Not Sure How I Feel About This...

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Actually this is where I really don't have a problem with Bush's faith and how he says that it helps him through the day and such. I know that Bush claims that God helps him make many choices in his life. He is a very religious man and has made that known. Heck he says that it was through his rediscovery of God that helped him stop drinking and start living a cleaner life. I have mentioned that when religion is used to help one either overcome an addiction, become a better person, or even reform a criminal so that they become a upstanding citizen then that is why religion is a good thing. And for that I will give Bush credit for overcomming his alcoholism. Of course his daughters obviously did not get that memo, but my guess they are acting just like he did when he was in college. And being that I did my fair share of drinking and pot smoking at that age, I cannot say anything without comming off as a hipocrite. But, man those two know how to party like it is on sale for 19.99. The only thing that I am against is making one type of religion in the US seem more important than other ones. When the one thing I love about this country is that we do get the influx of all types of religions. And from this, I see that many have the same messages and at the same time it is nice to see that I am not forced to choose one particular one, or not choose one at all. That is why I remain skeptacle of giving funds to faith based organizations, especially when I see most of the money going towards Christian and Catholic groups, and less to Muslim and Buddhist. And even if these groups are helping out big time, the one thing the First Admendment states that there shall be no official religion established by the government. But of course it also says that you may practice the religion of your choice without government interference.

 

And despite maybe my questions about wheather there is a God or not (I was athiest for a while, but now I have gone more into the agnositic side of the religion thing. I do think that there is a good chance of something that is out there is above all of us. That is what happens when you have to join a church in order for your fiance wanting a marriage in a church, and also if you are a member you get to use the church for free, but I digress). But I do think that religion should be left out of public policy decisions. Just as I agree that government should not interfere with how various religious groups organizes itself, unless of course you get Branch Dividian type cults lead by a complete nut job who, despite what some on the right will tell you how it was all Reno's fault (yes she did mess this one up), forget to remember that it was David Koresh who gave the order to open fire on Federal Agents, and it was David Koresh who set fire to the complex, resulting in the deaths of all the occupants. Cases like this is when the government should BUTT in. But for all the legitamite religious organizations in the US, they should be allowed to establish their own standards and who they allow in or not. Despite if they happen to not include one group of people or not.

 

Even though I totally disagree with the Catholic position of refusing Communion to all politians who support abortion, it is their right to do so. But I would hope some Priests in the Catholic Church that would still give Communion regardless, but it is the Church/Pope's say, not the governments. And if that was to happen, I would highly recommend these politicians to look at other religions, like the one I am currently a member of, the Episcopalian branch. Which so far has been positive experience for this old skeptic, but I know that the Episcopalion branch has been open to homosexuality, and even though I do not know the Church's official stance on abortion, prides itself on saying that all is welcome at God's table for Communion. And as a bonus, everyone gets to go to heaven. Sorry about that plug, but for someone who was very anti-church going fearing that it was going to be a serman of "You are all going to Hell, We are all sinners, God hates all sinners, God hates homosexuals", it has been nice to hear about nothing but upbeat messages and that even though you are sinners, God still loves and forgives you.

 

I still believe in a Seperation of Church and State. As we have seen in countries where religion drives public policy and such, most of the people end up getting oppressed and forced to believe in a religion, and not question it at all. Or they end up in jail, or worse they end up dead. And I am using Muslim Countries as one example, but remember, the Crusades were also driven by religion, and that was under a Christian guidance. So religion should be used as a way to make you a better person. If it used to help those less fortunate, then it is also good. When it is used to justify killing all the Non-Believers, then that is bad. And when it is forced down your throat, you are going to choke.

[Guest whatitistoburn]

So religion should be used as a way to make you a better person. If it used to help those less fortunate, then it is also good. When it is used to justify killing all the Non-Believers, then that is bad. And when it is forced down your throat, you are going to choke.

amen

[Guest MikeSC]

Where is this "Crusader for Christ" that you seem to see in Bush? He's a Christian, is proud of it, but hardly spends all of his time doing evangelical work.

          -=Mike

Bush is about this far away from saying Americans are God's people.

 

He finally backed off on the God loves America rhetoric on National Day of Prayer a few weeks ago by now saying that God finds his people "in all tribes." However, Bush's ties to religion have gone beyond appreciating and studying his religion because he believes it saved his life. It's now linked, however faintly, with his policy. This became evident after 9/11.

 

Plus, there's no documented evidence that any of the non-Christian faith-based organizations that have requested money have ever gotten any.

Bush believes --- as many do --- that the U.S is "special". That we've been ordained by God --- and considering the remarkable stability of our gov't, it's not ridiculous to assume that. A President who doesn't believe that the U.S is an exceptionally blessed and special country shouldn't BE President. Bush's faith pushes him to try and do the right thing --- when did that become a liability?

 

And can you point to these non-faith based organizations that should have gotten money that didn't?

-=Mike

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I mean here: does a person TOTALLY and UNIVERSALLY have to agree with everything that the church dictates in order to receive Communion? Because if so, wouldn't that make us all fundamentalists? Just asking.

At church on Sunday, we had a priest who told us that if you don't believe in everything the church says, you cannot recieve communion, nor will you make it into heaven or even purgatory.

 

Hm.

Whether you like it or not, that is ALL church's teachings. If you don't agree with them, then you shouldn't RECEIVE communion.

-=Mike

Uhhh, no. The communion part you're correct. But about purgatory, there are so many issues about mortal and venial sin that should be taken into effect, and believing in gay marriages is not a mortal sin, nor is being refused communion against your own will.

 

Abortion may be a different story though.

 

Oh and the death penalty thing, I'm pretty sure the Church condemns it. We are supposed show reverance for human life, and it's not our place to punish someone with death. Self-defence is different, as is Augustine's five reasons for war justification.

[Guest Cerebus]

Before people start condemning the Catholic Church, remember that the Pope was vehemently against the Iraq war from the beginning.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Before people start condemning the Catholic Church, remember that the Pope was vehemently against the Iraq war from the beginning.

But that's a particular position, not a universal one. The Church has never condemned all wars, but has believed that they should justified. The Pope believes that this war wasn't justified, many Roman Catholics believe that it has been. This is not the same thing.

 

But when you go against fundamental beliefs, like abortion, then that's going against a universal position in Catholicism, which I guess you would call reverance for life or something. I don't have the exact words on it now, but that's essentially it.

 

Like someone else pointed out, it's sort of hypocritical for them to do that yet not to excommunicate people who believe in the Death Penalty. Not saying the death penalty can't be justified, but I don't believe it's possible from a Catholic point of view.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

That we've been ordained by God

And this is where the bad thinking begins. Many Americans are unsettled by a leader that thinks he's doing God's work.

 

A President who doesn't believe that the U.S is an exceptionally blessed and special country shouldn't BE President.

 

Big difference between saying we're "an exceptionally blessed and special country" and comparing the US to Christ.

 

Bush's faith pushes him to try and do the right thing --- when did that become a liability?

 

When did it stop becoming guidance? When once asked if he asked his father about going into Iraq, Bush says he didn't, he asked God. That statement might sound rather innocent depending on who you are, but at what point are we going back to the 12th century and meeting the Islamic fundamentalists with their own problems? God told me it was OK to start a war with you.

 

And can you point to these non-faith based organizations that should have gotten money that didn't?

 

Islamic and Jewish organizations applying to a program operated by the Department of Health & Human Services to assist faith-based organizations, is what I know. I believe they only number a few, but none of them got anything.