Raw Ratings Jump

[Guest Dazed]

Alright everyone, let's calm down. Stop with the name calling, and actually give explainations for your opinions, alright Giz?

 

Man Of 1,004 Modes, you stop it too.

I hope nobody forgot this.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Quick little note:

 

If nothing happens on Raw in the next few weeks to change things...

 

Then Bad Blood 04 will be the FIRST PPV event since Summerslam 02 that HHH is on that has NOT had HHH involved with the World Heavyweight Title in some way as a match participant.

That's true as far as I know but yet isn't it so ironic that the focus for this PPV is all on HHH vs Michaels?

[Guest wildpegasus]

Benoit beat HHH in a triangle match, not a singles match. Benoit beat Michaels in a triple threat match and not a singles match.

1) This leaves PPV main events between Benoit and HHH/HBK fresher and with an easy set-up: i.e. "you've never beaten me one-on-one, Benoit, I demand a match blah blah blah".

 

2) By pretty simple probability, it's actually tougher to win two straight Triple Threats than two straight one-on-one matches, so how this is construed as making Benoit look weak? I could see your point if he'd fluked them, a la Benjamin - but he won both as clean as could be in the middle of the ring.

 

Add in the fact that HHH hit Michaels with a maul on Michael's injured back and we don't get too impressive a feat that Benoit made Michaels tap.

The announcers seemed to make it seem a big deal. Besides, thats just sound ring psychology.

 

You can also say Michaels only tapped because he was in trouble and didn't want HHH to win the belt.

Hmmm... sounds like a bit of a leap of logic there. HBK's character doesn't seem the sort to do something like that to me.

 

Michaels also beat Benoit in their first singles match where Benoit won the award of "most moronic distraction of the year". Benoit has still to win that victory back. He couldn't even beat Michaels last time until HHH had to do it for him.

So they've traded wins, neither of which have been clean, right? That doesn't make Benoit seem inferior to Michaels, it makes them pretty even. Which is good. If Benoit had flattened Michaels both times then I would have no interest in seeing another match between the two. As things stand, a clear victor has yet to be determined. Though I agree the distraction by HHH in Benoit/HBK 1 was really badly done.

 

Plenty of people (me included) complained during 2002/2003 about how HHH would lose Raw matches while feuding with someone, only to always pull out the win in the big PPV matches. This is exactly what Benoit is doing at the moment - minor losses won't hurt him if he can win the big matches, and if he wins everything then there seems like no chance for his opponents to win at PPVs.

1)Like I've said before triple threats really don't mean too much. That triple threat at Mania should never have happened because it forces Benoit to shoot his foot at the start of his title reign. It should've been Benoit vs HHH from the very beginning with a clean victory. Not only would Benoit be more over but the fans would've had the memories of a much better match. When you look back at Mania Benoit didn't do it by himself so the win wasn't completely legit because of so many external factors triple threats cause. That's why wrestlers can complain like you said. Singles > Triple threats. Wrestlemania XX was supposed to be the conclusion of Benoit's life long journey with no controversy and no shadow of a doubt he was the man. A triple threat does the opposite of that and it is certainly not needed to set up rematches. Really, what the triple threat does is leave HHH with an opening to beat Benoit in a singles match thus proving that he is better and the man once again. In effect, the triple threat sets up the burial of Benoit which is what I've worried about ever since I first heard about the triple threat match at Mania. How many people believe Benoit can beat HHH at Summerslam? That tells you something so at the end of it Benoit comes out with a triple threat victory as a face and HHH comes out victorious with a single victory over Benoit in a rematch. Advantage here is for HHH. It's not smart booking in the sense that it leaves PPV rematches open. It's only smart booking for HHH. Let's just hope Vince doesn't let it happen.

 

2)He did fluke the second one somewhat. The probability factor in triple threats can make the victor look good but as I just explained there in the previous paragraph triple threats have inherent weaknesses in putting someone over.

 

The announcers seemed to make it seem a big deal. Besides, thats just sound ring psychology.

 

Benoit didn't do it by himself. It all goes back to why i hate triple threats so much.

 

Hmmm... sounds like a bit of a leap of logic there. HBK's character doesn't seem the sort to do something like that to me.

 

If I said Michaels only tapped because he wanted to throw it in HHH's face just so HHH wouldn't get the belt once he knew he was in real trouble I'm sorry. What I mean is you can definitely read that in the match wether it was intentionally done or not. HBK's charactor could definitely do that because you know that he puts a bigger importance on his feud with HHH than anything else which was clearly evident the night of the draft when he was talking to Bishoff.

 

So they've traded wins, neither of which have been clean, right? That doesn't make Benoit seem inferior to Michaels, it makes them pretty even. Which is good. If Benoit had flattened Michaels both times then I would have no interest in seeing another match between the two. As things stand, a clear victor has yet to be determined. Though I agree the distraction by HHH in Benoit/HBK 1 was really badly done.

 

Neither have been clean but HBK's win was a lot cleaner. He did it by himself somewhat while in the second match HHH won the match for Benoit. Michaels looks stronger than Benoit here. If Benoit had flattened Michaes both times as you say there wouldn't be as much interest in watching them wrestle again but there are other ways to go about it such as a time limit draw.

 

Plenty of people (me included) complained during 2002/2003 about how HHH would lose Raw matches while feuding with someone, only to always pull out the win in the big PPV matches. This is exactly what Benoit is doing at the moment - minor losses won't hurt him if he can win the big matches, and if he wins everything then there seems like no chance for his opponents to win at PPVs.

I see what you're saying but Benoit does have to be protected a little more than others especially at the beginning since he has a history of losing so much. But do you think Benoit can actaully beat HHH at Summerslam?

[Guest Brian]

Add that in the second match Benoit was basically beat before Triple H got there.

[clean rob 0]

Not only would Benoit be more over but the fans would've had the memories of a much better match.

Both of those are pure speculation. It was a really good Triple Threat.

 

Singles > Triple threats.

In terms of general match quality, agreed.

 

Wrestlemania XX was supposed to be the conclusion of Benoit's life long journey with no controversy and no shadow of a doubt he was the man.

I don't believe it was. Such an outcome, where there is no doubt that Benoit is better than HHH, makes HHH look pretty bad (granted, he'll never be buried, but there wouldn't be too much point in a rematch) and HHH is the top heel by a country mile - so what does Benoit do next? Until he retires, Benoit's struggle should never end.

 

A triple threat does the opposite of that and it is certainly not needed to set up rematches. Really, what the triple threat does is leave HHH with an opening to beat Benoit in a singles match thus proving that he is better and the man once again.

The Triple Threat isn't needed to set up rematches, but it's made it easier - Benoit had to start on Raw from scratch, with no real rivalries. Now he has two. As for HHH perhaps winning the belt again down the line - Benoit can't hold it forever. At the moment HHH is the only truly credible main event heel, so it only makes sense to keep him in the title picture so that he can take the belt off Benoit. As long as Benoit gets back in the hunt, it's only sensible.

 

In effect, the triple threat sets up the burial of Benoit which is what I've worried about ever since I first heard about the triple threat match at Mania. How many people believe Benoit can beat HHH at Summerslam? That tells you something so at the end of it Benoit comes out with a triple threat victory as a face and HHH comes out victorious with a single victory over Benoit in a rematch. Advantage here is for HHH. It's not smart booking in the sense that it leaves PPV rematches open. It's only smart booking for HHH. Let's just hope Vince doesn't let it happen.

Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one. I think it is good booking - although HHH has a single victory over Benoit, Benoit still has the Triple Threat victory, and the all-important 'I made you tap' card. It just makes HHH look strong, so that when Benoit (or some other face) eventually beats him, it really means something.

 

2)He did fluke the second one somewhat.

I don't see how. Making someone tap in the middle of the ring =/= fluke IMO.

 

Neither have been clean but HBK's win was a lot cleaner. He did it by himself somewhat while in the second match HHH won the match for Benoit. Michaels looks stronger than Benoit here. If Benoit had flattened Michaes both times as you say there wouldn't be as much interest in watching them wrestle again but there are other ways to go about it such as a time limit draw.

Unless you do the exact same ending to both matches, someone is going to have to look ever-so-slightly stronger. Benoit has the two 3-way wins so it makes sense to give HBK the slight edge in their singles. Like I said, if Shawn decisively wins a singles match in the near future, I might have cause for concern then.

 

I see what you're saying but Benoit does have to be protected a little more than others especially at the beginning since he has a history of losing so much. But do you think Benoit can actaully beat HHH at Summerslam?

If you've read any of my other posts you should already know that I'm a hopelessly idiotic optimist.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Alright everyone, let's calm down. Stop with the name calling, and actually give explainations for your opinions, alright Giz?

 

Man Of 1,004 Modes, you stop it too.

I hope nobody forgot this.

I know I did, I actually made a comment to have people calm down because heated arguments tend to get people a little forgetful of the rules....I know I do that.

[Guest GiZ]

Well it's good to see the argument turned postive, and each side had good arguments both ways

 

The mods here are obvioulsy well respected

[Guest TigerDriver91]

Holy crap. I didn't think everyone would still be debating this topic.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Not only would Benoit be more over but the fans would've had the memories of a much better match.

Both of those are pure speculation. It was a really good Triple Threat.

 

Singles > Triple threats.

In terms of general match quality, agreed.

 

Wrestlemania XX was supposed to be the conclusion of Benoit's life long journey with no controversy and no shadow of a doubt he was the man.

I don't believe it was. Such an outcome, where there is no doubt that Benoit is better than HHH, makes HHH look pretty bad (granted, he'll never be buried, but there wouldn't be too much point in a rematch) and HHH is the top heel by a country mile - so what does Benoit do next? Until he retires, Benoit's struggle should never end.

 

A triple threat does the opposite of that and it is certainly not needed to set up rematches. Really, what the triple threat does is leave HHH with an opening to beat Benoit in a singles match thus proving that he is better and the man once again.

The Triple Threat isn't needed to set up rematches, but it's made it easier - Benoit had to start on Raw from scratch, with no real rivalries. Now he has two. As for HHH perhaps winning the belt again down the line - Benoit can't hold it forever. At the moment HHH is the only truly credible main event heel, so it only makes sense to keep him in the title picture so that he can take the belt off Benoit. As long as Benoit gets back in the hunt, it's only sensible.

 

In effect, the triple threat sets up the burial of Benoit which is what I've worried about ever since I first heard about the triple threat match at Mania. How many people believe Benoit can beat HHH at Summerslam? That tells you something so at the end of it Benoit comes out with a triple threat victory as a face and HHH comes out victorious with a single victory over Benoit in a rematch. Advantage here is for HHH. It's not smart booking in the sense that it leaves PPV rematches open. It's only smart booking for HHH. Let's just hope Vince doesn't let it happen.

Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one. I think it is good booking - although HHH has a single victory over Benoit, Benoit still has the Triple Threat victory, and the all-important 'I made you tap' card. It just makes HHH look strong, so that when Benoit (or some other face) eventually beats him, it really means something.

 

2)He did fluke the second one somewhat.

I don't see how. Making someone tap in the middle of the ring =/= fluke IMO.

 

Neither have been clean but HBK's win was a lot cleaner. He did it by himself somewhat while in the second match HHH won the match for Benoit. Michaels looks stronger than Benoit here. If Benoit had flattened Michaes both times as you say there wouldn't be as much interest in watching them wrestle again but there are other ways to go about it such as a time limit draw.

Unless you do the exact same ending to both matches, someone is going to have to look ever-so-slightly stronger. Benoit has the two 3-way wins so it makes sense to give HBK the slight edge in their singles. Like I said, if Shawn decisively wins a singles match in the near future, I might have cause for concern then.

 

I see what you're saying but Benoit does have to be protected a little more than others especially at the beginning since he has a history of losing so much. But do you think Benoit can actaully beat HHH at Summerslam?

If you've read any of my other posts you should already know that I'm a hopelessly idiotic optimist.

Both of those are pure speculation. It was a really good Triple Threat.

 

You can call me on this clean rob. Benoit vs HHH at Summerslam one on one without any stipulations if it happens will be a better match than the triple threat.

 

The Triple Threat isn't needed to set up rematches, but it's made it easier - Benoit had to start on Raw from scratch, with no real rivalries. Now he has two. As for HHH perhaps winning the belt again down the line - Benoit can't hold it forever. At the moment HHH is the only truly credible main event heel, so it only makes sense to keep him in the title picture so that he can take the belt off Benoit. As long as Benoit gets back in the hunt, it's only sensible.

 

He doesn't have to take the belt off Benoit for a while yet. If he does it ruins Benoit because he still has that history of being a loser in his matches. HHH does not. If you want to keep HHH strong I say keep him stable in the main event scene or let him do tags. Perhaps a little of both. Benoit has plenty of other wrestlers he can go up against as long as they're contenders. Let HHH lose at Summerslam but also stay a minor threat after Summerslam (if he does wrestle Benoit) Just let other people stay stronger. At least for a while. By keeping HHH somewhat strong it won't be hard to put him back back in the title picture down the road if that's the direction the bookers want to go in.

 

And BTW, thanks for the replies. I enjoyed the discussion.

[clean rob 0]

You can call me on this clean rob. Benoit vs HHH at Summerslam one on one without any stipulations if it happens will be a better match than the triple threat.

Hopefully! But it's still speculative, though I have no doubt it will be a very good match.

 

He doesn't have to take the belt off Benoit for a while yet. If he does it ruins Benoit because he still has that history of being a loser in his matches. HHH does not. If you want to keep HHH strong I say keep him stable in the main event scene or let him do tags. Perhaps a little of both. Benoit has plenty of other wrestlers he can go up against as long as they're contenders. Let HHH lose at Summerslam but also stay a minor threat after Summerslam (if he does wrestle Benoit) Just let other people stay stronger. At least for a while. By keeping HHH somewhat strong it won't be hard to put him back back in the title picture down the road if that's the direction the bookers want to go in.

Personally, I'd like to see Benoit lose the belt around Survivor Series, preferably in very strong fashion (say, kickout of Pedigree but get rolled up) and then stay in the hunt for the title with one eye on a rematch down the road, but I really don't see him getting ruined by a loss at Summerslam. The crowd seem to accept him as a ME player now and he should be able to cope with it. As long as he doesn't go straight back to the midcard, that is.

 

And BTW, thanks for the replies. I enjoyed the discussion.

Me too!