WWE Title vs. The World Heavywieght Title

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

The RAW World Title > SD World Title in my books. If not for the qualityu of matches produced, but the challengers.

 

SD World Title: HARDCORE HOLLY, BIG SHOW, BRADSHAW, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena

 

Raw World Title: Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Kane, Edge, and possibly Shelton Benjamin & Randy Orton in coming months.

 

Raw has always had a wider range of challengers, while SD was stuck w/ Brock/Taker/Show/Angle for about 7 months.

[reign 0]

Point taken but I don't see how the WWE title can still be considered the unified title...it certainly is not the Unidisputed Title that the new belt(the one Eddie wears) symbolized because once Raw was not given the option of challenging for the title and re-established the World Heavyweight Championship, that effectively killed the Undisputed Championship because you can't be Undisputed if there is another World Champion in the company...and furthermore the title that was brought back for HHH carries the same name..the World Championship.. so in my humble opinion it is the same belt that the Rock carried after WCW was finally put out its misery...look at it this way...the titles were unified...Big Gold Belt and the Big WWF Belt with the wings on it..the two belts that HHH last carried...then came the Undisputed Title(the new belt)..and after the brand split it was agreed that the champ would defend on both shows...when this agreement was broken the title was no longer recognized as Undisputed and reverted back to the WWF(soon WWE) title and the big gold belt was recognized AGAIN as the World Championship...I guess we may never no unless the WWE made a specific statement about the two titles...does anybody have a copy of Bischoffs speech from that RAW?

[Slickster 0]

He won the #1 contenders match the week prior to SSlam, meaning he SHOULD have gotten the title shot at the belt had Brock not decided to stop defending it on RAW. Number-one contenders are usually awarded the title when champions refuse to defend their titles, so HHH was given the World/WCW Title. End of story.

No, not end of story. Yes, he got a belt for being no.1 contender and not getting a title shot, but I'm arguing that he didn't get the actual WCW title, he got a brand new title. Brock held the Unified title, switched brands, and now Eddie has that Unified title.

Yeah dude, you're damn right. Why people can't understand that is beyond me. It was never said that TripleH took one half of the Unified title, yet some assume he did. The confusion come from the fact that the World Heavyweight title is the old WCW big gold belt but get a hint brothers !

Because on Confidential that week (and on last week's final episode) they established that Hogan/Flair/Sting et al. were all great 'World Heavyweight Champons,' indicating that Benoit's belt has a lineage going back to WCW. It was never stated outright on WWE TV, but get a hint brother!!

[Guest jm29195]

The wwe does acknowledge the lineage of the Raw belt, on the Unforgiven 2002 ppv (HHH's first ppv defence against RVD) they had a video montage with guys like Sting, Goldberg, Hogan, Luger, and Flair all in it.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

The wwe does acknowledge the lineage of the Raw belt, on the Unforgiven 2002 ppv (HHH's first ppv defence against RVD) they had a video montage with guys like Sting, Goldberg, Hogan, Luger, and Flair all in it.

THEN they did acknowledge it.

 

However, how come during his build-up for his WrestleMania XIX match against Booker T, HHH made it seem like the World Heavyweight Championship was a totally different title belt than the WCW Championship?

 

Or how they never acknowledged that Booker, Goldberg, and Benoit had that belt in the past when it was the WCW title belt when they each had their wars against HHH?

 

Just a thought I'd like to point out.

[reign 0]

I think HHH was simply refering to Booker T's reign as a WCW champion which is NOT what the World Heavyweight Title is although the actual belt is the same(or of similair design)...Benoit never held the World Title until he won at Mania...I know that in the mid-90's the big gold belt was used as the WCW International Heavyweight title but at any time prior to the Sting/Flair matchup that unified the two titles in WCW was the big gold belt ever called the World Heavyweight Championship?

[Guest jm29195]

However, how come during his build-up for his WrestleMania XIX match against Booker T, HHH made it seem like the World Heavyweight Championship was a totally different title belt than the WCW Championship?

 

Was that the promo on raw when HHH said Booker T championed WCW into the ground?

[reign 0]

Yep..pretty much all of his promos were about Booker either being Champion of a terrible company or him being a criminal..and it didn't help when Jim Ross called WCW a second rate promotion too just because "Ah used tah work there and bah gawd it was a joke"...yeah...same joke that whipped your sorry asses for a few years JR...sometimes Vince and his crew are just incredible in their stupidity when it comes to the history of the "business" that they seem to love so much

[reign 0]

However, how come during his build-up for his WrestleMania XIX match against Booker T, HHH made it seem like the World Heavyweight Championship was a totally different title belt than the WCW Championship?

 

Was that the promo on raw when HHH said Booker T championed WCW into the ground?

By the way that shot of HHH Pedigreeing that dude is way sick!

[Guest jm29195]

By the way that shot of HHH Pedigreeing that dude is way sick!

 

cheers!

 

 

That really did nothing but harm for Booker T, that sort of promo is only positive if the face, well, WINS the big blow off match- especially as it was at WM19- look at Booker T's career since, he's done nothing!

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

They NEVER 'gave up' half of the title; it was taken from them.

 

Remember, they only controlled 1/2 of the title (it was shared by and competed for by both brands).

 

Bischoff broke off his half of this arrangement and took back half of the title; he chose the WCW half of the title (as he was kinda partial to it).

 

Wrong. Bischoff never did take it back. He came up with a completely new title that happened to be the same physical belt as the old WCW Championship. That's all it is. The lineage of the WCW World Title is in Eddy's belt. They could have easily done the above like you said, but they didn't.

[reign 0]

I don't agree...WCW died at SS and the old title was renamed the World Heavyweight Championship...not the WCW title..it wasn't called that when Jericho unified the two titles...when Bischoff brought the belt back he specifically said he was giving the belt to the number one contender and last man who held that title who was HHH...and he again called the title by its former name...the World Heavyweight Championship...if the lineage still exists then it is in the belt currently around the waist of Chris Benoit

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I don't agree...WCW died at SS and the old title was renamed the World Heavyweight Championship...not the WCW title..it wasn't called that when Jericho unified the two titles...when Bischoff brought the belt back he specifically said he was giving the belt to the number one contender and last man who held that title who was HHH...and he again called the title by its former name...the World Heavyweight Championship...if the lineage still exists then it is in the belt currently around the waist of Chris Benoit

He did all of that except take the title back from the Undisputed Championship. He created a new title, once again called it the World Heavyweight Championship, and brought back the old belt, but he never took back his portion of the Undisputed Championship. This was made quite clear at the time. Brock, since there was a new title on RAW, simply went back to being called the WWE Champion, but kept the actual Undisputed Title. The Undisputed Championship is still around the waist of Eddy Guerrero. Benoit's belt was created in September 2002, and has the same name and actual belt as the old World Heavyweight Championship held by the Rock.

 

Not that it matters much. I'm all for the idea that a title only means as much as how it is being used currently or in the immediate past. But from a historical perspective, Eddy has the more valuable title.

[Guest Askewniverse]

I know that in the mid-90's the big gold belt was used as the WCW International Heavyweight title but at any time prior to the Sting/Flair matchup that unified the two titles in WCW was the big gold belt ever called the World Heavyweight Championship?

Note: this is all from memory, so feel free to correct me.

 

WCW used to be an affiliate of the NWA. The Big Gold Belt was the NWA World Title. In January 1991, Flair regains the NWA World Title by beating Sting in East Rutherford, NJ. Flair is also recognized as the first WCW World Champion. Theoretically, Flair was recognized as both the NWA World Champion and the WCW World Champion.

 

In July 1991, Flair quits WCW. WCW strips him of the WCW World Title. Lex Luger beats Barry Windham at The Great American Bash to win the vacant WCW World Title. The NWA continues to recognize Flair as the NWA World Champion. In September, the NWA strips Flair of the NWA World Title. In 1992, Masahiro Chono beats Rick Rude in the finals of a tournament for the vacant NWA World Title.

 

Shortly after returning to WCW in 1993, Flair wins the NWA World Title by beating Barry Windham at Beach Blast. For the record, Vader is the WCW World Champion at this point.

 

In September 1993, WCW withdraws from the NWA. The NWA no longer recognizes Flair as the NWA World Champion. However, WCW still possess the physical Big Gold Belt, which is now dubbed the "International World Title." For all intents and purposes, the International World Title didn't mean anything because it was a made-up title. The whole International World Title nonsense finally comes to an end when Flair beats Sting to unify the WCW World Title and the International World Title. From that point on, WCW starts to use the Big Gold Belt as the (unified) WCW World Title.

[DokDoyle 0]

Why does everyone assume that smackdown would have to agree to give anything up? When it comes to Undisputed titles in boxing, different federations can take ahold of their individual titles at any time if other's fall out of political favor with them.

 

That's what happened here. Smackdown got one over on RAW by signing the undisputed champ to an exclusive deal. RAW didn't agree with that, and decided not to allow their world championship (the already established World Heavyweight Championship) to be defended on the competition's show. To stop this, they pulled their half of the Undisputed title, which includes the lineage.

 

So World Heavyweight Title = WCW title (back to 1991 and the NWA split)

 

Edit: Spelling

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

What officially made the World Heavyweight championship RAW's half of the Undisputed title before September 2002? Absolutely nothing.

[reign 0]

I don't agree...WCW died at SS and the old title was renamed the World Heavyweight Championship...not the WCW title..it wasn't called that when Jericho unified the two titles...when Bischoff brought the belt back he specifically said he was giving the belt to the number one contender and last man who held that title who was HHH...and he again called the title by its former name...the World Heavyweight Championship...if the lineage still exists then it is in the belt currently around the waist of Chris Benoit

He did all of that except take the title back from the Undisputed Championship. He created a new title, once again called it the World Heavyweight Championship, and brought back the old belt, but he never took back his portion of the Undisputed Championship. This was made quite clear at the time. Brock, since there was a new title on RAW, simply went back to being called the WWE Champion, but kept the actual Undisputed Title. The Undisputed Championship is still around the waist of Eddy Guerrero. Benoit's belt was created in September 2002, and has the same name and actual belt as the old World Heavyweight Championship held by the Rock.

 

Not that it matters much. I'm all for the idea that a title only means as much as how it is being used currently or in the immediate past. But from a historical perspective, Eddy has the more valuable title.

I'm in agreement on that one...it could be the WWA title on Benoit right now and the title would still mean more because of the quality of challengers and matches..I know that the belt on SD! is the old WWE(F) title but what we need is a transcipt of what EB said that night on Raw... So what you say is that the title the Rock lost to Jericho and the one currently held by Benoit are different...just want to make sure I understand....my head is beginning to spin from this

[reign 0]

I know that in the mid-90's the big gold belt was used as the WCW International Heavyweight title but at any time prior to the Sting/Flair matchup that unified the two titles in WCW was the big gold belt ever called the World Heavyweight Championship?

Note: this is all from memory, so feel free to correct me.

 

WCW used to be an affiliate of the NWA. The Big Gold Belt was the NWA World Title. In January 1991, Flair regains the NWA World Title by beating Sting in East Rutherford, NJ. Flair is also recognized as the first WCW World Champion. Theoretically, Flair was recognized as both the NWA World Champion and the WCW World Champion.

 

In July 1991, Flair quits WCW. WCW strips him of the WCW World Title. Lex Luger beats Barry Windham at The Great American Bash to win the vacant WCW World Title. The NWA continues to recognize Flair as the NWA World Champion. In September, the NWA strips Flair of the NWA World Title. In 1992, Masahiro Chono beats Rick Rude in the finals of a tournament for the vacant NWA World Title.

 

Shortly after returning to WCW in 1993, Flair wins the NWA World Title by beating Barry Windham at Beach Blast. For the record, Vader is the WCW World Champion at this point.

 

In September 1993, WCW withdraws from the NWA. The NWA no longer recognizes Flair as the NWA World Champion. However, WCW still possess the physical Big Gold Belt, which is now dubbed the "International World Title." For all intents and purposes, the International World Title didn't mean anything because it was a made-up title. The whole International World Title nonsense finally comes to an end when Flair beats Sting to unify the WCW World Title and the International World Title. From that point on, WCW starts to use the Big Gold Belt as the (unified) WCW World Title.

thanks...that sounds about right

[ChrisMWaters 0]

You know what the funny part, at least to me, is about all of this?

 

I think the only reason that the World Heavyweight Title came back is because HHH didn't like the original idea of the Intercontinental Championship being it's representation.

[reign 0]

What officially made the World Heavyweight championship RAW's half of the Undisputed title before September 2002? Absolutely nothing.

Well I would say that since the big gold belt was called the World Heavyweight Title when it was unified with the WWF title and since Brock physically possessed the Undisputed title belt the only thing to do was bring back the only belt that was left from the two.....I suppose EB could've brought back the winged belt from the WWF but it made more sense to use the same name and title because it would've really been messed up to call the old WWF belt the World Championship....

On a side note I think that it's funny that the REAL WWE(F) tag titles that the Un-Americans brought from SD! are now called the World Tag Titles and the SD! titles are the WWE Tag Titles..I know it makes more sense from a storyline and brand perspective but MAN! has Vince really done a number on the history of wrestling championships...

[Anakin Flair 0]

I must be one of the few people who like the design of the WWE Championship.

 

Personally, I stick to the WWE Championship no matter what.

 

But I'm starting to respect the World Title more.

 

Now here's the question: Let's say for some strange reason, McMahon gets desperate and ends the brand extension...which title will HE chose to use?

I, Too, like the design of the WWE Championship. But I would LOVE it if they brought back the Eagle design that was held by HBK and Bret Hart.

 

In retrospect, it was a good thing that HHH held the belt for so long (And I still say that he won the belt, in a fashion- he faced Taker for a #1 contenders match and won, and, as the #1 contendor, had a right to the belt in theory). It got people used to longer title reigns, and established the belt as something that people wanted to fight for. Still, it would have been nice to have a tourney, or something...

[Guest Askewniverse]

I know that the belt on SD! is the old WWE(F) title but what we need is a transcipt of what EB said that night on Raw

Ask and you shall receive. From CRZ's recap of the show:

 

"You know...Brock Lesnar likes to refer to himself as the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the World, but ever since my competitor persuaded him to become exclusive SmackDown! property, I would say that that title is very, very disputed. And you know what - you fans in this arena who I love SO much...and fans from around the world deserve BETTER than that, dammit! You people deserve your OWN world champion! Exclusive to RAW, the #1 brand in the history, mind you, of sports entertainment...now Stephanie McMahon, she can refer to The Undertaker as the #1 Contender if she chooses, and that's fine, that's her prerogative, and she can have her match with The Undertaker and Brock Lesnar at Unforgiven - that's fine, because the world knows who the REAL #1 Contender is, don't you. That's right - he's the man that proved and convinced The Undertaker, right here on RAW, that it's much better to jump to SmackDown! and be a big fish in a little pond than it is to swim with the sharks on RAW. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce to you the REAL #1 Contender...TRIPLE H!"

[Guest thebigjig]

Am I the only one that finds this argument a little ridiculous? It's like Star Trek fans arguing over rank insignia or the lock combination Kirk used in one of the episodes...

 

BOTH titles are fake... why? Because it's pro wrestling. Jesus Christ, this is like using the logic: Is wrestling real? No... but the titles are!

 

You know what the funny part, at least to me, is about all of this?

 

I think the only reason that the World Heavyweight Title came back is because HHH didn't like the original idea of the Intercontinental Championship being it's representation.

 

So? Why would HHH want to use a belt that has been second rate for the past several years? The IC title was on the level of the European title before it was retired, with a few exceptions like Benoit's reign and his matches with Jericho.

[reign 0]

Am I the only one that finds this argument a little ridiculous? It's like Star Trek fans arguing over rank insignia or the lock combination Kirk used in one of the episodes...

 

BOTH titles are fake... why? Because it's pro wrestling. Jesus Christ, this is like using the logic: Is wrestling real? No... but the titles are!

 

You know what the funny part, at least to me, is about all of this?

 

I think the only reason that the World Heavyweight Title came back is because HHH didn't like the original idea of the Intercontinental Championship being it's representation.

 

So? Why would HHH want to use a belt that has been second rate for the past several years? The IC title was on the level of the European title before it was retired, with a few exceptions like Benoit's reign and his matches with Jericho.

Then why are you in this thread,on this website or for that matter why am I responding to this...we are fans and fans discuss things like this...the folks in this thread are having an interesting discussion...we like to "suspend" disbelief every now and again..stop ruining things with your unnecessary negativity...

[reign 0]

I know that the belt on SD! is the old WWE(F) title but what we need is a transcipt of what EB said that night on Raw

Ask and you shall receive. From CRZ's recap of the show:

 

"You know...Brock Lesnar likes to refer to himself as the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the World, but ever since my competitor persuaded him to become exclusive SmackDown! property, I would say that that title is very, very disputed. And you know what - you fans in this arena who I love SO much...and fans from around the world deserve BETTER than that, dammit! You people deserve your OWN world champion! Exclusive to RAW, the #1 brand in the history, mind you, of sports entertainment...now Stephanie McMahon, she can refer to The Undertaker as the #1 Contender if she chooses, and that's fine, that's her prerogative, and she can have her match with The Undertaker and Brock Lesnar at Unforgiven - that's fine, because the world knows who the REAL #1 Contender is, don't you. That's right - he's the man that proved and convinced The Undertaker, right here on RAW, that it's much better to jump to SmackDown! and be a big fish in a little pond than it is to swim with the sharks on RAW. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce to you the REAL #1 Contender...TRIPLE H!"

Now getting back to business...thank you very much for that link sir...I think that from what EB said then that title is the same World Title as the the one the Rock held...Bischoff clearly says that Brocks Undisputed Title is now disputed and re-establishes the World Title....

[Guest thebigjig]

Am I the only one that finds this argument a little ridiculous? It's like Star Trek fans arguing over rank insignia or the lock combination Kirk used in one of the episodes...

 

BOTH titles are fake... why? Because it's pro wrestling. Jesus Christ, this is like using the logic: Is wrestling real? No... but the titles are!

 

You know what the funny part, at least to me, is about all of this?

 

I think the only reason that the World Heavyweight Title came back is because HHH didn't like the original idea of the Intercontinental Championship being it's representation.

 

So? Why would HHH want to use a belt that has been second rate for the past several years? The IC title was on the level of the European title before it was retired, with a few exceptions like Benoit's reign and his matches with Jericho.

Then why are you in this thread,on this website or for that matter why am I responding to this...we are fans and fans discuss things like this...the folks in this thread are having an interesting discussion...we like to "suspend" disbelief every now and again..stop ruining things with your unnecessary negativity...

Yes, and I have the right as a member of this board to comment on topics that I find are ridiculously stupid... go search through some other threads and you'll find the exact same thing from other people.

 

Why am I on the website??

 

lol get a clue

 

Arguing pro wrestling title lineage and which belt is real and which belt is fake, is like arguing over the legitimacy of Billy Gunn's tights, who made them, and how they represent him as a wrestler

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

The wwe does acknowledge the lineage of the Raw belt, on the Unforgiven 2002 ppv (HHH's first ppv defence against RVD) they had a video montage with guys like Sting, Goldberg, Hogan, Luger, and Flair all in it.

THEN they did acknowledge it.

 

However, how come during his build-up for his WrestleMania XIX match against Booker T, HHH made it seem like the World Heavyweight Championship was a totally different title belt than the WCW Championship?

 

Or how they never acknowledged that Booker, Goldberg, and Benoit had that belt in the past when it was the WCW title belt when they each had their wars against HHH?

 

Just a thought I'd like to point out.

He didn't.

 

He just said WCW itself was a joke.

[reign 0]

In response to the bigjig

Oh so you ARE a fan! My mistake. Well then in that case what is your opinion on the two titles. Has the World Title surpassed the WWE Title in importance? Do you think that the World Title has a longer history than simply being the "fake" belt that was given to HHH? I would really like to know your thoughts rather than talk about how ridiculous wrestling is because that's a whole different topic my friend..and we could argue that all day long.

[SuperJerk 0]

^Word.^

 

 

 

THREE UNDISPUTABLE REASONS WHY THE WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP IS THE OLD WCW BELT

 

1. On the night Bischoff awarded the belt to Triple H, he said that Triple H had been the last person to wear that belt. Flair came out later and talked like he'd held that championship before. (Rewatch the episode if you don't believe me.)

 

2. WWE Confidential had a big piece about the World Heavyweight Championship the following weekend. In that segment, they talked about the former WCW/NWA champs, such as Flair, Rhodes, Hogan, DDP, and Goldberg. This segment is on the "Best of Confidential" DVD.

 

3. The WWE's website declared the title dated back to the early 1900's in the official preview for the last Confidential.

 

 

 

I challenge anyone (i.e. Tawren) to come up with three facts to the contrary.

[Tawren 0]

I challenge anyone (i.e. Tawren) to come up with three facts to the contrary.

For the record, I agree with you that those are three really good reasons to consider it the WCW belt.

 

I just believe it is a brand new title because:

 

1) Why would Brock just give up half his belt?

2) What claim did Bischoff have to half the title? It was "Undisputed champ can be on both shows", not "Undisputed title belongs to both shows".

3) Booker, Goldberg (pre-beating HHH), Steiner, Nash were not referred to as former World champions, they were (on the rare occassions it was brought up) called former WCW champs