More on the battle over Edge

[Guest PowerPB13]

Hey, for a long time I got Raw and didn't get Smackdown because the St. Louis area didn't get UPN until about a year ago. I don't know the exact distribution of UPN, but anyone who's willing to pay for cable can see Raw, whereas getting Smackdown depends on your local network selection.

 

-Patrick

[Guest Loss]

Jericho doesn't need to increase his moveset. Wrestling is about story, not moves. As far as wrestling as a face, building sympathy for his comebacks, getting the crowd involved and his timing, he's better than most in the company. He doesn't need to do the double powerbomb anymore. It won't make his matches any better and it's a ridiculous move to try to pull off against bigger opponents. It doesn't really matter.

[Guest Loss]

The Lionsault doesn't look any worse than the Thesz press, People's Elbow, the Worm, Mr. Socko, the Stinkface or anything else.

[Guest Anglesault]

The Press doesn't pin anyone, and neither does the Stinkface.

 

However, Socko looks like it could choke someone out, and the elbow absolutely looks like it would hurt more than the Lionsault. The Lionsault just looks REALLY bad.

[Guest PowerPB13]

I would agree that Jericho needs some kind of different finisher. The Lionsault is fine(sometimes all a finisher needs is to look cool), but too many people have survived it for it to be see as a legit match-ender.

 

A submission hold kinda depends on how you build to it. Bret Hart worked the back to build to the Sharpshooter, and Jericho used to do the same to build to the Liontamer/Walls Of Jericho in WCW. If Jericho would wear down the opponent's back before doing the hold, it would be seen as more dangerous. The Crossface is different because it's been sold as an instantly-deadly hold...no matter what you do to Benoit during the match, if he can get it on you in mid-ring, you're tapping out.

 

I don't know exactly what would fit Jericho, especially face Jericho...

 

-Patrick

[Guest Loss]

RVD is a slightly different animal because he got over more on spots while Jericho got over more on his character. RVD is a little hindered by his inability to build sympathy on himself; he's more 'the cool guy' than 'the guy the fans identify with, live through and follow struggles of', not that Jericho necessarily embodies the best of that either. It's the difference between 'Wow, RVD did a Van Terminator all the way across the ring' and 'Wow, Jericho got screwed when he should have won that match.' One is emotion and the other is just visually pleasing.

[Guest Loss]

The Lionsault has not finished a match in a year, so I don't think you'd call it a finisher anymore. I do think Jericho needs a pinfall finish to complement the Walls. If wrestlers would take the Breakdown, it would work well. I could see him using the scorpion death drop.

[Just call me Dan 0]

Loss, you CANNOT deny that a finisher AT LEAST is vital. Jericho has the psychology down, but Eddie had to win it with the Frogsplash, just to use an example. His crab is getting pathetic and it is just not believeable anymore. Remember in these recent years (well in the last 10) when Hogan's legdrop was so miniscule compared to EVERYONE's finishers? People started kicking out. Everytime. No one wanted to see the match end with that. Hell, Rock won't really even finish ANY match with the elbow anymore besides the Hogan match at WMX8 (only because it was kind of a given legdrop vs elbow).

 

Look at how Hall pulled off the Stunner to Austin (to compensate for Austin not wanting to take the edge). Austin sold it like shit. Everytime. Could you really buy it, even though you knew that was the stunner, the same move that mean lights out for EVERYONE. No. And he didn't use it anymore when he moved on from Austin because it sucked. No one is taking the move correctly (sans Trish) and it is dragging his matches down.

 

You don't enjoy when a sleeper is built around a match all day when you KNOW it isn't going to be the end all be all. You get bored. the timing and the comeback are all there, but its a sleeper. It is not going to get the finish.

[Guest Loss]

Then the problem is more in the way the move is presented than it is the move itself. That I do agree with. Hall's stunner only looked bad because Austin didn't sell it properly, not because of the way Hall executed it.

 

That said, I wish WWE would get a way from the style that has taken over since the mid-90s where the finisher always gets the finish and focus more on wrestlers having signature moves. It creates more of an atmosphere where a match can end at any time. And yes, I'll concur that if they moved toward that style, Jericho would need at least one offensive move that could conceivably lead to an immediate pinfall and a new submission that isn't tarnished.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

and the elbow absolutely looks like it would hurt more than the Lionsault. The Lionsault just looks REALLY bad.

The People's Elbow!? Maybe it looks like it would hurt Rock's back, but it barely makes contact w/ his opponent's upper arm.

[Just call me Dan 0]

Then the problem is more in the way the move is presented than it is the move itself. That I do agree with. Hall's stunner only looked bad because Austin didn't sell it properly, not because of the way Hall executed it.

I was under the impression that it started looking that way because everyone was half assing and wouldnt take it properly, so it became second nature. If Jericho won't impose that people take it properly (IE Brock's new submission), he needs to move on. I could be wrong about it thoguh, it could be he choice.

[Guest Anglesault]

and the elbow absolutely looks like it would hurt more than the Lionsault. The Lionsault just looks REALLY bad.

The People's Elbow!? Maybe it looks like it would hurt Rock's back, but it barely makes contact w/ his opponent's upper arm.

The idea is that the point of the elbow is being driven into the guy's chest.

 

The lionsault is just a guy backflipping on to another guy from the second rope, not even the top.

[Guest Loss]

The idea is that the point of the elbow is being driven into the guy's chest.

 

The lionsault is just a guy backflipping on to another guy from the second rope, not even the top.

This is true, but if you look at the typical structure of Jericho's matches over the past 12 months, the Lionsault is more equivalent to Bret's Five Moves of Doom than it is a finishing move, which was the case earlier in his WWF run.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

and the elbow absolutely looks like it would hurt more than the Lionsault. The Lionsault just looks REALLY bad.

The People's Elbow!? Maybe it looks like it would hurt Rock's back, but it barely makes contact w/ his opponent's upper arm.

The idea is that the point of the elbow is being driven into the guy's chest.

 

The lionsault is just a guy backflipping on to another guy from the second rope, not even the top.

Problem is, the point of his elbow rarely makes contact with the chest. It always seems to his shoulder or upper arm.

[Scroby 0]

the other is just visually pleasing.

 

You just gotta let that roll of the tounge. Its a great saying.

 

Ok I'm going to have to get in on this discussion because I'm not really agreeing with a lot of people are saying. Now you don't have to agree with me, I'm not going to force you but I do just wanna get on the discussion.

 

1. RVD for Edge: It works, Starts fresh for both people

 

2. The 10 man trade 5 from SD! and 5 from Raw: Can't remember who posted that eariler but good idea. The only guy i'm 50/50 on is Jericho. Lance Strom is someone who could benefit since SD! is more of a techinal wrestling vibe than Raw's powerhouse wresting vibe (to me anyways)

 

3. Jericho being the new HBK: I would say he's more like a piper.

 

4. Jericho needing a new finisher: I say no he doesn't. I think he just needs one and doesn't need two. If he's going to use two, the Walls of Jericho should be his top one and the lionsault coming out every once in awhile.

 

Now this is where I know some people might argue with me on this. But the Walls of Jericho isn't a boston Crab. Here's how you can really tell. If you remember correctly Rick Martel used the Boston Crab as his finisher, he'd always sit down on the back of whoever he applied it to. Now the liontamer and the Walls of Jericho isn't the same due to the Liontamer, Jericho would walk over whoever he applied it to and would stand somewhat over them applying pressure to the back, legs, and neck. Now almost the same happens with the "walls of jericho" but instead of walking over, Jericho steps over and does not sit down, like Rick Martel did. He sorta does the squat in a sense, not like a Rock squat when Rock does the sharpshooter, quite horribly might I add, but....sorry I'm looking at the right way to put this....Jericho sorta bends his knees a little bit. Now since Jericho is in a differant stance, he's actually applying pressure to the lower back and legs of whomever he's applying it to.

 

There you all go..now i'm all valclimp...talk amoung yourselves.

[Guest Anglesault]

2. The 10 man trade 5 from SD! and 5 from Raw: Can't remember who posted that eariler but good idea. The only guy i'm 50/50 on is Jericho. Lance Strom is someone who could benefit since SD! is more of a techinal wrestling vibe

Would Storm become a cruiserweight?

[Scroby 0]

Not sure doesn't he weigh somewhere around 230 or 240? Let me go see.

[Scroby 0]

Just went to his site..it's got him down for 228. So most likely not.

[Guest Anglesault]

Not sure doesn't he weigh somewhere around 230 or 240? Let me go see.

So, I guess he'd be in a tag team.

[Guest wildpegasus]

If Jericho was wrestling anywhere else besides the WWE the Boston Crab would be the Walls of Jericho. It's the WWE, not Jericho. It's the same thing with Cena's DVD and Benoit's germans. All moves are toned down.

 

And the people's elbow is 10 times worse than the lionsault which is a believable finisher. The people's elbow is a joke. It's hit with the least possable impact because it's a comedy move. That's why the fans pop for it/That's why the Rock runs the ropes forever before hitting it. The same thing goes for the worm

[Scroby 0]

So, I guess he'd be in a tag team.

 

I wouldn't say tag team, I'd say a run in the U.S. Title divison. I'd say have him feud with Cena and Storm be heel. Storm says that Cena is part of whats wrong with America and he starts slapping Canadian stickers back on titles.

[Guest Anglesault]

No way.

 

Rap offs with the whitest man on earth?

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

I thought *you* were the whitest man on Earth?

[Toxxic 0]

Well until recently, Anglesault didn't know what "white" used in that way meant. So consider it an improvement.

 

Bring back the Liontamer. It rocked.

[Guest Anglesault]

I thought *you* were the whitest man on Earth?

Not true.

 

Well, at least I don't think so.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Hey, for a long time I got Raw and didn't get Smackdown because the St. Louis area didn't get UPN until about a year ago. I don't know the exact distribution of UPN, but anyone who's willing to pay for cable can see Raw, whereas getting Smackdown depends on your local network selection.

 

-Patrick

I spend much of my time in Central Florida when I'm not here in Ottawa going to university. We get UPN there, but not Spike. And yes we have cable.

[Guest Ray]

If Jericho was wrestling anywhere else besides the WWE the Boston Crab would be the Walls of Jericho. It's the WWE, not Jericho. It's the same thing with Cena's DVD and Benoit's germans. All moves are toned down.

That's exactly right. And also, his WWF opponents being heavyweights instead of cruiserweights means they're less flexible and can't take the move ('cept Benoit, who took it like a man ).

[CanadianChick 0]

If Jericho was wrestling anywhere else besides the WWE the Boston Crab would be the Walls of Jericho. It's the WWE, not Jericho. It's the same thing with Cena's DVD and Benoit's germans. All moves are toned down.

That's exactly right. And also, his WWF opponents being heavyweights instead of cruiserweights means they're less flexible and can't take the move ('cept Benoit, who took it like a man ).

Trish takes in like a man too. I loved it when Jericho used to put the Walls on her. Hell, Christian did a pretty nice job this past week.

[Scroby 0]

I think it would have better if Trish did the ol WWE "pass out from the pain" that would have made Christian look a hell of a lot worse.