Can the RAW 10 be better than the Smackdown 6?

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Pffffff.

 

Angle had nothing do do w/ the RR Standing O. Benoit got it because he's Chris Fucking Benoit and the fans had no choice but to show respect for the man and his skills.

[Dark Age 0]

You mean the IC Title match, Loss? I think Angle/Kane was MUCH better, but I haven't seen either match in quite a while, so I can't say for sure. By the way, you were talking about how Angle never builds to the Ankle Lock in another thread, however, didn't he murder Kane's ankle that entire match? (I could be wrong)

 

EDIT: It was this thread, actually. I dunno what I was thinking.

 

Edit (Take 2): AAAGGGHHHH!

[Guest Loss]

In that match? Yes. Typically? No.

[Dark Age 0]

I'm pretty sure Benoit doesn't build to the Crossface every match. Take the tag match last week for example. He was suplexing the crap out of Orton for a while, chopping him, then he locked on the Crossface after no build. This is okay, but Kurt doing it isn't? I know in an ideal world, they should build to submissions. However, can it not be presumed that these guys can just lock on a hold just like that and get a submission? That's why they are submission wrestlers. Sometimes they destroy the body part until it eventually gives in, some times they can just lock in a submission out of nothing. Not too hard to believe.

[Guest Loss]

Benoit has gotten to a point where he rarely builds to his moves and focuses more on spots. This I totally agree with. The point of building to a move is not to "soften up" the wrestler, but to telegraph to the audience what the wrestler is thinking. I saw a match recently with Austin and Jericho from August of 2001 and Jericho did some neat-o arm work to build to a ... Walls of Jericho. What the hell is that? I don't think it's necessary to necessarily soften up wrestlers for submissions, but as fans, a match where we have to guess what the wrestlers are thinking is a match with weak psychology.

[Dark Age 0]

Jericho was pulling the exact same stuff with Goldberg last year. You say pyschology is used to show what the wrestler is thinking. They must be pretty big idiots if they're working over someone's arm for ten minutes then forgetting about it and trying to get a pin off a moonsault. That is more inexcusible than just not building to something.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

I realize the Crossface has been built recently as damaging the arm, but Benoit also cranks back the head/neck, so if you look at it like that, the suplexes & chops do the job of weakening his opponents' necks/upper body (as well as back - Benoit does position himself on his opponent's back when applying the Crossface), thus making the susceptible to the Crossface. At least, that's the way I always saw it.

[KTID 0]

Wow, an RVD fan saying Kurt Angle is over-rated. Because RVD isn't right?

 

Right.

 

 

I would, however, be interested in both (RVDMark and Loss) of your opinions on WHY Kurt Angle is over-rated. Unless its too off-topic.

 

By definition, to "over-rate" someone/something is to rate it as better than it actually is in reality. Kurt Angle has been rated by a number of people, particularly posters on this board, as a world-class worker and/or one of the greatest workers of all-time. Since he doesn't fit the criteria for this rating then he is "over-rated" by those who rate him as such. He fails to meet said criteria because;

 

1) He has only ever worked one style of wrestling (the "WWE style", which is one of the worst, most basic and most limited styles of wrestling ever).

 

2) The number of "great"/"world-class" (ie ****1/2+) matches he has ever been a part of can be counted on one hand.

 

3) He has never had a match of the aforementioned quality that was a singles matches not against a world-class worker (eg. Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero etc.).

 

4) When in the position of "carrying" a match against a poor/inexperienced worker (not the likes of The Big Show but rather the likes of Nathan Jones, Matt Morgan etc.), he hasn't done a memorable "carry job" in having remarkably good/entertaining matches (eg. Shawn Michaels having a good match with an absolute slug in Sid).

[Guest Loss]

This is true, we just shouldn't have to guess. There should be absolutely no disputing whether or not Benoit is using those moves to set up the Crossface.

 

But realize that it's no different than Angle tossing around a million suplexes to weaken a wrestler's back, only to then switch gears and apply an anklelock.

 

It's something that I think hinders both Angle and Jericho -- most of their offense has nothing to do with their finishers.

[ChrisMWaters 0]

But realize that it's no different than Angle tossing around a million suplexes to weaken a wrestler's back, only to then switch gears and apply an anklelock.

 

It's something that I think hinders both Angle and Jericho -- most of their offense has nothing to do with their finishers.

I agree with that completely.

 

THat's why in an E-Fed I'm in where I use a version of Kurt Angle, I have him use the Rings of Saturn as his finisher insted...which I've dubbed for him The Olympic Rings.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Angle throws too many suplexes. He doesn't really seem to understand what to do between moves. He goes for the anklelock too much, never sets up the move and is a horrific seller. As much as he plays to the crowd in interviews, he rarely does it during matches. He's tremendous as far as conveying intensity and his offense is his strongest point, but I have yet to see a match where his opponent comes out looking like a million bucks. He's good, but he's not great.

 

You can attribute this to the WWF style as they've banned basically every transition move. I mean you can't even do a belly to belly suplex anymore. And he'd get shit on by management if he actually tried to work someone's leg over before the end.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

4) When in the position of "carrying" a match against a poor/inexperienced worker (not the likes of The Big Show but rather the likes of Nathan Jones, Matt Morgan etc.), he hasn't done a memorable "carry job" in having remarkably good/entertaining matches (eg. Shawn Michaels having a good match with an absolute slug in Sid).

 

Pull your head out of your ass and realize what you just said. No one has been able to carry Jones or Morgan to watchable matches. Jarrett, Benoit and countless others haven't gotten Jones over *1/2.

[Guest Loss]

This is partially true, because even Benoit goes from spot to spot these days. However, even if he stooged to the crowd and kept the match going, I could deal with even the most mundane moves. I think Angle makes wrestling too hard on himself by trying to do too much.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

And he'd get shit on by management if he actually tried to work someone's leg over before the end.

Why do you say that? It'd just be a matter of using some stomps on the ankle, slamming the ankle on the ring apron, maybe slamming it on the ring post, take the opponent to the outside and use the ring steps - stuff like that throughout the match. It's not like he'd need to spend 10 minutes lying on the mat with a submission hold on his opponent's ankle.

[Guest Loss]

Besides, Orton and Batista, as we saw last night, work holds FOREVER and management loves them. So I don't think that's true.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

They seem to not like anything that breaks the brawly WWF style and just a lot of matwokers like Benoit and Malenko moving away from mat stuff for brawling and the hit your signature moves over and over philosophy that the WWF seems to have.

[Guest Loss]

I'd say this were true, again, if not for Orton and Batista lying on the mat a lot and getting praised for it.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I think Orton and Batista can do no wrong in the WWF's eyes.

[Guest Goodear]

Don't you get it Loss? Its all about conspiracy! Becuase WWE hates Kurt Angle soooo much that they gave him every belt in the company in the three years that the guy was healthy. Face it folks, guys like Angle and Benoit are the reasons why there was a downshift in the head dropping, they aren't suffering because of it.

[KTID 0]

4) When in the position of "carrying" a match against a poor/inexperienced worker (not the likes of The Big Show but rather the likes of Nathan Jones, Matt Morgan etc.), he hasn't done a memorable "carry job" in having remarkably good/entertaining matches (eg. Shawn Michaels having a good match with an absolute slug in Sid).

 

Pull your head out of your ass and realize what you just said. No one has been able to carry Jones or Morgan to watchable matches. Jarrett, Benoit and countless others haven't gotten Jones over *1/2.

 

 

Well ok, maybe those two are simply "uncarryable". But they were just examples. The point is that Angle has never carried an absolute slug to a match where you think "that match was remarkably good considering (wrestler A) was in it, much better than any of (wrestler A)'s other matches". As far as examples of this, the likes Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart memorably had watchable, and occasionally good, matches with the slugs that populated the then-WWF in the mid-90's.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

No, they aren't. Even Benoit isn't as good as he was then because of the extra year and half of wear and tear on his body. He's still the best wrestler in the company, but he has begun his decline. Furthermore, Eddy, Angle & Rey were better than anybody now besides Benoit. Edge was better than Christian or post-injury Edge. Christian is not a good wrestler. His offense is really weak, especially for a heel, and he uses too many restholds. Great character, but in the ring Edge is a step above him. Jericho at his peak could hang with the likes of Angle & Rey, but he hasn't been at that level since the Rock feud in 2001. Trip would fall in after the Fab Four as well. Smackdown wins this battle.

[Guest Loss]

Jericho is actually much better -- right now -- than he was in 2001. If he and Benoit had a match tomorrow, it would be better than any matches they've had before now.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Jericho is actually much better -- right now -- than he was in 2001. If he and Benoit had a match tomorrow, it would be better than any matches they've had before now.

I am curious what you have to go on here. I really don't care for the Jericho/Christian matches too much. Jericho had a much better match in 2001 with RVD of all people. He had a couple of bad matches with Austin, but they never seemed to click. He was even better in 2000, he seemed to get lazy/hurt for awhile in the summer of 2001 before turning it on at the end of the year. He carried Chyna to a couple of decent matches back then (late 1999, when he wasn't even at his peak). I really don't see him being able to do that now. The high-point of Jericho's career wrestling-wise seems to be Summerslam 2000. After that he got involved with losers like X-Pac & Kane, and never really got back to his old level. His stuff with Rock in 2001 was great though, as well as his IC Title reign in early 2001.

[Guest Loss]

Jericho wrestled the same spots ad nauseum then. Did you watch RAW last night? Did you see the bow and arrow? Did you see how fluid his moves were? Did you see him varying up things? He's been doing more flying lately, going back to his roots a little. Jericho is not having matches on the level he was then because he's working with lesser opponents, but his performances have been better than they ever have, save for No Mercy against Rock, which was his best ever.

 

I still wouldn't call him a 'great worker', but his current work blows away what he was doing in 2000 and 2001 as a face just because he has matured so much.

[Dark Age 0]

Who would you call a great worker? (not meant to be malice or anything, I'm just curious)

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Fair enough. I wish they would put him against Benoit or Trips so we could know for sure.

[Guest Loss]

I think Benoit and Guerrero are both wrestlers I'd call great. Right now, those are probably the only two, although there are lots of very good workers in the company, including Angle, Michaels, Jericho and Misterio.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I think Benoit and Guerrero are both wrestlers I'd call great. Right now, those are probably the only two, although there are lots of very good workers in the company, including Angle, Michaels, Jericho and Misterio.

Formally, I would call Jericho, Angle, etc. great wrestlers. Benoit & Eddy are elite. Clearly above everyone else in the company. I agree with Loss here, just differ on the terms.

[AndrewTS 0]

While all involved in decent feuds, the other three Evolution members are improving but not in the league of those other workers.

 

Yeah. Gotta love that great up and comer Flair. He is gonna be huge one day. But his time hasn't come yet. He needs improvement. He can improve by watching some Triple H matches.

Okay, give me a break, it was late. I was looking to say "are currently not in the league of those other workers."

 

QUOTE (Loss @ May 25 2004, 01:34 PM)

 

But realize that it's no different than Angle tossing around a million suplexes to weaken a wrestler's back, only to then switch gears and apply an anklelock.

 

It's something that I think hinders both Angle and Jericho -- most of their offense has nothing to do with their finishers. 

 

Angle's fine when he uses the Angle Slam, however there isn't really any decent-looking way to build to the anklelock. Stomp on the guy's ankle?

 

Even back in the Shamrock days, it's been built as hold that needs no softening up to be effective. However, if applied early and escaped, it should be sold as deadly as it is as a finisher.

 

The Walls suck in plenty of ways, and that's yet another. The Walls would work if it was treated the same as the ankelock, but it's not a credible finish and is escaped 80% of the time. Even Kevin Nash, no tech guy to be sure, has countered it.

[Guest Loss]

Kevin Nash is a MARVEL~!

 

But yeah, I think a top rope clothesline would work well for Jericho as a finisher. It's basic, yeah, but it would work well.