Fight breaks out between McCain and Lautenberg

[Guest thebigjig]

Just kidding... interesting piece of news though

 

Defending Kerry, senator blasts 'chickenhawks'

 

Lautenberg criticizes Cheney for questioning record

 

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 Posted: 2:21 PM EDT (1821 GMT)

 

 

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. Sen. Frank Lautenberg on Wednesday called Vice President Dick Cheney "the lead chickenhawk" against Sen. John Kerry and criticized other Republicans for questioning the Democratic presidential contender's military credentials.

 

But Sen. John McCain, a decorated war hero and former prisoner of war, scolded Lautenberg for attacking the Bush administration during the Iraq conflict and said it was time to "declare that the Vietnam War is over."

 

In a scathing speech on the Senate floor, Lautenberg, D-New Jersey, said that he did not think politicians should be judged by whether they had military service but added that "when those who didn't serve attack the heroism of those who did, I find it particularly offensive."

 

Lautenberg pointed to a poster with a drawing of a chicken in a military uniform defining a chickenhawk as "a person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it."

 

"They shriek like a hawk, but they have the backbone of the chicken," he said.

 

"The lead chickenhawk against Sen. Kerry [is] the vice president of the United States, Vice President Cheney," Lautenberg said. "He was in Missouri this week claiming that Sen. Kerry was not up to the job of protecting this nation. What nerve. Where was Dick Cheney when that war was going on?"

 

Lautenberg chastised members of the Bush administration for being overly eager to go to war when they had not been willing to fight themselves. He quoted a Cheney interview from the 1980s that he had "other priorities" in the '60s than military service.

 

In a speech Monday at Westminster College in Fulton, Missouri, Cheney attacked Kerry's votes in the Senate to cut weapons programs, his opposition to the 1991 Persian Gulf War and recent comments that the war on terror should not be thought of primarily as a military operation.

 

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Tuesday that Cheney criticized Kerry on policy issues and said that "no one is questioning his military service."

 

But Lautenberg compared Cheney's remarks with the GOP campaign against former Sen. Max Cleland, a Georgia Democrat whose defeat in 2002 has been a sore spot to many in his party.

 

"Max Cleland lost three limbs in Vietnam and they shamed him so, that he was pushed out of office because he was portrayed as weak on defense. Where do they come off with that kind of stuff?" he said.

 

He also criticized President Bush for declaring an end to major combat operations in Iraq on May 1, 2003.

 

He showed a picture of Bush giving a speech on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln with the banner "Mission Accomplished" in the background.

 

"The mission accomplished was to get a picture that could be used in an election campaign," Lautenberg said.

 

Since that speech, 587 U.S. troops have died in Iraq, including 415 from hostile fire.

 

Lautenberg also criticized the president for saying "bring 'em on" to Iraqi insurgents.

 

"I served in Europe in World War II," he said. "The last thing I wanted to hear from my commander in chief, or my local commander, is dare the enemy to launch attacks against us."

 

McCain, the next senator to speak, said he had planned to discuss an Internet tax moratorium bill but that he felt he needed to address Lautenberg's remarks.

 

He said reasonable differences of opinion existed about the handling of the Iraq war but that the Senate should focus on making the operation successful.

 

"What are we doing on the floor of the Senate? We're attacking the president's credentials because of his service that ended ... more than 30 years ago," McCain said. "I think that's wrong. I wish we'd stop it. I wish we'd just stop, at least until the fighting in Iraq is over with."

 

He called for a bipartisan approach to "seeing this thing through because we cannot afford to fail."

 

"At least could we declare that the Vietnam War is over and have a cease-fire and agree that both candidates -- the president of the United States and Sen. Kerry served honorably -- end of story? Now let's focus our attention on the conflict that's taking place in Iraq, that is taking American lives as I speak on this floor," he said.

[Guest MikeSC]

Just kidding... interesting piece of news though

 

Defending Kerry, senator blasts 'chickenhawks'

 

Lautenberg criticizes Cheney for questioning record

 

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 Posted: 2:21 PM EDT (1821 GMT)

 

 

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. Sen. Frank Lautenberg on Wednesday called Vice President Dick Cheney "the lead chickenhawk" against Sen. John Kerry and criticized other Republicans for questioning the Democratic presidential contender's military credentials.

 

But Sen. John McCain, a decorated war hero and former prisoner of war, scolded Lautenberg for attacking the Bush administration during the Iraq conflict and said it was time to "declare that the Vietnam War is over."

 

In a scathing speech on the Senate floor, Lautenberg, D-New Jersey, said that he did not think politicians should be judged by whether they had military service but added that "when those who didn't serve attack the heroism of those who did, I find it particularly offensive."

 

Lautenberg pointed to a poster with a drawing of a chicken in a military uniform defining a chickenhawk as "a person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it."

 

"They shriek like a hawk, but they have the backbone of the chicken," he said.

 

"The lead chickenhawk against Sen. Kerry [is] the vice president of the United States, Vice President Cheney," Lautenberg said. "He was in Missouri this week claiming that Sen. Kerry was not up to the job of protecting this nation. What nerve. Where was Dick Cheney when that war was going on?"

 

Lautenberg chastised members of the Bush administration for being overly eager to go to war when they had not been willing to fight themselves. He quoted a Cheney interview from the 1980s that he had "other priorities" in the '60s than military service.

 

In a speech Monday at Westminster College in Fulton, Missouri, Cheney attacked Kerry's votes in the Senate to cut weapons programs, his opposition to the 1991 Persian Gulf War and recent comments that the war on terror should not be thought of primarily as a military operation.

 

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Tuesday that Cheney criticized Kerry on policy issues and said that "no one is questioning his military service."

 

But Lautenberg compared Cheney's remarks with the GOP campaign against former Sen. Max Cleland, a Georgia Democrat whose defeat in 2002 has been a sore spot to many in his party.

 

"Max Cleland lost three limbs in Vietnam and they shamed him so, that he was pushed out of office because he was portrayed as weak on defense. Where do they come off with that kind of stuff?" he said.

 

He also criticized President Bush for declaring an end to major combat operations in Iraq on May 1, 2003.

 

He showed a picture of Bush giving a speech on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln with the banner "Mission Accomplished" in the background.

 

"The mission accomplished was to get a picture that could be used in an election campaign," Lautenberg said.

 

Since that speech, 587 U.S. troops have died in Iraq, including 415 from hostile fire.

 

Lautenberg also criticized the president for saying "bring 'em on" to Iraqi insurgents.

 

"I served in Europe in World War II," he said. "The last thing I wanted to hear from my commander in chief, or my local commander, is dare the enemy to launch attacks against us."

 

McCain, the next senator to speak, said he had planned to discuss an Internet tax moratorium bill but that he felt he needed to address Lautenberg's remarks.

 

He said reasonable differences of opinion existed about the handling of the Iraq war but that the Senate should focus on making the operation successful.

 

"What are we doing on the floor of the Senate? We're attacking the president's credentials because of his service that ended ... more than 30 years ago," McCain said. "I think that's wrong. I wish we'd stop it. I wish we'd just stop, at least until the fighting in Iraq is over with."

 

He called for a bipartisan approach to "seeing this thing through because we cannot afford to fail."

 

"At least could we declare that the Vietnam War is over and have a cease-fire and agree that both candidates -- the president of the United States and Sen. Kerry served honorably -- end of story? Now let's focus our attention on the conflict that's taking place in Iraq, that is taking American lives as I speak on this floor," he said.

"Sen. Lautenberg: The Vietnam War Sholdn't Be an Issue --- As Long as Those Draft-Dodging Republicans Leave Our War Hero Alone"

 

Man, it's like the Dems are copying George Bush's ULTRA-successful campaign strategy of 1992. Heck, if Kerry falls down during a campaign appearance, we can assume he's copying Dole, too.

 

I find it ironic that the Dems beat the red herring known as the Cleeland loss to this day.

-=Mike

...Final time Dems: You can serve in a war and STILL be weak on defense

[Guest thebigjig]

Oh, I agree... war heroism has NOTHING to do with the voting record, and I think the average voter sees this... and it's going to bite the Dems in the ass if they continue to overplay it

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Hell, the Republicans brought it up. Way to question a guy who had three purple hearts when your candidate is a suspected AWOL. That's intelligent campaigning there.

[Guest thebigjig]

having three purple hearts from 30 + years ago has NOTHING to do with your voting record as a senator. Kerrys record is fair game

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Sure it is. And his comments about the war are fair game, too.

 

But in reality, this whole "Vietnam: IS HE A PATRIOT OR NOT?!?" shit began when Bush's campaign chief challenged him on the purple hearts. Brilliant stuff there.

[Guest thebigjig]

well obviously thats stupid... but lets be fair. Democrats have been questioning Bush's National Guard stuff for years. Only recently has it become a mainstream news attraction... I knew about the NG stuff two years ago... I didnt care then, and I dont care now

[Guest MikeSC]

Sure it is. And his comments about the war are fair game, too.

 

But in reality, this whole "Vietnam: IS HE A PATRIOT OR NOT?!?" shit began when Bush's campaign chief challenged him on the purple hearts. Brilliant stuff there.

Hell, the Republicans brought it up.

Ah, so Kerry's voting record IS connected to his military service? Wow.

Way to question a guy who had three purple hearts when your candidate is a suspected AWOL.

"The left tends to ignore the extremes, while the right treats their extremes with some credibility" --- Tyler McClelland.

Sure it is. And his comments about the war are fair game, too.

 

But in reality, this whole "Vietnam: IS HE A PATRIOT OR NOT?!?" shit began when Bush's campaign chief challenged him on the purple hearts. Brilliant stuff there.

No, it started when Kerry's hacks invented the AWOL issue about Bush out of thin air.

 

If they are so keen on questioning Bush's service (especially when Kerry said it shouldn't be an issue --- until he decided it WAS one this week), then Kerry's should ALSO be fair game.

 

His superior officer has said that Kerry wasn't even injured when he received one of his Hearts.

-=Mike

[Guest Cerebus]

Hell, the Republicans brought it up.

Uh-huh.

Bush dismisses report he skipped Air National Guard service

 

By Kevin Flower/CNN

 

May 24, 2000

Web posted at: 9:46 a.m. EDT (1346 GMT)

 

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Texas Gov. George W. Bush on Tuesday dismissed a newspaper report suggesting he had not fulfilled his Texas Air National Guard service.

 

"I spent my time and I went to the Guard. It's just not true. I did the duty necessary...any allegations other than that are simply not true," Bush said.

 

An article in Tuesday's Boston Globe reports a one-year gap in Bush 's service record with the Texas Air National Guard, with no record of any drill activity from May 1972 to April 1973. Attendance at regular drills was a requirement of part-time Air National Guard members.

 

Bush joined the Air National Air Guard as a pilot in 1968 and served the first four years of his service based in Houston. In 1972, he moved to Alabama to work on the U.S. Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, where he said he fulfilled his guard service locally on weekends. Upon leaving the campaign, Bush moved back to Houston where he completed the remainder of his six-year Air National Guard commitment.

 

Responding to the Globe's report that his Alabama base commander had no recollection of Bush ever showing for drills, the governor said "I pulled duty in Alabama and I read the comments and the guy said he didn't remember me. That's 27 years ago, but I remember being there."

 

Asked about his Air National Guard attendance record, Bush told reporters it was "spotty attendance but I did the duty necessary... I did the time that was required in the Guard."

 

Bush acknowledged that he was granted special permission to fulfill part of his Guard service in Alabama and that he was also given an early release to attend Harvard Business School, but denied that it was due to any favoritism because of his father's prominence.

[Guest thebigjig]

Kerry's guys didnt invent anything... the national guard, AWOL issue has been around for a while, just not in the spotlight

[Justice 0]

Sure it is. And his comments about the war are fair game, too.

 

But in reality, this whole "Vietnam: IS HE A PATRIOT OR NOT?!?" shit began when Bush's campaign chief challenged him on the purple hearts. Brilliant stuff there.

To be honest, Purple Hearts can go from life-threatening injuries to small scratches. 3 Purple Hearts are only things of circumstance, not of leadership. Personally, though, I found how he got his Silver Stars to be one of the weirdest stories I've ever heard...

[Guest MikeSC]

Kerry's guys didnt invent anything... the national guard, AWOL issue has been around for a while, just not in the spotlight

Bush has evidence he was there --- and they ignore the FOUR YEARS OF INTENSIVE SERVICE before the "questionable year" (the one where the plane he was trained on was being shifted out of military use).

-=Mike

[Guest Cerebus]

Kerry's guys didnt invent anything... the national guard, AWOL issue has been around for a while, just not in the spotlight

The medals issue were around since 71 and he discussed them in 1986 with the Boston Globe.

[Guest thebigjig]

Kerry's guys didnt invent anything... the national guard, AWOL issue has been around for a while, just not in the spotlight

Bush has evidence he was there --- and they ignore the FOUR YEARS OF INTENSIVE SERVICE before the "questionable year" (the one where the plane he was trained on was being shifted out of military use).

-=Mike

hey, I never said anything about what I believed, I was just saying it's been a debated issue for a while

[Guest thebigjig]

But this works on both sides of the isle... the Republicans should not be bringing up Kerry's vietnam protesting days... it's irrelevant, and this whole week has been ridiculous with the arguing over whats the difference between a ribbon and a medal and both sides sniping at each other over something that happened 30 years ago...it's not just the democrats that are looking ridiculously stupid. The republicans aren't looking all that great either.

 

There are plenty of issues to debate... and its demeaning and an insult to the voters intelligence that we're revisiting Vietnam in 2004

[Firestarter 0]

Kerry on Meet the Press:

 

"Never has the United States of America been held in as low a regard internationally - and polls have shown this - as we are today. We're not trusted and this administration is not liked."

 

Maybe we're liked, but not well-liked...

[Guest MikeSC]

But this works on both sides of the isle... the Republicans should not be bringing up Kerry's vietnam protesting days... it's irrelevant, and this whole week has been ridiculous with the arguing over whats the difference between a ribbon and a medal and both sides sniping at each other over something that happened 30 years ago...it's not just the democrats that are looking ridiculously stupid. The republicans aren't looking all that great either.

 

There are plenty of issues to debate... and its demeaning and an insult to the voters intelligence that we're revisiting Vietnam in 2004

Umm, jig, the GOP didn't bring up the medals flap. That was ABC, the Boston Globe, and I believe one other paper not known for being conservative.

 

If Kerry never mentioned Vietnam, it would be a non-issue. But when he takes criticism of his voting record as bashing his military service (all one month of it), then it's open season.

-=Mike

[Guest Razor Roman]

I hate Senator Lautenberg. Makes me even more embarassed to tell people I'm from NJ.

 

But... if they ever did a live-action remake movie of the Simpsons...

 

 

 

Excellent.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Only reason he's there is because the NJ Supreme Court disregarded the law and allowed him to run...

[Guest Razor Roman]

Only reason he's there is because the NJ Supreme Court disregarded the law and allowed him to run...

I was a volunteer for and supporter of Doug Forrester, but the guy had no charisma. He was like someone doing a bad Nixon impression. And every Republican that loses in NJ loses because they try to act like Democrats. Yet, the Democrats continually win by pretending to be more conservative than they really are. I'll never understand the votes in my state.

 

Unfortunately, Lautenberg is there is because the people of NJ voted for him.

 

Yes, the court put him on the ballot. And Yes, in my opinion it was illegal and wrong and terrible. I just don't understand how the people voted for him.

 

We are the final "check" in the system of checks and balances. So, I do not agree with you that the only reason he is there because of the NJ supreme court. They're how he got on the ballot. The people are the ones who really put him there.

[Guest thebigjig]

But this works on both sides of the isle... the Republicans should not be bringing up Kerry's vietnam protesting days... it's irrelevant, and this whole week has been ridiculous with the arguing over whats the difference between a ribbon and a medal and both sides sniping at each other over something that happened 30 years ago...it's not just the democrats that are looking ridiculously stupid. The republicans aren't looking all that great either.

 

There are plenty of issues to debate... and its demeaning and an insult to the voters intelligence that we're revisiting Vietnam in 2004

Umm, jig, the GOP didn't bring up the medals flap. That was ABC, the Boston Globe, and I believe one other paper not known for being conservative.

 

If Kerry never mentioned Vietnam, it would be a non-issue. But when he takes criticism of his voting record as bashing his military service (all one month of it), then it's open season.

-=Mike

oh come on! This is ridiculous... it doesnt matter WHO brought it up! What matters is that the GOP DID run with it. And now you're buying into the finger pointing... instead of actually *gasp* admitting that maybe, just maybe the GOP had a little fault in this also, you're pointing the finger at the Dems saying "well THEY started it!"

 

And I'm sorry, but if Kerry had never sewen his "I fought in Vietnam" patch on his sleeve, I have a feeling the GOP would STILL have used his protesting days to there advantage just like they used it with Clinton back in 92

[RepoMan 0]

I think this is one of the stupidest deabtes of all time, but Lautenberg explaining the Chickenhawk diagram was the funniest thing to ever happen in the Senate.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Unfortunately, Lautenberg is there is because the people of NJ voted for him.

 

Yes, the court put him on the ballot. And Yes, in my opinion it was illegal and wrong and terrible. I just don't understand how the people voted for him.

I see your point about the voters having the "final say" -- that's pretty much sums up my opinion on the term limits issue. However, he should have never been eligible in the first place, but thanks to an extremist court, he was. That's all...

[Guest MikeSC]

oh come on! This is ridiculous... it doesnt matter WHO brought it up! What matters is that the GOP DID run with it. And now you're buying into the finger pointing... instead of actually *gasp* admitting that maybe, just maybe the GOP had a little fault in this also, you're pointing the finger at the Dems saying "well THEY started it!"

 

And I'm sorry, but if Kerry had never sewen his "I fought in Vietnam" patch on his sleeve, I have a feeling the GOP would STILL have used his protesting days to there advantage just like they used it with Clinton back in 92

The GOP didn't run with it. They haven't really mentioned it AT ALL. This is ALL the media up to this point. The GOP, cleverly enough, has decided to sit back and let Kerry flounder for a while and just perpetuate his own stereotype at this point.

 

They never had a huge problem with Clinton protesting in 1992 --- they had a problem with him doing it in England. And, odds are, they would have never mentioned it, considering how utterly successful it was with Clinton in the past.

 

I just wish Kerry maintained consistency here.

-=Mike

[Guest Razor Roman]

I see your point about the voters having the "final say" -- that's pretty much sums up my opinion on the term limits issue. However, he should have never been eligible in the first place, but thanks to an extremist court, he was. That's all...

I agree the court was extreme in that one - I also don't understand why Christie Whitman replaced retiring Democrat judges with new Democrat judges (appointed for life!)

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Because she's a RINO!

 

*ducks for cover...*