Triple H and His Imitation of greatness...

[Guest LiberalFlip]

You really need to go back and actually watch the Horseman days. Each Horseman had his job and division to worry about. The Andersons were the tag team of the group. Blanchard was the mid-card level guy and Flair was the World Title contender of the group. It was often established that Flair couldn't hold onto the Title without the Horsemen having their back where it's NEVER been established that Triple H needs Evolution for anything.

 

Yeah, Flair was the star, the others played the back. What am I missing exactly? In the wrestling equivalent of their roles, your euphemisms are just a nice way of saying they were glorified luggage carriers. They faded so far into the background, they were indistinguishable from that World Championship Wrestling cardboard backdrop from the old WTBS studio shows. Interesting, Luger goes from Horseman, to Flair job boy, while Windham goes from hot prospect turned Flair job boy, to parsley to Flair’s steak in regards to his Derek Fisher like Horseman role. Interesting how that revolving door shakes out isn’t it?

 

The Evolution vs. Horsemen argument you made makes Flair look even worse because in essence Evolution is treated like a bunch of capable individuals who are all stars on their own(except Flair). While the Horsemen members seemed to exist only to interfere and protect Flair.

 

Yes and Dusty wanted to job Flair to Rick Steiner in under 5 minutes at one point. Dusty's booking was all about railroading Flair's credibility anyway that he could get away with.

 

That Ric Steiner stuff is irrelevant. By that point the NWA was in total disarray, and Dusty and Flair’s relationship had completely disintegrated. Dusty had had enough of Flair’s b.s and basically gave him a “Fuck you” booking order. Its not like that characterizes Flair’s rampant run over the NWA roster. Reading between the lines Dusty basically said either you or me.

 

What heel did they even have that was on Flair's level? Koloff or Sullivan were about it as far as any kind of credible upper card heels in the NWA.

 

Kinda proves my point doesn’t it? You can go on a disrespect rampage over every single heel in the NWA during that period by claiming none of them had talent, but the bottom line is nobody was given a real chance. What credible heels did they have? You answered your own question.

 

Blanchard was starting to get old by this time and he still had a big run in the tag division

 

And Blanchard was how much older than Flair? Tully was a hell of a heel before Flair took control.

 

Ronnie Garvin was a schmuck by this point in his career. The fact that you even defend him shows how little you know about this time frame. He was a joke and it was an even bigger joke that he even touched the NWA Title.

 

That’s my point. The Garvin fiasco was a big set up. Garvin, a non-threat if there ever was one ---gets a ludicrous win, just so Flair can waltz into Starrcade 87 and save the NWA from this very definition of a lame duck champ. I mean, that whole disaster is so transparent it’s laughable. Who exactly benefited from that decision exclusively, and at the expense of everyone else?? Hint, it wasn’t the fat man booker with a bacon grease stain on his belly…The Hall of Fame of political power plays. Flair wiggles out of doing a meaningful job.

 

What does Flair riding in a private jet have to do with anything? Maybe the man doesn't like being crowded on planes.

 

LOL. Even Beyonce wasn’t this crazy in love.

 

What power did Flair even have before 1989 other than possessing the NWA Title?

 

We are have hit the Hear no evil, See No Evil portion of this thread. Flair had no power huh? Jeez…Never mind that Crockett has said that he deferred to both Dusty and Flair, and that all the evidence suggests that Flair had massive stroke. Ignorance is Bliss I guess. You’re not even willing to even acknowledge the mere notion that Flair had ANY power in spite of Flair’s mind boggling domination of Crockett promo

 

Notice when Flair got the book he immediately put Steamboat over

 

Enough with this he put Steamboat over nonsense. Steamer and Flair had their little workrate ego masturbatory session, where they would prance around the ring for an hour head-locking and chopping each other, somehow conning everybody into thinking they were “classics”. Flair put the title on him for a couple of weeks, to sell the feud, then yanked the title right back.

 

He also let Funk absolutely destroy him once he got the belt back and missed a few months of tv to sell the injuries. Yep, lot of ego stroking there

 

Funk + Destroying Flair = paid vacation…And who eventually said I Quit? The guy whose very reputation depends on his Texas tougher then shoe leather gimmick…Yep, good ol’ benevolent, never-hurt-a-fly Naitch!.

 

Sting was still extremely new to the NWA by the time the Clash I happened. He wasn't ready for the top title yet but Flair did give him a ton of momentum leaving that match. Flair also gave Sting a rub by bringing his feud with the Great Muta to the main events.

 

Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting….I conceded the point that Flair put Sting over. God, you guys are clinging to that Clash of the Champions match like Dick Chaney would an oil drum. Its like you guys keep repeating that name ad infinitum in order to make it bigger than it really was. Sting might be the only example of Flair truly putting someone over in that 10 year era, and even that has holes in it, as Flair waited two years to job to him, then took the title back …Keep repeating Sting all you want, its not going to grow into the end all be all example of professionalism

 

Koloff turned face because of his feud with Magnum TA. And how exactly did Flair smash him at Starcade? The match was a non-finish where Koloff had Flair totally beat before getting DQed for knocking Tommy Young out a second time

 

Smashed or outsmarted and made to look like an inferior fool…All semantics I guess. How did Nikita’s career fare after that match? That’s the question. My initial point was responding to Loss who practically gave full credit to Flair for Nikita’s baby face success, when he had virtually nothing to do with it. The T.A feud didn’t turn him face, they had no intentions to turn Nikita. After T.A’s accident they called an audible.

 

Rude wasn't even that big of a name until his WWF run.

 

That statement is drenched in irony

 

How Flair got to shows is none of your business. You don't know why he did yet feel comfortable making him out as some terrible person for it. Maybe he didn't like crowded planes. Maybe he liked to get there a little earlier than everyone else. This is just like people jumping all over Lesnar for buying his own plane to travel in.

 

Well, EXCUSE the hell out of me…You’re right, Flair riding on a private plane is NONE of my business. How on earth could I violate the sanctity of private plane flying. It seems like you are jumping to Flair’s defense without any rhyme or reason. Yeah, Flair rode on a private jet just so he could get to the arena early. Heh, that took balls. Shameless, but ballsy.

 

He still put Steamboat and Sting over when it was shown that they were capable draws

 

More Steamboat argument? How does that make any sense? What, Steamboat proved he was a draw to Flair during his 5 minute NWA title reign? You consider those few weeks as champion a meaningful job?

 

You completely overlook the fact that Flair didn't win cleanly that often at all. It was usually understood that he needed the Horsemen or cheating tactics to retain the belt over the superior faces. Flair was only a killer in the ring when he needed to win the belt back

 

That’s a Flair fan boy smokescreen. A smokescreen to create the appearance that Flair was being misused. Truth is, wrestling is a work, not legitimate, Flair didn’t care whether he beat guys clean, just as long as he stayed at the top of the cards, enjoying main event status, and main event money. The ultimate compromise between an egomaniacal talent, and head booker. Flair, stays on top, but looks vulnerable, but in the end never jobs. Pretty genius huh? Too bad Dusty didn’t have the stroke to yank the belt off of him. Might have saved Crockett Promotions. At the very least another heel could have put the company out of business.

 

 

there weren't many drawing faces on the roster

 

Wonder why.

 

Flair hardly ever put himself over the business...Jericho, Booker T, RVD, Kurt Angle and Kane have all gotten the burial job from Triple H since his return in 2002.

 

He never put himself over the business…God, it sounds like you are reading right from the back of that Flair DVD, or the Ric Flair fan club, or The Observer…same thing. At the rate this is going, if I told you that Flair slapped an infant, you would just say that he was just checking to see if the brat was still alive.

 

The Meltzer indoctrination rears its ugly head. All I am asking for is a little consistency. If you are going to jump all over HHH’s misdemeanors, at least give a passing glance towards Flair’s felonies.

 

The bias here is devastating. Even though there is overwhelming and basic evidence that Flair was political, you guys want to play dumb. (Power?…What power?) But you have no reservations in ripping HHH for “burying” wrestlers in situations that are almost exactly identical. You cant have it both ways. In many ways, HHH is far less guilty. Jericho for all of the smark whining, got an extended run at the top and headlined Mania. Same with Benoit. Where was Nikita’s, Morton’s, or Windham’s run, just to name a few. If Dusty had so much power, why didn’t he make himself champ when it would have been easy for him to do so. C’mon guys, cognitive ability.

 

I’m just using the same logic you use against HHH. So quick to throw out the word buried when it comes to him, but with Flair, a little gun shy.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! What a fucking joke. You were making good points till the last paragraph. Triple H is the king of repeated spots in matches. Watch Bad Blood where all he and HBK do is redo spots from their other matches. Or how about when Triple H just decided he was going to beat a bunch of guys with the sleeper hold one month

 

I cant hear my self above the din of your peculiar laughing fit.

 

A Flair fan has no room to talk about unimaginative and repetitive matches.

 

Good looking out Yami Bakura

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

The Meltzer indoctrination rears its ugly head. All I am asking for is a little consistency. If you are going to jump all over HHH’s misdemeanors, at least give a passing glance towards Flair’s felonies.

 

Why should we? It's nothing alike. With HHH since 2002 you can look at almost everyone he faced (minus HBK) and say "that's where their heat and career was ruined." Chris Jericho, Kane, RVD and a few others saw greatly diminished heat and most haven't even touched the main event since and probably never will. Most of Flair's opponents, minus the guys who were past their prime and on the way out, went on to bigger and better things. Even Lex Luger went on to bigger and better things despite not beating Flair. So Flair isn't anywhere near being the career killer that HHH currently is.

 

Smashed or outsmarted and made to look like an inferior fool…All semantics I guess. How did Nikita’s career fare after that match? That’s the question. My initial point was responding to Loss who practically gave full credit to Flair for Nikita’s baby face success, when he had virtually nothing to do with it. The T.A feud didn’t turn him face, they had no intentions to turn Nikita. After T.A’s accident they called an audible.

 

Koloff's career ended because he took time off to care for his sick wife and came back minus the roids. He was a lot smaller and his main selling point as a wrestler was gone. Flair had nothing to do with that.

 

Funk + Destroying Flair = paid vacation…And who eventually said I Quit? The guy whose very reputation depends on his Texas tougher then shoe leather gimmick…Yep, good ol’ benevolent, never-hurt-a-fly Naitch!.

 

And who created a mega heel for the NWA in a matter of moments? HHH didn't even attempt to put Jericho over at all after the quad injury. It was about how much courage he had for finishing the match instead of giving the guy that was going to be around for the next 8 months huge momentum.

 

That’s a Flair fan boy smokescreen. A smokescreen to create the appearance that Flair was being misused. Truth is, wrestling is a work, not legitimate, Flair didn’t care whether he beat guys clean, just as long as he stayed at the top of the cards, enjoying main event status, and main event money. The ultimate compromise between an egomaniacal talent, and head booker. Flair, stays on top, but looks vulnerable, but in the end never jobs. Pretty genius huh? Too bad Dusty didn’t have the stroke to yank the belt off of him. Might have saved Crockett Promotions. At the very least another heel could have put the company out of business.

 

How so? Would you rather have a champion that gets himself DQed or cheats to win or HHH who always wins cleanly and pins guys almost a whole minute after hitting his finisher. You don't have to give the face the title to make him look good but you can bury the face by giving him nothing in the match.

 

The bias here is devastating. Even though there is overwhelming and basic evidence that Flair was political, you guys want to play dumb. (Power?…What power?) But you have no reservations in ripping HHH for “burying” wrestlers in situations that are almost exactly identical. You cant have it both ways. In many ways, HHH is far less guilty. Jericho for all of the smark whining, got an extended run at the top and headlined Mania. Same with Benoit. Where was Nikita’s, Morton’s, or Windham’s run, just to name a few. If Dusty had so much power, why didn’t he make himself champ when it would have been easy for him to do so. C’mon guys, cognitive ability.

 

Again, HHH's opponents lose heat and never seem to recover from feuding with him where Flair's opponents tended to become more over with the crowd. There's why HHH gets ripped. He destroys careers. Jericho, Booker T, Kane and RVD never recovered from feuding with HHH. Flair's opponents either went on to better things or fell victim to themselves in Windham's case.

[Guest MikeSC]

You really need to go back and actually watch the Horseman days. Each Horseman had his job and division to worry about. The Andersons were the tag team of the group. Blanchard was the mid-card level guy and Flair was the World Title contender of the group. It was often established that Flair couldn't hold onto the Title without the Horsemen having their back where it's NEVER been established that Triple H needs Evolution for anything.

 

Yeah, Flair was the star, the others played the back. What am I missing exactly? In the wrestling equivalent of their roles, your euphemisms are just a nice way of saying they were glorified luggage carriers. They faded so far into the background, they were indistinguishable from that World Championship Wrestling cardboard backdrop from the old WTBS studio shows. Interesting, Luger goes from Horseman, to Flair job boy, while Windham goes from hot prospect turned Flair job boy, to parsley to Flair’s steak in regards to his Derek Fisher like Horseman role. Interesting how that revolving door shakes out isn’t it?

Luger goes from fairly non-descript rookie in Florida to somebody Crockett is desperate to have on TV thanks to Flair.

 

Sting was the only UWF guy to succeed in the NWA immediately --- thanks to Flair.

 

Windham? Flair MADE him a hot prospect.

Yes and Dusty wanted to job Flair to Rick Steiner in under 5 minutes at one point. Dusty's booking was all about railroading Flair's credibility anyway that he could get away with.

That Ric Steiner stuff is irrelevant. By that point the NWA was in total disarray, and Dusty and Flair’s relationship had completely disintegrated. Dusty had had enough of Flair’s b.s and basically gave him a “Fuck you” booking order. Its not like that characterizes Flair’s rampant run over the NWA roster. Reading between the lines Dusty basically said either you or me.

Dusty had NO business being sick of anybody's BS after his absurd 1988 run as booker where he had EVERYBODY mention him in their promos on TV --- whether they were in a program with him or not.

 

NOBODY has had an ego fuck like that ever.

What heel did they even have that was on Flair's level? Koloff or Sullivan were about it as far as any kind of credible upper card heels in the NWA.

Kinda proves my point doesn’t it? You can go on a disrespect rampage over every single heel in the NWA during that period by claiming none of them had talent, but the bottom line is nobody was given a real chance. What credible heels did they have? You answered your own question.

Well, Flair left and WCW did WHAT, precisely, with the guys he was holding down? Heel Luger did HUGE business, right?

Blanchard was starting to get old by this time and he still had a big run in the tag division

And Blanchard was how much older than Flair? Tully was a hell of a heel before Flair took control.

Flair was there longer than Tully. And Blanchard was not terribly well-liked by ANYBODY backstage.

Notice when Flair got the book he immediately put Steamboat over

Enough with this he put Steamboat over nonsense. Steamer and Flair had their little workrate ego masturbatory session, where they would prance around the ring for an hour head-locking and chopping each other, somehow conning everybody into thinking they were “classics”. Flair put the title on him for a couple of weeks, to sell the feud, then yanked the title right back.

In case you missed it, the fans shit on Steamboat's reign. He got A LOT of boos during his run.

He also let Funk absolutely destroy him once he got the belt back and missed a few months of tv to sell the injuries. Yep, lot of ego stroking there

Funk + Destroying Flair = paid vacation…And who eventually said I Quit? The guy whose very reputation depends on his Texas tougher then shoe leather gimmick…Yep, good ol’ benevolent, never-hurt-a-fly Naitch!.

Funk was also OLD AS DIRT. Flair took a guy who hadn't even been considered a POSSIBLE contender and made him the biggest heel in the company.

Sting was still extremely new to the NWA by the time the Clash I happened. He wasn't ready for the top title yet but Flair did give him a ton of momentum leaving that match. Flair also gave Sting a rub by bringing his feud with the Great Muta to the main events.

Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting.Sting….I conceded the point that Flair put Sting over. God, you guys are clinging to that Clash of the Champions match like Dick Chaney would an oil drum. Its like you guys keep repeating that name ad infinitum in order to make it bigger than it really was. Sting might be the only example of Flair truly putting someone over in that 10 year era, and even that has holes in it, as Flair waited two years to job to him, then took the title back …Keep repeating Sting all you want, its not going to grow into the end all be all example of professionalism

Sting wasn't ready for the gold in 1988. He was ready, they thought, in 1990. It turned out he wasn't.

 

And Flair made Morton look like a world-beater. He made the Road Warriors look like they could wrestle. He dragged Luger to good matches. He made Windham a hot prospect. He carried Nikita Koloff in Koloff's first big match and made him look like a million bucks. Hell, he WANTED to put Scott Steiner over big-time. He WANTED to put Steve Austin over.

Koloff turned face because of his feud with Magnum TA. And how exactly did Flair smash him at Starcade? The match was a non-finish where Koloff had Flair totally beat before getting DQed for knocking Tommy Young out a second time

Smashed or outsmarted and made to look like an inferior fool…All semantics I guess.

Flair looked LUCKY, not superior.

How did Nikita’s career fare after that match? That’s the question. My initial point was responding to Loss who practically gave full credit to Flair for Nikita’s baby face success, when he had virtually nothing to do with it.  The T.A feud didn’t turn him face, they had no intentions to turn Nikita.  After T.A’s accident they called an audible.

As mentioned, Nikita took time off for his wife, got off the juice, and grew some hair. When he came back, he was hardly menacing.

 

And Flair STILL dragged a good match out of him at Crockett Cup 1988.

Rude wasn't even that big of a name until his WWF run.

That statement is drenched in irony

Sorry, but WCCW Champion really wasn't a huge deal.

How Flair got to shows is none of your business. You don't know why he did yet feel comfortable making him out as some terrible person for it. Maybe he didn't like crowded planes. Maybe he liked to get there a little earlier than everyone else. This is just like people jumping all over Lesnar for buying his own plane to travel in.

Well, EXCUSE the hell out of me…You’re right, Flair riding on a private plane is NONE of my business. How on earth could I violate the sanctity of private plane flying. It seems like you are jumping to Flair’s defense without any rhyme or reason. Yeah, Flair rode on a private jet just so he could get to the arena early. Heh, that took balls. Shameless, but ballsy.

He also had a habit of working MULTIPLE shows a day --- and the plane was kinda needed for that.

You completely overlook the fact that Flair didn't win cleanly that often at all. It was usually understood that he needed the Horsemen or cheating tactics to retain the belt over the superior faces. Flair was only a killer in the ring when he needed to win the belt back

That’s a Flair fan boy smokescreen. A smokescreen to create the appearance that Flair was being misused. Truth is, wrestling is a work, not legitimate, Flair didn’t care whether he beat guys clean, just as long as he stayed at the top of the cards, enjoying main event status, and main event money. The ultimate compromise between an egomaniacal talent, and head booker. Flair, stays on top, but looks vulnerable, but in the end never jobs. Pretty genius huh? Too bad Dusty didn’t have the stroke to yank the belt off of him.

Question: Who beat Luger clean: Heel Flair or face Dusty?

there weren't many drawing faces on the roster

Wonder why.

See Rhodes, Dusty.

The bias here is devastating.  Even though there is overwhelming and basic evidence that Flair was political, you guys want to play dumb. (Power?…What power?)  But you have no reservations in ripping HHH for “burying” wrestlers in situations that are almost exactly identical.  You cant have it both ways.  In many ways, HHH is far less guilty.  Jericho for all of the smark whining, got an extended run at the top and headlined Mania.  Same with Benoit. Where was Nikita’s, Morton’s, or Windham’s run, just to name a few.  If Dusty had so much power, why didn’t he make himself champ when it would have been easy for him to do so. C’mon guys, cognitive ability.

He did pin Luger and have heel Luger be scared of him for their entire program, right? He din with the World Title TWICE over objections, right?

-=Mike

[Guest Loss]

Just like all of the Horseman were in Flair’s shadow until he needed a bitch boy and turned Luger babyface.

Flair was not the booker. Dusty was the booker. Flair did not book the finishes. Dusty booked the finishes. Flair did not turn Luger babyface. Dusty turned Luger babyface.

 

Meanwhile, you’re right, every babyface got over with help from Dusty’s rub until their were eventually fed to placate Flair’s ego.

 

That's an ... interesting way to look at it. Do you really think the Rock & Roll Express benefitted any from Dusty coming out to tell the ref the Midnights cheated so the match can be restarted? Or is that just Dusty booking himself to be an all around great guy yet again? Luger really got over from Dusty, jobbing to him and all at the same show you say Flair turned into a joke. Sting had nothing to do for most of 1988 after the 45-minute draw at Clash I. He spent the following few months in limbo and it wasn't until Flair started booking in 1989 that he was actually consistently put in the top storylines. You could also argue that Luger was used better in 1989, under Flair's watch, than he was as the perennial choke artist in 1988.

 

Almost all of the above mentioned  jobbed to Flair sans Magnum whose career was cut short. Magnum would have joined that list, believe-DAT-playa.

 

Magnum might have joined that list. He might not have. Flair's drawing power started taking a hit around 1987 or so, coincidentally right around the same time Hogan peaked with Mania. The plan was to go full speed ahead with Flair v Magnum as the top feud in 1987. I tend to agree that the belt would have gone back to Flair immediately, because Flair made a career out of bailing out wrestling companies. He did it when Sting tanked in 1990. He did it again when Sid went crazy in 1993. I think even by 1987 the window had already passed for Magnum to be competitive at all with Hogan, when the right time to put the belt on him was on the Bash tour in the summer of '86, but instead ... Dusty Rhodes was winning the belt.

 

C’mon, don’t re-write history.  Dusty was a very popular baby face in the mid-80’s despite the jeers of a few Flair marks…and his popularity was not all because of Flair, considering he had a nice money rivalry with Tully Blanchard.

 

After the Omni angle where the Horsemen attacked Dusty in the cage, when Dusty did his interview on TBS, the audience was booing him. It was unmistakeable. It happened from time to time. Yes, in most cities, he was very popular, but he wasn't as popular as he had been in the late 70s and earlier in the decade.

 

Tully v Dusty drew? Are you sure about that?

 

I’ll be the first to admit that Dusty’s popularity began to fade by late-87 -1988, and his trying to maintain his status was probably detrimental to the product.  Then again, I am not on a crusade to make Dusty out to be the Patron Saint

 

Nor am I out to make Flair the Patron Saint. But common sense says that when the booking is bad, the booker takes the blame, not the top star.

 

Riiight…  Crockett and Dusty demanded that Flair go from 1983 to 1990 as the World Champion without doing a meaningful job.

 

It's actually been well-documented that Crockett used his power with the NWA Board of Directors to make sure Flair had the belt as much as possible.

 

Let's look at each of his losses in that period:

 

Kerry Von Erich - The win had been built up for years, and Flair put him over in front of a packed house in Dallas. Kerry would have made a great babyface to build the NWA around had he not been a basketcase. Counting on Kerry to make it to every match and deliver without being looped out of his mind was what held him back more than anything. Flair made both him and all the rest of the Von Erichs look like gold every time he came through.

 

Dusty Rhodes - Magnum was the hot new babyface at this point, not Dusty. Flair had held the belt for two years and it was probably time for him to drop it for a while. Dusty got it for two weeks, for reasons I don't understand at all, and Flair got it back two weeks later, which means the run was never intended to be a long one. Magnum in that spot would have worked, and he could have defended against Flair all year in 1987. Considering Dusty booked his own win and loss here, you'd have to ask him why he refused to put himself over under meaningful circumstances.

 

Ron Garvin - The biggest joke of a world champion there ever was. I'll talk more about this shortly.

 

Ricky Steamboat - A great worker, but not the type of guy to build a company around. The clean finishes and match quality of the Flair/Steamboat feud did however do wonders to re-establish the belt after all the screwjobs, time limit draws, DQs and reverse decisions of 1988. He served his purpose. They were meaningful circumstances.

 

They also forced Flair to make the Horsemen the end all be all group for practically half a decade without any heel even getting a sniff of the main event.

 

Who? Did any of them have Flair's charisma? Name someone who could have done the job.

 

Against Flair’s protests they turned Tully Blanchard from a top heel into Screech to Flairs’ Zach Morris.

 

Tully won almost every feud he ever had. He never went more than a few weeks without a title. When was he a top heel, and at what point did he fall down the ladder? And what did Flair have to do specifically with that decline?

 

They threatened Flair with bodily harm by commanding him to turn Starrcade 87 into a joke by making Flair look like Superman and Ronnie Garvin out to be a schmuck.

 

It was a bad idea. Flair could have been told no. He wasn't. Does that mean he's to blame? Windham was really the only babyface who had a chance in '87 when Magnum out, and yes, he lost to Flair earlier in the year, but it wasn't until '88 when Dusty actually backed him again, as they had a huge falling out when he left for the WWF in 1985. Would Flair have dropped the title to Windham and not gotten it back? He wasn't asked; we'll never know.

 

They coerced Flair into riding in their private jet.

 

So what? Really, who cares about a private jet? The top guys in WWE now fly in first class and everyone else is expected not to do so. That's their business.

 

And to prove their power to Flair they made sure that he beat every single up an coming babyface.

 

For about half of that time period you mentioned, 1983 to 1990, the NWA champ was still a traveling champ and needed the ability to alternate between face and heel, depending on the territory. Did anyone else get the chance? No. Did anyone else show any indication that they could have handled the role? Only Ted DiBiase, and as far as I know, he was never talked about as an NWA World champ by the board.

 

I know you are covering for your boy ala Meltzer, but the truth is Crockett was the furthest thing from a McMahon type.  Crockett was an aloof daddy’s boy who was ambivalent to wrestling in general and the NWA in particular. He left the NWA to Dusty AND FLAIR who both used the opportunity to turn the territory into their ego fueled playfield.  When push came to shove, Dusty was shown the door.  It was a constant power struggle between the two.

 

The struggle betwen the two did play a large part in the decline of the NWA. I'll give you that much.

 

And in the meantime Flair would have cured cancer if not for that jerk Dusty Rhodes.

 

Ah, the joys of hyperbole ...

 

This is just all wrong.  The most glaring is Nikita Koloff.  Nikita was turned babyface by Dusty’s RUB in a match against the Andersons.  Flair had nothing to do with it.  Nikita got monster pops, so of course Flair couldn’t wait to get his hands on him.  He smashed Koloff at Starrcade ‘86(in a miserable match, probably because fans knew the outcome) and sent Koloff on a reverse rocket ride back to the mid-card…Mission complete, another threat vanquished.

 

He didn't even pin Koloff at Starrcade. Or in house show rematches. The feud was left open-ended, but they switched focus to Dick Murdoch and later Barry Windham as they both came in. Flair was part of the angle with Nikita. Their staredown was the exclamation point!

 

So of course Flair gets credit for “making” Koloff while HHH gets killed for “ruining” RVD’s career…ugh.

 

Because even prior to that, in 1985, Flair made Nikita a threat on a world title level, blading and bumping for him and doing some strong mic work. This was at a point where Nikita was still very green for the record. One of my favorite angles from that period was Flair's "this is America" rant on Ivan Koloff where Nikita blindsided him and Dusty made the save. 1986 wasn't the first time they worked together.

 

Yeah, and Jerry Lawler was just some poor unknown sap until Flair got in the ring with him.  I know you are not trying to insinuate that Flair somehow made guys like Von Erich and Lawler, considering they were already huge stars.

 

I never, ever said he made them stars. I said he went through the territories and made them look great, once for Lawler, which made for really good TV, and many times for Kerry.

 

You’re right about Sting tho.  A point that Meltzer cant help himself to bring up like every other week.  Flair did take his sweet time in finally jobbing to him huh?

 

You *do* know Sting would have won the title sooner had he not been injured, right? Right?

 

The old standby: Nobody was as good as Flair. The first part of that paragraph is like the old Tootsie Roll commercials, the world may never know.  We will never know if a heel like Rick Rude could have ascended beyond wrestling Wahoo McDaniel, because he was never given the chance.  A more then common theme.  And we already covered all of the babyfaces in the NWA during that era that were trampled on.

 

If you're thinking Rude is an example, Rude didn't really come into his own as a heel until 1989 or so. He was considered a slow study when the WWF first signed him in 1987. He was nowhere near Flair, and headlined WCCW in a major downturn and had various chances on top. They never worked. Ted DiBiase is the only person I can even begin to think of -- and I really am trying, believe it or not -- that could have filled Flair's shoes.

 

To say Hogan status is misleading.  For instance, Barry Windham would not have been Hulk Hogan (would have been worth a try)…that said its interesting you bring him up.  While the WWF was sending fans home happy with Hogan winning, the NWA had a cocky heel beating or outsmarting every single good guy in the company, all the while cackling on the mike by flaunting his wealth and rubbing his success in their faces. He never got his comeuppance.

 

He got his comeuppance constantly. I can't even count the number of non-title jobs he did, or the number of times his suit was torn up, or the number of times he bladed. He was considered bulletproof because he could do a promo the next week that was strong enough to make him seem as good as he ever was.

 

On a side note, Flair didn’t start jobbing until Hogan came to town in 1994, as Flair was finally outgunned politically.

 

Flair started jobbing in 1990, when he was being groomed to be Spartacus.

 

I’m just going off of superficial evidence, and common sense. Unlike you trying to act as if you were shadowing Flair for all of those years.

 

It seems like you're the one with the axe to grind actually. If you were going off of superficial evidence and common sense, you'd know that the booker books and the wrestler wrestles and you'd blame Dusty for the decline of the NWA.

 

Everything benefited Flair, so at best what you are doing is being naïve.

 

I'm not being naive. If Flair had a flaw, it was that he didn't put his foot down enough. We're talking about the guy who made out with a mannequin because Dusty booked it for crying out loud. It was the precursor to necrophilia.

 

That’s weak.  It didn’t affect us, so why should we care?  I’m sure all of the other wrestlers were just thrilled at the fact that Flair and his boys were riding around in Limos and private jets. Just great for morale.  And yes, I know that Dusty was on those flights as well.  But to hear people spin it, its just good ol’ high livin Nature Boy.  I’m sure you guys would have no objection if HHH & Co were doing the same.  I take that back, maybe you wouldn’t, because that would then force you to say the same about Flair.

 

I wouldn't. The top guys fly first class today and everyone else rides coach. It's considered locker room protocol. This is no different. This is how it's ALWAYS been. Flair is not unique in this regard. Perhaps you'll have some merit when Tully, Arn, Cornette, Eaton, Lane, Condrey, Sting, Luger, Windham, Magnum, Nikita or the Rock & Rolls ever come out and bash Flair in an interview. Most of them have had the chance to do so and have complimented him. The wrestlers who have a problem with Flair are typically either the ones who were competing with him politically (Ole, Dusty), were shunned midcarders during his 1989-90 run as booker (Zenk, Foley) or had only had limited experience with him anyway (HTM, Roberts).

 

You’re right, Magnum would have been fed to Flair at some point.  To explain Dusty’s win, maybe it was an attempt to give paying customers hope that a dickhead like Flair could actually lose.  I mean, Flair had only held the belt for two years straight up until that point. Of course, Flair got the belt back within days, which naturally speaks to his lack of political power.  Power that would eventually lead to NWA bankruptcy

 

There was an All Japan tour coming up in a few months and Baba hated Dusty, so the belt needed to go back to Flair. Flair was not the booker. Dusty was. They were also building to Flair/Magnum and didn't know he'd crash into a utility pole at the time. Flair was not the booker. Dusty was. I'm saying that a lot, but I'll say it as many times as I need to say it. I find it interesting how you think every decision that was made in Flair's favor was a result of him lobbying for it instead of there actually being a purpose for it in the bigger picture.

 

In that regard HHH is a weak imitation of Ric Flair.  HHH didn’t have the sense to get Dave Meltzer on his side, thus turning “wrestling’s leading journalist” into his own personal groupie who will cover for his every misdeed no matter the blows to credibility.

 

We haven't exactly seen a huge anti-Flair movement come out of the Torch either, have we? It would have surfaced there.

 

HHH also didn’t learn that you should go seven years without a meaningful job, not merely a few months.  HHH also didn’t learn how to put a company into Chapter 11.

 

If WWE weren't so well run fiscally, HHH would be a loss leader at this point.

 

Last but not least, HHH didn’t learn how to work the same dumb ass silly spots into every match, work the same exact match night in and night out, and yet convince everyone he was “the greatest ever“.

 

He's managed to convince himself of that without much fail actually. I don't even think Flair's the best ever, but he was the best of the NWA during the time period he was the top guy without question.

 

What’s up with all of this HHH adapting to the different styles of wrestlers, and actually trying to evolve as a worker.  What an asshole. Too many drugs I'm taking…Benoit cant be champ

 

Benoit IS Ron Garvin. Then again, I suppose you'll tell me next that Flair was banging Dusty to keep his spot.

[iggymcfly 0]

GOD DAMN that's a long post. Anyway, the one point I want to make is that Flair and Dusty both lived in an era where the success of a wreslter was based almost completely on his push. It was still in kayfabe so wins and losses were of ultimate importance. Triple H's road has been completely different. He's been put against people who's storylines have so many gaping holes that their characters don't make sense (Kane), people whose in-ring skills are so bad that they'll get more heel heat as a top face than any heel in years (Steiner), and people who were completely left off PPVs before and after main eventing against him (RVD and Booker). Blaming the loss of their heat on a single loss to Trips is simply ludicrous.

 

HHH is a smart man. He knows how the business works. He knows main events against strong faces draw more money, and he's never intentionally made all his opponents look ridiculous to keep his spot. What he's been doing is overselling for all of them despite their obvious flaws in a vain attempt to get them over. Then, he's forced to hold on to the title when they get sunk by creative and there's no logical contenders. I really think this whole HHH holding down talent thing is nothing more than an internet myth. To quote a movie (I think Scream), it's kind of like the Richard Gere/gerbil thing, even if it's ridiculous, if you keep hearing about it long enough, you start to believe it.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Then you don't pay attention. There were rumors flying after the RVD match that HHH deliberately worked a style that went totally against RVD's strengths.

 

And yes you can blame a totaly loss to Triple H as the point where someone's career is broken. RVD, Booker and Jericho have never been the same since feuding with Triple H. None of them have even touched the levels of heat they had before they collided with Triple H. RVD and Booker T in particular haven't even had a Main Event spot since their feuds with Triple H. They can't even main event over Bradshaw or the Dudleys on Smackdown right now. Chris Jericho is considered to be so damaged from the Triple H feud in 2002 that he still hasn't recovered over 2 yrs. later. Kane only briefly escaped the problem from a complete overhaul of his character. As bad as Steiner was in the ring he never even hit mid-card status after his Triple H feud. Look at Goldberg's title reign for proof. It was more about Triple H getting HIS belt back more than Goldberg actually being champion. Triple H has only attempted to make HBK look good since his return.

[Jingus 0]

Okay, next time Flip posts, I get first dibs on the comeback. Loss, that post of yours looked like it was way too fun to write.