IWGP Jr. Heavyweight

JoeDirt · April 15, 2004

Who is the current IWGP Jr. Heavyweight champion?

And who, in your opinion, are the two or three champs of all time?

April 15, 2004

I believe Heat holds the belt at the moment.

3 Best? Eh, Liger, obviously, and maybe Kanemoto and Ohtani?

April 15, 2004

Heat is the current champion, he won it from Jado (easy candidate for all time worst champion, next to Juventud Guerrera) back in December.

Lyger is the best champion without a question. Kanemoto is a candidate for one of the best (although I'm a little biased).

April 15, 2004

1. Liger - if anyone tries to tell you otherwise feel free to slap some sense into them.

2. Kanemoto

3. Ohtani

April 15, 2004

Best three....

1. Liger

2. Kanemoto

3. Ohtani

although I do like Ohtani better than Kanemoto, I would still say Kanemoto is better overall.......

EDIT: I should defend myself by saying that the three workers I chose were all workers that I've seen a large bundle of their work. Others I haven't seen enough on to put them on my list(ex: Takada).

April 15, 2004

What are we basing this on? Match quality? Elevating the title? Having the most defenses? Holding it for the most amount of time? Kinda hard to define "who's best" when everyone is using their own criteria.

Maybe Kanemoto qualifies if you're judging by the last two, but otherwise, him making the top 3 is really a joke. He's never been a very good worker, relying on high spots and no-selling to pop the crowd instead of working with what his opponent has to offer. Most of the good matches he's been in are credited to his opponent's ability to carry his spotty ass to a coherent match. I'd also suggest that his no-selling and spotty style contributed a lot to the downfall of the junior style in New Japan, though he shares that blame with plenty of others.

Shinjiro Ohtani was one of the best workers, junior or heavy, that New Japan has ever had, but all of his really good work took place when he was challenging for the belt, not defending it. His title reign is generally considered a failure, both because the matches weren't very good and because Ohtani wasn't able to play the role of reigning champion. As much as I like him, he probably belongs on a this list even less than Kanemoto, as his reign is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of time Kanemoto has held the belt.

And I think putting Jado as a contender for worste champion is a pretty big slap in the face, considering that puts him down there with Misayoshi Naruse and Tokimitsu Ishizawa/Kendo Ka Shin.

April 15, 2004

A pretty big slap but a deserved slap considering his non existent amount of decent matches that he had. Gedo and Jado can look good in multi man tag matches, but put them on their own in singles or straight tags and you see how bad they are. The Evil 3 were over (notice its the past tense, their heat is long gone), but out of the 3 of them Jado was the worst choice, but at least his reign served some sort of purpose, so he's not the WORST but he's in that category.

Naruse, would be another candidate for worst as well. Handed the title on a silver platter for doing jack shit. (Although he's turned into a decent worker and I'd have no problem with him getting the strap now). KaShin's first reign was a joke, as he just transitioned the title from Kanemoto to Lyger, his second one was a bigger joke as he was beating guys in 10 second matches to play off his PRIDE win.

Michrome · April 15, 2004

Kanemoto? Are you shitting me?

April 15, 2004

A pretty big slap but a deserved slap considering his non existent amount of decent matches that he had. Gedo and Jado can look good in multi man tag matches, but put them on their own in singles or straight tags and you see how bad they are. The Evil 3 were over (notice its the past tense, their heat is long gone), but out of the 3 of them Jado was the worst choice, but at least his reign served some sort of purpose, so he's not the WORST but he's in that category.

Agreed there. Just pointing out that the title has seen worse times than his reign.

Kanemoto? Are you shitting me?

That was my first reaction, too.

April 16, 2004

Jushin Liger, Nobuhiko Takada and Shinjiro Ohtani

Anyone who's seen them wrestle knows why

April 16, 2004

Jushin Liger, Nobuhiko Takada and Shinjiro Ohtani

Anyone who's seen them wrestle knows why

Lyger of course, Takada? I'll take your word, I have very limited NJPW from those days to really judge. Ohtani? As a candidate for best NJPW Jr of the 90's I'd agree in a heartbeat. But as a champion? I don't really recall his actual title reign that well aside from his 1/4/98 win over Dragon.

Looking at NJPW Juniors, you had Lyger having long title regins and then most of the other champions only had 3 or 4 month reigns with only a few defenses. In other words a huge gap between Lyger and the rest.

April 16, 2004

Kanemoto? Are you shitting me?

Hey there, try offering up some suggestions of your own instead of just shitting on other people's choices.

As for Kanemoto, since when has workrate been the end all be all of being a good champion? While he's not the greatest in the ring he's still an entertaining wrestler. Too many other guys had too short a reign or were early champs before I have any tapes.

April 16, 2004

As for Kanemoto, since when has workrate been the end all be all of being a good champion?

That depends on what you define as good champion. Like I said, no one defined what criteria we're judging under.

Personally, I think that if workrate were the be all end all, Kanemoto wouldn't do too poorly. He had a good workrate and busted out lots of flashy high spots in his matches. Then again, so did Sabu.

But, no one said workrate; I said quality of work, though. There is a difference. For instance, Kanemoto had good workrate, but couldn't (and from what I've heard, still can't) put together a good match on his own. This means that while most of his matches included the high spots crowds expect from juniors matches, they had no depth beyond that and gave the fans little else to care about aside from the crazy spots.

When you contrast his title defenses to Liger's, you see that Liger gave more credibility to the belt by working dramatic matches that drew the crowds in and had them going bonkers for the wrestlers, not just the spots. In that way, psych and storytelling are important to being a good champion.

While he's not the greatest in the ring he's still an entertaining wrestler.

He's really nothing compared to others who've held the belt. "Entertaining" doesn't really hold up when you're being compared to Hase, Takada, Koshinaka, Sano, Benoit, Samurai, Ultimo, and Sasuke.

Too many other guys had too short a reign or were early champs before I have any tapes.

So now the length of the reign is a factor? It's also telling that you don't have tapes of earlier reigns, since I can't see how else Kanemoto could make the cut.

April 16, 2004

Lyger of course, Takada? I'll take your word, I have very limited NJPW from those days to really judge.

I have a tape covering the Takada/Koshinaka feud over the title from 86-87 that Wolverine pimped on here a while back, and it's a great buy. Tabe has it, in great quality.

The first two matches are title defenses by Takada, and both of them are fantastic matches. They're nothing like the juniors style matches that you see in the nineties, as they use body part psychology and submision holds as near falls late in the match, along with high end moves (for the time period) like the Tombstone , Dragon Suplexes, Superplex, etc.

If we're judging from match quality alone, those two defenses might be enough for me to put Takada in my top three, as they're some of the best juniors matches I've seen.

Ohtani? As a candidate for best NJPW Jr of the 90's I'd agree in a heartbeat. But as a champion? I don't really recall his actual title reign that well aside from his 1/4/98 win over Dragon.

*nod* If the list was "best wrestler to have ever held the title" then Ohtani would qualify, but his run wasn't worthwhile.

Looking at NJPW Juniors, you had Lyger having long title regins and then most of the other champions only had 3 or 4 month reigns with only a few defenses. In other words a huge gap between Lyger and the rest.

In the nineties, that's true, but if we're talking about the entire history of te belt we also have to factor in Koshinaka, who had three runs with the belt, the longest of which lasted almost a year.

April 16, 2004

Kanemoto is the guy people love to complain about. He's underrated.

April 16, 2004

I haven't bought anything before 91 yet. I just haven't wanted to venture into the 80s realm of puro yet. I don't really have the disposable income to get a ton of stuff right now.

But to me at least yes, length factors in. It's hard to judge a 1x champ who didn't survive his 1st or 2nd defense compared to someone with multiple reigns.

Hase has this really nasty habit of not being on anything I order for some reason. And you really can't be serious about even considering BUTT Guy as one of the better Jr. champs. I've never seen anything out of the occasional tag where he's anywhere near a good match. Maybe it's the fact that his ass is his weapon of choice. Benoit would be an excellent choice. Ultimo and Sasuke are also excellent choices.

Internet Warfare · April 16, 2004

My Favorites- Jushin Liger, Koji Kanemoto, Minoru Tanaka?

April 16, 2004

I haven't bought anything before 91 yet. I just haven't wanted to venture into the 80s realm of puro yet. I don't really have the disposable income to get a ton of stuff right now.

That's understandable. There's tons of stuff from the nineties I haven't seen yet, so I'm still not buying all that much eighties matches either.

But to me at least yes, length factors in. It's hard to judge a 1x champ who didn't survive his 1st or 2nd defense compared to someone with multiple reigns.

Makes sense. However, there are plenty of guys in the history of the belt who had title runs in the 3-5 month range that were fantastic workers. Personally, I would take quality over quantity in this case and drop Kanemoto, who's held more times than anyone besides Liger.

Hase has this really nasty habit of not being on anything I order for some reason.

He was a very good worker, both as a junior and as a heavyweight. There should be some of him in the Matches to Check Out thread.

And you really can't be serious about even considering BUTT Guy as one of the better Jr. champs.

No, I'm pretty sure that I'm serious. Are you sure you're willing to claim that he doesn't deserve it when you haven't seen any of his work from that period?

I've never seen anything out of the occasional tag where he's anywhere near a good match. Maybe it's the fact that his ass is his weapon of choice.

I don't know what you've seen, but his eighties work that I've seen is very good. The afformentioned series with Takada is exceptional, and his 12/88 match with Keichi Yamada is really good, too. Kosh as champ seemed like a perfect fit to me, because he had a cocky edge to him that said "I'm the best, and you've got no place trying to beat me."

And like I said before, if we're considering longevity as champion, Kosh held the belt more than anyone before Liger came along, so he would have to be considered.

Benoit would be an excellent choice. Ultimo and Sasuke are also excellent choices.

I don't know about Benoit. He held the strap for three months in 1990, well before his peak as a worker. Ultimo had a three months reign from '96-97, but I haven't seen any of his defenses. Sasuke's lasted for six months and included the J*Crown unification, so he's a strong candidate.

April 16, 2004

I thought this might be helpful for some of the discussion in this thread. It's the best I could find......

I.W.G.P JUNIOR HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE HISTORY

1.Shiro Koshinaka

02/06/86-Tokyo

15:22

Shiro Koshinaka defeated The Cobra, who had vacated the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA) World and World Wrestling Federation (WWF) Junior Heavyweight Titles in the previous year, in tournament final.

2.Nobuhiko Takada

05/19/86-Tokyo

3.Shiro Koshinaka (2)

09/15/86-Fukuoka

Koshinaka vacated the title in July of 1987 because of an injury.

4.Kuniaki Kobayashi

08/20/87-Fukuoka

Kuniaki Kabayashi defeated Nobuhiko Takada in tournament final.

5.Hiroshi Hase

12/27/87-Tokyo

17:03

6.Owen Hart

05/27/88-Sendai

13:07

7.Shiro Koshinaka(3)

06/24/88-Osaka

14:07

8.Hiroshi Hase (2)

03/16/89-Yokohama

9.Jushin Liger

05/25/89-Osaka