disapeared a few weeks as most assumed he was just retooling the gimmick. He showed up on House Shows working the gimmick to not so good results,

That's basically it in a nutshell.

 

They gave the guy what looked like a really cool gimmick, but when he tried it in front of a live crowd, for whatever reason, it was just a disaster. Granted, the scenarios given to him were bad, but his delivery was atrocious and he kept trying to throw in a catchphrase in all the wrong places.

 

And then he started to wrestle and more or less stink up the ring every night, and after a couple of months the plug was pulled.

 

Unless they let SOH be HIMSELF in the ring...and REALLY force the Devil's Advocate character...it might work...

 

He tried DA character, and he just simply isn't any good at it. Time to move on, Choken.

Edited February 29, 2004 by Anglesault

[Scroby 0]

hmmm never knew he agreed about going to OVW for a big of work. Thanks for correcting me on that. I always thought he was decent and I could see him being pushed as a monster.

[Guest Choken One]

I want to get back to the inital topic...

 

If there is ANY wrestler not being used right for Mania it's ROCK.

 

Why does he have to be thrown into the 7 month Old Foley/Orton feud?

 

I thought the WHOLE fucking purpose here was the BIG RETURN of the Foley to the ring and putting over Orton...Instead it becomes about Rock's return.

 

I'm not a big fan of the rock leaving for almost a year save for 1-3 apperences in between (doing nothing) and waltzing back two weeks before the show and taking a high profile slot.

 

I know he didn't want to do anything with Cena because he knows HHH will just ruin that anyways, But Rock could have been USED so much better then that...

 

They easily should have gone Rock/HBK...All they had to do was Have Shawn cut a "Pissed Off" promo for getting "screwed" out of a title shot rematch at WM and make a claim to being the best wrestler in WWE history and Rock pops out, calls Shawn on that claim saying he NEVER ever forgot about that SCM back on the FIRST ever Smackdown and that Shawn can't be the BEST, when he never beat the GREAT ONE.

 

Shawn does the SCM and challenges him to Mania.

 

Simple Set up...You use a Historic Flashback to set the roots and use the standard "GREAT ONE VS GREAT ONE" sell...

 

It allows Shawn to stay ready for his program with Benoit at Backlash, doesn't taint the WORLD TITLE match and Benoit's win. Rock doesn't have to try to make someone famous and doesn't have to worry about Triple Shitting on his hard work afterwards.

[Guest Anglesault]

I thought the WHOLE fucking purpose here was the BIG RETURN of the Foley to the ring and putting over Orton...Instead it becomes about Rock's return.

I think they realized that MSG would shit all over Orton beating Foley.

 

And as long as we're doing fantasy scenarios that can never happen, instead of Rock/HBK, they should have done Angle/HBK.

[Slayer 0]

Is there someone else who would have been better served with the DA character then, if SOH lacked the charisma and ability to carry it?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Ugh...Angle/HBK feud would have been horrible. Especially if it was face Angle vs. face HBK. THAT would have been the worst feud ever.