Triple H and His Imitation of greatness...

[Guest Loss]

I really don't want to get into this but Dusty was a brilliant wrestling mind with a tremendous grasp of how to get the crowd behind him and use that association to get over numerous younger talents both as 'foils' and as 'friends'.

It's hard for me to completely loathe Dusty. It was the era where he booked that I became a fan. HHH has 'foils' and 'friends' too, but they're all in his shadow, just like all of Dusty's were in his shadow. Nikita Koloff. Magnum TA. Sting. Lex Luger. The Road Warriors. Ricky Morton. Barry Windham. Every babyface that got over under Crockett was strongly involved with Dusty in one way or another in storylines. That was to keep *him* over, not get the new acts over. Dusty was even getting booed as early as 1985 when feuding with Ric Flair (watch the tapes sometime), so he obviously knew his position was a fragile one.

 

Dusty was an excellent interview though, and I don't doubt that he did understand the way wrestling was supposed to work. However, he had a habit of using that knowledge to make himself look better instead of boosting the product.

 

Dusty was one of the few bookers that actually liked to push younger guys only to have his decisions vetoed religously by World Champion Flair.

 

This is a bullshit myth perpetuated by Mick Foley's biography that needs to be laid to rest for good. I've explained this a million times, but people still insist that Flair was some type of sneaky political monster in the 80s when nothing could be further from truth. Flair had no power. He often suggested storylines, but Crockett or Dusty would be the ones to greenlight it or turn it down. It's no different from the current WWE model where all praise and blame should lie on the shoulders of Vince and no one else. The only time Flair refused to do a job was to Luger, and yeah, Luger probably could have had a short run with the title and drawn money on a limited level. That's ONE black mark that's accurate out of the million or so which have been put on him.

 

Flair is responsible for anyone even caring about Luger. Or Sting. Or Dusty after 1984. He got Magnum TA over in the NWA. He was the only heel over enough to turn Russian monster Nikita Koloff babyface in the middle of a cold war. He put Hogan over strong right off the bat on WCW turf. He routinely traveled around to every territory making the top guys in every area look like a million bucks -- Kerry Von Erich, Ted DiBiase, Barry Windham and Jerry Lawler are some of the more famous examples. He took Mike Von Erich to a draw after he had only been in the business three months, and he was world champion! He was so used and abused, in fact, that his drawing power was fading by the late 80s because his credibility was fading, and this was in an era where credibility actually meant something, or at least we were told it did, so Flair wasn't taken as seriously as WWF counterpart, who cleanly defeated everyone he wrestled.

 

Flair never held anyone down because there was no one in a position to be held down. Name one wrestler, any wrestler, that could have taken Flair's place as the new top guy and delivered consistently at that level from then on. Then, tell me what Flair did to sabotage that person. Then, take one of the big babyfaces, any of them, from the Crockett era -- Luger, Dusty, Sting, etc. -- and tell me why they never reached Hogan status. Then, tell me if that was because of a personal flaw, the booking, or Ric Flair.

 

It's often cited that because Flair traveled to shows in private jets that he was getting special favors. Those aren't exactly the type of favors that affect us as fans, so why the hell do they matter? If Flair was putting himself over guys who were clearly ready to surpass him on a regular basis, this point of view may have some validity. As it stands, that never happened. Not even once.

 

Oh and by the way, I don't seem to remember Dusty ever holding the World title for more than three months with two of his reigns going something like two to four weeks.

 

Dusty isn't the one who had anything to do with that. In fact, in 1981, he put the title on himself without permission from the NWA board, which many credit for the disbanding of the NWA, since the entire point of the governing body was overruled when he decided to go ahead without permission.

 

The reason his title win in 1986 was so short was to build toward Flair v Magnum all through 1987. That said, it wasn't necessary that he even win the title, and in fact, Giant Baba felt Dusty represented everything bad about wrestling, to a point where the NWA/AJPW relationship started to fall apart when he put the belt on himself in 1986.

 

The title reigns weren't a case of getting someone else more over or making a star or drawing money. They were any attempt from a desperate worker to squeeze in a world title however he could, whether or not it made sense, and whether or not it would make a difference. Dusty just wanted to call himself a former world champion.

 

Dusty is far more of a early Mick Foley or Rock than a Triple H and he played to those strengths all the time.

 

In terms of charisma, Dusty blows HHH away. In terms of controlling the company and keeping everyone else below a certain level, they're exactly alike. HHH is merely a wolf in sheep's clothing, or perhaps a Dusty in Ric Flair clothing.

[iggymcfly 0]

Just for a clarification on star ratings, mine aren't anywhere near as stringent as Loss's.

To me, a *** match is a good match that has some minor flaws that keep it from being special. A **** match just means a MOTY candidate in the WWE, probably one of the top five to ten matches of the year. An actual match of the year for me (in the WWE) usually ranges from ****1/2 up to ***** depending on how good of a year there was.

 

I saw almost every PPV for a while, from Unforgiven 2001 through Unforgiven 2003. Since, then the only PPV I've seen was WM XX. Couple that with Raw and Smackdown watching that's gone from religious to occasional back to religious, and back to occasional again over the last six years, and that's pretty much the sum total of the wrestling I've seen. Out of all those matches, the only one I've given ***** is HHH/HBK from SS 2002, because I thought that for the situation, that match was perfect. The story was perfect, the spots were perfect, and the finishing sequence was perfect. The selling was not perfect from a technical standpoint, but from a dramatic standpoint it was. The kip-up didn't ruin disbelief or anything to me. All it did was show that HBK was making a conscious decision to ignore the pain, and put everything he had into defeating HHH.

 

In wrestling world, that doesn't suspend disbelief the same way that say Rock no-selling the lionsault as an effective finisher or Benoit no-selling the ankle lock as an effective submission or Angle no-selling the crossface would. It fits in with the story of HBK rediscovering himself as a wrestler perfectly.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

And how is overrating the Mania 3-way because it was Benoit's big win any different than overrating the SS 2002 match because it was HBK's return match?

[Guest RickyB]

The Backlash match was worse than the WMXX match by alot and you seem to overate both.(that's your taste I guess) The WMXX match had tighter pacing inovative spots and never really dragged like the Backlash match did. They both had no deep psychology but that's to be expected from WWE matches. Also the storyline told throught the WMXX match was superior to the Backlash match.

 

Umm, there was a lot of psycology in the match actually... why does every fan seem to think the only kind of psycology is working a body part. Psycology is telling a story in the match and that story MIGHT be working a body part before putting on their finishing submission which is on that body party to win the match. It MIGHT be working a body part to stop the opponent hitting their own finisher (ie working the leg so that they can't hit a superkick. It might not even be working a body part, it can just be trying everything they can to pin the opponent but them kicking out every time. Their was a hell of a lot of psycology in the match, the psycology of all three of them putting everything on the line to win the match, all three of them refusing to give up, or trying to stop other people giving up because the belt changed hands if anyone got pinned, or the fact that Benoit was always going for the crossface, shawn michaels was always going for the superkick and HHH was always going for the pedigree because they knew if they got their finishers they'd win, same with everyone avoiding the other finishers because they knew they were beaten if they were hit with it.

 

Psycology is a lot more than just working a body part ffs, theirs a lot put into it, people should stop talking about what they don't understand.

 

Plus, to whoever said it. There is NO such thing as a "correct" star rating, it's all one persons perception. I personally think star ratings are stupid as no 2 people will see a match the same way. I personally think HHH/HBK HIAC was a great match, but a lot of people seem to disagree. Why? I think it's because WWE seemed to be building up a highspot filled match when they went out and did an incredible wrestling match.

 

Plus what is it with people always rating "workrate", I couldn't care less if a match has a great "workrate" if people go out and entertain me then i'm happy. if the LIVE CROWD enjoys it then they've gone and done their job. Why should Nick Dinsmore go out and kill himself when he gets the best reatction on the show by doing some great comedy stuff. And people are complaining about the HIAC... did you HEAR the pop wen HHH won and the ovation HBK got. They did their job and entertained the live crowd and got a great reaction

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Good matches, one even going ***3/4 but the rest were **-*** level...I'm sure Flair even took Rhodes over *** once but the matches were mainly **3/4 levels everytime

 

Personally, I give their SummerSlam 2002 match ****1/4, their December RAW match ****1/2, same for the Backlash 3-way, and ***** for the WM Main. The latter two, even though they had Benoit in them, should also be considered within the HHH vs HBK feud. Of course Flair had maybe one or two 3-ways in all his life but none with Rhodes, but still those 2 matches (WM and Backlash) should be taken into account IMO.

I gave

 

Summer Slam 2002-***

Armageddon 2002-**

12/29/03-****

Rumble 04-**1/2

Blood 04-**1/2

 

The three ways do not count...but to add

WMXX-****1/2

Backlash-****1/2

 

So really HHH/HBK hasn't been that great of a series.

Rumble and Bad blood are at least ***

 

How many modern feuds have featured that many good to very good matches?

The feuds only real problem is the huge overexposure/

[Guest Loss]

The first two PPV matches of the Rock/Jericho feud blow away anything HHH and Shawn have ever done. By the Rumble, they had slipped a lot, but in terms of sheer number of good matches, they surpass HHH/HBK.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

I understand that psychology can be just telling a story. The WMXX match had no true body work(picking a certain body part apart) but it had greater strory with Benoit being the underdog. The Backlash match was slower and had contrived spot's like Shawn's plancha through the table which looked bad because he wasn't going to make contact with HHH or Benoit. At wrestle Mania the table spot was great because Shawn and Trip work together despite their hatred for each other to get rid of Benoit. It put heat on both and made the crowd get behind Benoit even more. There many other spot's that the WrestleMania match had that told a better story than the Backlash match. Thet table spot is an example of psychology with out working a bodypart. I know telling a story is psychology Ricky B you don't have to tell me that I don't know whet psychology is. The Wrestlemania match had better psychology. I wish they had focused on certain body parts like Shawn's back HHH's leg or Benoit's neck but the WMXX match still told a supperior story compared to the Backlash match.

[Guest Loss]

Anyone else find it funny how the guys that are supposed to be setting the standard and getting away from the needless bump taking have trouble working matches without a table spot?

[pochorenella 0]

How so? If you mean HHH and Shawn, their best match (December 2003 RAW) had no table spot.

[Guest Loss]

It's the only match they've ever had where there wasn't some sort of stunt added to make it work. Yet they criticize the rest of the roster for doing stuff like that to get a cheap pop.

 

The first time I watched the RAW match, I thought it was excellent. Rewatching shows an overreliance on chops, weak punches, HHH's incredibly weak offense and an opening few sequences that had no affect on the rest of the match. It's a good match, but those are flaws that can't be ignored.

[pochorenella 0]

Yet they criticize the rest of the roster for doing stuff like that to get a cheap pop.

 

I've never heard/read anything anywhere saying HHH or Shawn criticized others for wanting cheap pops. What I read was management used that match as example on the direction they wanted matches to go. If both guys openly criticized other guys because of this it's news to me, and it's wrong. High-risk spots, done in moderation, are totally enjoyable IMO. Take Foley vs Orton at Backlash for example. If we see those kind of spots once in a full-moon then I like them. Sick spots for the sake of sick spots day in and day out turn me away.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

HHH used to lecture the rosters on not knowing how to work on a fairly regular basis in 02 and 03.

[Guest Loss]

HHH has said numerous times, on the WWE website, in the book Unscripted, and in other reports, that the wrestlers need to slow down and focus more on working holds and telling a story than doing highspots. He also told the roster they didn't know how to work in a fairly famous meeting in 2002.

 

HBK said recently in an interview that the reason Flair still wrestling is because he has to, since none of the young guys know how to work a match that tells a story because they rely too much on highspots.

[pochorenella 0]

Yes, now I remember that HHH speech.

 

About young guys relying too much on highspots, it's partially true, but I believe it doesn't apply that much in current WWE. They're very few and far between. In other promotions I couldn't really say, but I've seen some stuff from both ROH and TNA that do so. Not to say that all they do is highspots, but you see a TON of them that make no coherent story sense.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

And HHH's matches have been so coherent since he came back from the quad injury.

[Guest Loss]

HHH's point wasn't far off, but when he's no better himself about taking shortcuts, that's where the problem lies. I agree with some of what he said, but considering the source, it was ill-placed.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Getting into a wrestling discussion in these parts is like begging for a headache, but I can't ignore iggmcfly's statement about the HBK / HHH storyline that set up their SS '02 match being great. I found the match itself to be too plodding and without purpose throughout, but I had no interest going into the match because of the storyline.

 

It's been two years, but perhaps you need to think harder about the storyline and some of the negative ramifications it had in the company. First, it brought Shawn back to the main event scene. I was always an HBK fan (his original heel stint, anyway), but when he retired in 1998, he should've stayed that way. Instead, his "amazing" comeback in 2002 put him in the main event picture without doing much in the way of actually earning it. Let's not forget how rusty he was or the fact that he looked like a 160-pound girl. Looking at him during that time, it was laughable to think of him as a main event sort of guy.

 

Then you had the aforementioned storyline that built the match. Most people figured HHH was the guy who beatdown Shawn in the parking lot weeks prior to the event, but we still had to go through that ordeal during an entire episode of RAW where HHH more or less punked out the entire heel portion of the RAW roster while he was playing the concerned friend of Shawn's.

 

If this wasn't bad enough, a lot of the heels were together at the time of the confrontation, which basically made HHH look better than three or four heels at a time. Instead of a group like the Un-Americans, who he confronted, stepping up or beating him down, they acted like a bunch of schmucks, apparently because HHH was just that damn frightful. Big deal, you may say, but it didn't exactly make the rest of the heels look to intimidating after they backed down from just one guy.

 

And maybe it's just because I can't stand either guy anymore, but a lot of you are really generous with your snowflakes for their matches. SS was a dull spotfest, Armageddon was complete and utter trash, not to mention no other match got quite the build that one did. Their RAW match was probably the best of the crop, but it was overshadowed by the abortion of a main event they put on at the Royal Rumble. No bias one way or the other with that one; it was just a terrible match with a lot of blood trying to cover that fact that they lied around the ring 60 percent of the time.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

The Raw match between HHH amd Shawn is very good not great. They do rely on chops and punches as transition moves way too much but the psychology is sound and there are some nice transitions besides the punches and chops. One of those transitions is when Trip does the high knee after a whip and hurt's it. This gives Shawn tiime to recover and it transitions to Shawn on offense, as Shawn start's to work on the leg with the knee breaker and the figure four. HHH selling is great because I remember some people thought that it was a legit injury beacause of HHH previous leg problems. The match is slow at times but I like 1970's matches which were just as slow. The finish sucks but I understand why they did it. HHH's blade job was not needed and only took away from the match. The Raw match is still their best one on one match and was the best free tv match of 2003.

[Guest Choken One]

The Backlash match was worse than the WMXX match by alot and you seem to overate both.(that's your taste I guess) The WMXX match had tighter pacing inovative spots and never really dragged like the Backlash match did. They both had no deep psychology but that's to be expected from WWE matches. Also the storyline told throught the WMXX match was superior to the Backlash match.

 

Umm, there was a lot of psycology in the match actually... why does every fan seem to think the only kind of psycology is working a body part. Psycology is telling a story in the match and that story MIGHT be working a body part before putting on their finishing submission which is on that body party to win the match. It MIGHT be working a body part to stop the opponent hitting their own finisher (ie working the leg so that they can't hit a superkick. It might not even be working a body part, it can just be trying everything they can to pin the opponent but them kicking out every time. Their was a hell of a lot of psycology in the match, the psycology of all three of them putting everything on the line to win the match, all three of them refusing to give up, or trying to stop other people giving up because the belt changed hands if anyone got pinned, or the fact that Benoit was always going for the crossface, shawn michaels was always going for the superkick and HHH was always going for the pedigree because they knew if they got their finishers they'd win, same with everyone avoiding the other finishers because they knew they were beaten if they were hit with it.

 

Psycology is a lot more than just working a body part ffs, theirs a lot put into it, people should stop talking about what they don't understand.

 

Plus, to whoever said it. There is NO such thing as a "correct" star rating, it's all one persons perception. I personally think star ratings are stupid as no 2 people will see a match the same way. I personally think HHH/HBK HIAC was a great match, but a lot of people seem to disagree. Why? I think it's because WWE seemed to be building up a highspot filled match when they went out and did an incredible wrestling match.

 

Plus what is it with people always rating "workrate", I couldn't care less if a match has a great "workrate" if people go out and entertain me then i'm happy. if the LIVE CROWD enjoys it then they've gone and done their job. Why should Nick Dinsmore go out and kill himself when he gets the best reatction on the show by doing some great comedy stuff. And people are complaining about the HIAC... did you HEAR the pop wen HHH won and the ovation HBK got. They did their job and entertained the live crowd and got a great reaction

Triple H Vs Mick Foley

Triple H Vs The Rock

The Rock Vs Steve Austin

The Rock Vs Chris Jericho

Kurt Angle Vs Chris Benoit

 

Are the only modern era feuds (1997 to 2004) to consistantly churn out good-great matches.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Ricky B read the post I posted since you seem to think that I only think that body part work is psychology. In that post I describe a single spot at the WMXX match which tells a story in it's own and progresses the match very well. At the Backlash match the table spot is contrived and has less meaning.

[iggymcfly 0]

Getting into a wrestling discussion in these parts is like begging for a headache, but I can't ignore iggmcfly's statement about the HBK / HHH storyline that set up their SS '02 match being great. I found the match itself to be too plodding and without purpose throughout, but I had no interest going into the match because of the storyline.

It's been two years, but perhaps you need to think harder about the storyline and some of the negative ramifications it had in the company. First, it brought Shawn back to the main event scene. I was always an HBK fan (his original heel stint, anyway), but when he retired in 1998, he should've stayed that way. Instead, his "amazing" comeback in 2002 put him in the main event picture without doing much in the way of actually earning it. Let's not forget how rusty he was or the fact that he looked like a 160-pound girl. Looking at him during that time, it was laughable to think of him as a main event sort of guy.

Then you had the aforementioned storyline that built the match. Most people figured HHH was the guy who beatdown Shawn in the parking lot weeks prior to the event, but we still had to go through that ordeal during an entire episode of RAW where HHH more or less punked out the entire heel portion of the RAW roster while he was playing the concerned friend of Shawn's.

If this wasn't bad enough, a lot of the heels were together at the time of the confrontation, which basically made HHH look better than three or four heels at a time. Instead of a group like the Un-Americans, who he confronted, stepping up or beating him down, they acted like a bunch of schmucks, apparently because HHH was just that damn frightful. Big deal, you may say, but it didn't exactly make the rest of the heels look to intimidating after they backed down from just one guy.

 

I don't understand what could have possibly been wrong with the HHH/HBK storyline going into SS 2002. HBK was a multiple time former WWE Champion who had main evented WM the last match before having to leave due to a debilitating injury, so I'd certainly say he was a credible main eventer. Then, he comes back to hang with his buddies, (first Kevin Nash, and later HHH). HHH, meanwhile is not getting very good face pops, and is jealous of HBK's popularity.

 

Fearful of falling back into HBK's shadow where he lingered for years in DX, HHH tries to subordinate Shawn by injuring him. Then afterward, he plays his protector so that he can leech greater status off of Shawn. However, Shawn discovers his scheme and feels utterly betrayed by his former best friend to the point that he comes out of retirement to face him at Summerslam.

 

That is a great epic story, and it was executed to perfection. The promo HBK delivered "via satellite" after discovering HHH was the culprit showed real fire, the intensity of which has not been seen since by anyone since on the WWE roster. You felt his betrayal, you felt his anger, and you felt his pain. Then, they delivered just a taste of revenge on Raw the next week, to give a little taste of what was coming at the PPV, but still leave the viewer wanting more.

 

Now granted, they let the story slip a little bit when they picked it up going into Survivor Series, diluting it with the Elimination Chamber, and then focusing it on dumb shit like passing the torch. (WTF, he came back from a career-ending injury due to his hatred of HHH; the feud has nothing to do with passing the torch from one generation to the next.) However, going into Summerslam, I thought it was perfect. If you focused on the actual exciting, passionate elements of the story instead of: "Wrestler A made Wrestler B look bad when he talked to him in the hall" and "Wrestler C shouldn't get to win matches because he might not be able to wrestle full time", you likely would have appreciated it too. The build for the match at SS was near perfect, and probably better than the build for any other match the WWE has done in the last 2 years.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Okay, was this "epic" storyline worth ruining the credibility of just about every heel on the RAW roster at the time? I know they wanted to go with the "OMG SWERVE!@!~!!" angle, but they did it at a the cost of most of the heels looking like wimps.

 

That is a great epic story, and it was executed to perfection. The promo HBK delivered "via satellite" after discovering HHH was the culprit showed real fire, the intensity of which has not been seen since by anyone since on the WWE roster. You felt his betrayal, you felt his anger, and you felt his pain. Then, they delivered just a taste of revenge on Raw the next week, to give a little taste of what was coming at the PPV, but still leave the viewer wanting more.

 

Oh, puleaze. I vividly remember that awful main event segment. It went on for a good 20 minutes, the crowd was dead silent and just about everyone on the 'net hated the damn thing, with some even calling it one of the worst segments on WWE TV ever. I don't know if I'd go that far, but considering that came before things like the Katie Vick angle, maybe they weren't too far off. It was a terrible segment that didn't make me want to see what would happen next or made me want more; it just made me wonder why the hell they were going through with this crap.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

HHH's excuse was that he was protecting Shawn by showing him that he wasn't fit to wrestle.

 

Jealousy only came up well _after_ Summerslam.

[iggymcfly 0]

That's bullshit. Shawn wasn't even considering wrestling until after HHH beat him up. Jealousy was the whole basis of the feud. Later on, when they involved Flair and started talking about passing the torch and staring yourself in the mirror was when it got stupid.

[pochorenella 0]

Later on, when they involved Flair and started talking about passing the torch and staring yourself in the mirror was when it got stupid.

 

Actually, I thought that promo where Shawn said to Flair that he "took the torch from him" was pretty terrific.

[Australian Pride 0]

Triple H Vs Mick Foley

Triple H Vs The Rock

The Rock Vs Steve Austin

The Rock Vs Chris Jericho

Kurt Angle Vs Chris Benoit

 

Are the only modern era feuds (1997 to 2004) to consistantly churn out good-great matches.

Even though the weren't fighting over the World title, I'd throw Jericho v Benoit in there as well. And also the Rock v Foley in late 98/early 99 had some belting matches in it.

[Guest LiberalFlip]

HHH has 'foils' and 'friends' too, but they're all in his shadow, just like all of Dusty's were in his shadow. Nikita Koloff. Magnum TA. Sting. Lex Luger. The Road Warriors. Ricky Morton. Barry Windham. Every babyface that got over under Crockett was strongly involved with Dusty

 

Just like all of the Horseman were in Flair’s shadow until he needed a bitch boy and turned Luger babyface. Meanwhile, you’re right, every babyface got over with help from Dusty’s rub until their were eventually fed to placate Flair’s ego. Almost all of the above mentioned jobbed to Flair sans Magnum whose career was cut short. Magnum would have joined that list, believe-DAT-playa.

 

Dusty was even getting booed as early as 1985 when feuding with Ric Flair (watch the tapes sometime), so he obviously knew his position was a fragile one.

 

C’mon, don’t re-write history. Dusty was a very popular baby face in the mid-80’s despite the jeers of a few Flair marks…and his popularity was not all because of Flair, considering he had a nice money rivalry with Tully Blanchard. I’ll be the first to admit that Dusty’s popularity began to fade by late-87 -1988, and his trying to maintain his status was probably detrimental to the product. Then again, I am not on a crusade to make Dusty out to be the Patron Saint

 

people still insist that Flair was some type of sneaky political monster in the 80s when nothing could be further from truth. Flair had no power. He often suggested storylines, but Crockett or Dusty would be the ones to greenlight it or turn it down. It's no different from the current WWE model where all praise and blame should lie on the shoulders of Vince and no one else

 

Riiight… Crockett and Dusty demanded that Flair go from 1983 to 1990 as the World Champion without doing a meaningful job. They also forced Flair to make the Horsemen the end all be all group for practically half a decade without any heel even getting a sniff of the main event.

 

Against Flair’s protests they turned Tully Blanchard from a top heel into Screech to Flairs’ Zach Morris. They threatened Flair with bodily harm by commanding him to turn Starrcade 87 into a joke by making Flair look like Superman and Ronnie Garvin out to be a schmuck. They coerced Flair into riding in their private jet. And to prove their power to Flair they made sure that he beat every single up an coming babyface.

 

I know you are covering for your boy ala Meltzer, but the truth is Crockett was the furthest thing from a McMahon type. Crockett was an aloof daddy’s boy who was ambivalent to wrestling in general and the NWA in particular. He left the NWA to Dusty AND FLAIR who both used the opportunity to turn the territory into their ego fueled playfield. When push came to shove, Dusty was shown the door. It was a constant power struggle between the two.

 

Flair is responsible for anyone even caring about Luger. Or Sting. Or Dusty after 1984. He got Magnum TA over in the NWA. He was the only heel over enough to turn Russian monster Nikita Koloff babyface in the middle of a cold war. He put Hogan over strong right off the bat on WCW turf. He routinely traveled around to every territory making the top guys in every area look like a million bucks -- Kerry Von Erich, Ted DiBiase, Barry Windham and Jerry Lawler are some of the more famous examples

 

And in the meantime Flair would have cured cancer if not for that jerk Dusty Rhodes.

 

This is just all wrong. The most glaring is Nikita Koloff. Nikita was turned babyface by Dusty’s RUB in a match against the Andersons. Flair had nothing to do with it. Nikita got monster pops, so of course Flair couldn’t wait to get his hands on him. He smashed Koloff at Starrcade ‘86(in a miserable match, probably because fans knew the outcome) and sent Koloff on a reverse rocket ride back to the mid-card…Mission complete, another threat vanquished.

 

So of course Flair gets credit for “making” Koloff while HHH gets killed for “ruining” RVD’s career…ugh.

 

Yeah, and Jerry Lawler was just some poor unknown sap until Flair got in the ring with him. I know you are not trying to insinuate that Flair somehow made guys like Von Erich and Lawler, considering they were already huge stars. You’re right about Sting tho. A point that Meltzer cant help himself to bring up like every other week. Flair did take his sweet time in finally jobbing to him huh?

 

Flair never held anyone down because there was no one in a position to be held down. Name one wrestler, any wrestler, that could have taken Flair's place as the new top guy and delivered consistently at that level from then on. Then, tell me what Flair did to sabotage that person. Then, take one of the big babyfaces, any of them, from the Crockett era -- Luger, Dusty, Sting, etc. -- and tell me why they never reached Hogan status. Then, tell me if that was because of a personal flaw, the booking, or Ric Flair

 

The old standby: Nobody was as good as Flair. The first part of that paragraph is like the old Tootsie Roll commercials, the world may never know. We will never know if a heel like Rick Rude could have ascended beyond wrestling Wahoo McDaniel, because he was never given the chance. A more then common theme. And we already covered all of the babyfaces in the NWA during that era that were trampled on.

 

To say Hogan status is misleading. For instance, Barry Windham would not have been Hulk Hogan (would have been worth a try)…that said its interesting you bring him up. While the WWF was sending fans home happy with Hogan winning, the NWA had a cocky heel beating or outsmarting every single good guy in the company, all the while cackling on the mike by flaunting his wealth and rubbing his success in their faces. He never got his comeuppance. On a side note, Flair didn’t start jobbing until Hogan came to town in 1994, as Flair was finally outgunned politically.

 

I’m just going off of superficial evidence, and common sense. Unlike you trying to act as if you were shadowing Flair for all of those years. Everything benefited Flair, so at best what you are doing is being naïve.

 

It's often cited that because Flair traveled to shows in private jets that he was getting special favors. Those aren't exactly the type of favors that affect us as fans, so why the hell do they matter?

 

That’s weak. It didn’t affect us, so why should we care? I’m sure all of the other wrestlers were just thrilled at the fact that Flair and his boys were riding around in Limos and private jets. Just great for morale. And yes, I know that Dusty was on those flights as well. But to hear people spin it, its just good ol’ high livin Nature Boy. I’m sure you guys would have no objection if HHH & Co were doing the same. I take that back, maybe you wouldn’t, because that would then force you to say the same about Flair.

 

The reason his (Dusty) title win in 1986 was so short was to build toward Flair v Magnum all through 1987

 

You’re right, Magnum would have been fed to Flair at some point. To explain Dusty’s win, maybe it was an attempt to give paying customers hope that a dickhead like Flair could actually lose. I mean, Flair had only held the belt for two years straight up until that point. Of course, Flair got the belt back within days, which naturally speaks to his lack of political power. Power that would eventually lead to NWA bankruptcy

 

In terms of charisma, Dusty blows HHH away. In terms of controlling the company and keeping everyone else below a certain level, they're exactly alike. HHH is merely a wolf in sheep's clothing, or perhaps a Dusty in Ric Flair clothing.

 

In that regard HHH is a weak imitation of Ric Flair. HHH didn’t have the sense to get Dave Meltzer on his side, thus turning “wrestling’s leading journalist” into his own personal groupie who will cover for his every misdeed no matter the blows to credibility. HHH also didn’t learn that you should go seven years without a meaningful job, not merely a few months. HHH also didn’t learn how to put a company into Chapter 11.

 

Last but not least, HHH didn’t learn how to work the same dumb ass silly spots into every match, work the same exact match night in and night out, and yet convince everyone he was “the greatest ever“. What’s up with all of this HHH adapting to the different styles of wrestlers, and actually trying to evolve as a worker. What an asshole. Too many drugs I'm taking…Benoit cant be champ

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

You may be close to the mark there. Like Steamboat, Benoit lacks in the personality department, but is brilliant in the ring. Despite the lack of personality, both were popular with the fans based on ability and a hard work ethic.

 

But, to reverse the question - who was Flair's Jericho (ie HHH's personal bitch)?

Luger. He never got that clean win.

[Cherry Blossom Viscount 0]

Wow. Just wow. I want to see the rebuttal to Liberal Flip's post. He gave an opposing viewpoint with clever sarcasm, yet no hint of flaming in a coherent and well thought out manner. Amazing.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Just like all of the Horseman were in Flair’s shadow until he needed a bitch boy and turned Luger babyface. Meanwhile, you’re right, every babyface got over with help from Dusty’s rub until their were eventually fed to placate Flair’s ego. Almost all of the above mentioned jobbed to Flair sans Magnum whose career was cut short. Magnum would have joined that list, believe-DAT-playa.

 

You really need to go back and actually watch the Horseman days. Each Horseman had his job and division to worry about. The Andersons were the tag team of the group. Blanchard was the mid-card level guy and Flair was the World Title contender of the group. It was often established that Flair couldn't hold onto the Title without the Horsemen having their back where it's NEVER been established that Triple H needs Evolution for anything.

 

Sting and Luger are where they are today because of Flair. Clash I was Sting's coming out party because he took Flair to the limit. Let's also not forget that Sting won the blowoff to this feud in the end while it also being shown that Flair wasn't on Sting's level after a certain point. No one has been made a star by Triple H yet.

 

C’mon, don’t re-write history. Dusty was a very popular baby face in the mid-80’s despite the jeers of a few Flair marks…and his popularity was not all because of Flair, considering he had a nice money rivalry with Tully Blanchard. I’ll be the first to admit that Dusty’s popularity began to fade by late-87 -1988, and his trying to maintain his status was probably detrimental to the product. Then again, I am not on a crusade to make Dusty out to be the Patron Saint

 

Yes and Dusty wanted to job Flair to Rick Steiner in under 5 minutes at one point. Dusty's booking was all about railroading Flair's credibility anyway that he could get away with.

 

Riiight… Crockett and Dusty demanded that Flair go from 1983 to 1990 as the World Champion without doing a meaningful job. They also forced Flair to make the Horsemen the end all be all group for practically half a decade without any heel even getting a sniff of the main event.

 

What heel did they even have that was on Flair's level? Koloff or Sullivan were about it as far as any kind of credible upper card heels in the NWA.

 

Against Flair’s protests they turned Tully Blanchard from a top heel into Screech to Flairs’ Zach Morris. They threatened Flair with bodily harm by commanding him to turn Starrcade 87 into a joke by making Flair look like Superman and Ronnie Garvin out to be a schmuck. They coerced Flair into riding in their private jet. And to prove their power to Flair they made sure that he beat every single up an coming babyface.

 

Blanchard was starting to get old by this time and he still had a big run in the tag division with Anderson.

 

Ronnie Garvin was a schmuck by this point in his career. The fact that you even defend him shows how little you know about this time frame. He was a joke and it was an even bigger joke that he even touched the NWA Title.

 

What does Flair riding in a private jet have to do with anything? Maybe the man doesn't like being crowded on planes.

 

I know you are covering for your boy ala Meltzer, but the truth is Crockett was the furthest thing from a McMahon type. Crockett was an aloof daddy’s boy who was ambivalent to wrestling in general and the NWA in particular. He left the NWA to Dusty AND FLAIR who both used the opportunity to turn the territory into their ego fueled playfield. When push came to shove, Dusty was shown the door. It was a constant power struggle between the two.

 

What power did Flair even have before 1989 other than possessing the NWA Title? Notice when Flair got the book he immediately put Steamboat over, gave Sting a title and turned Luger into a top of the card heel. He also let Funk absolutely destroy him once he got the belt back and missed a few months of tv to sell the injuries. Yep, lot of ego stroking there.

 

This is just all wrong. The most glaring is Nikita Koloff. Nikita was turned babyface by Dusty’s RUB in a match against the Andersons. Flair had nothing to do with it. Nikita got monster pops, so of course Flair couldn’t wait to get his hands on him. He smashed Koloff at Starrcade ‘86(in a miserable match, probably because fans knew the outcome) and sent Koloff on a reverse rocket ride back to the mid-card…Mission complete, another threat vanquished.

 

Koloff turned face because of his feud with Magnum TA. And how exactly did Flair smash him at Starcade? The match was a non-finish where Koloff had Flair totally beat before getting DQed for knocking Tommy Young out a second time.

 

Yeah, and Jerry Lawler was just some poor unknown sap until Flair got in the ring with him. I know you are not trying to insinuate that Flair somehow made guys like Von Erich and Lawler, considering they were already huge stars. You’re right about Sting tho. A point that Meltzer cant help himself to bring up like every other week. Flair did take his sweet time in finally jobbing to him huh?

 

Sting was still extremely new to the NWA by the time the Clash I happened. He wasn't ready for the top title yet but Flair did give him a ton of momentum leaving that match. Flair also gave Sting a rub by bringing his feud with the Great Muta to the main events. 2 years back then was not taking your time to job out to someone.

 

The old standby: Nobody was as good as Flair. The first part of that paragraph is like the old Tootsie Roll commercials, the world may never know. We will never know if a heel like Rick Rude could have ascended beyond wrestling Wahoo McDaniel, because he was never given the chance. A more then common theme. And we already covered all of the babyfaces in the NWA during that era that were trampled on.

 

Again, what heel even came close to being anywhere on Flair's level work wise or heat wise. Rude wasn't even that big of a name until his WWF run.

 

To say Hogan status is misleading. For instance, Barry Windham would not have been Hulk Hogan (would have been worth a try)…that said its interesting you bring him up. While the WWF was sending fans home happy with Hogan winning, the NWA had a cocky heel beating or outsmarting every single good guy in the company, all the while cackling on the mike by flaunting his wealth and rubbing his success in their faces. He never got his comeuppance. On a side note, Flair didn’t start jobbing until Hogan came to town in 1994, as Flair was finally outgunned politically.

 

You completely overlook the fact that Flair didn't win cleanly that often at all. It was usually understood that he needed the Horsemen or cheating tactics to retain the belt over the superior faces. Flair was only a killer in the ring when he needed to win the belt back.

 

That’s weak. It didn’t affect us, so why should we care? I’m sure all of the other wrestlers were just thrilled at the fact that Flair and his boys were riding around in Limos and private jets. Just great for morale. And yes, I know that Dusty was on those flights as well. But to hear people spin it, its just good ol’ high livin Nature Boy. I’m sure you guys would have no objection if HHH & Co were doing the same. I take that back, maybe you wouldn’t, because that would then force you to say the same about Flair.

 

How Flair got to shows is none of your business. You don't know why he did yet feel comfortable making him out as some terrible person for it. Maybe he didn't like crowded planes. Maybe he liked to get there a little earlier than everyone else. This is just like people jumping all over Lesnar for buying his own plane to travel in.

 

You’re right, Magnum would have been fed to Flair at some point. To explain Dusty’s win, maybe it was an attempt to give paying customers hope that a dickhead like Flair could actually lose. I mean, Flair had only held the belt for two years straight up until that point. Of course, Flair got the belt back within days, which naturally speaks to his lack of political power. Power that would eventually lead to NWA bankruptcy

 

Or the fact that there weren't many drawing faces on the roster. Flair hardly ever put himself over the business. Arguing for Luger is pointless as it's been proven that he was never capable of drawing as the top dog. He still put Steamboat and Sting over when it was shown that they were capable draws. Remember Dusty wanted Flair to job to Rick Steiner in under 5 minutes at one point. That needs to be said again to put Dusty's booking into perspective. TA was a proven draw and I'm pretty certain he would've dominated the late 80s as far as having the belt goes had he not been hurt.

 

In that regard HHH is a weak imitation of Ric Flair. HHH didn’t have the sense to get Dave Meltzer on his side, thus turning “wrestling’s leading journalist” into his own personal groupie who will cover for his every misdeed no matter the blows to credibility. HHH also didn’t learn that you should go seven years without a meaningful job, not merely a few months. HHH also didn’t learn how to put a company into Chapter 11.

 

Last but not least, HHH didn’t learn how to work the same dumb ass silly spots into every match, work the same exact match night in and night out, and yet convince everyone he was “the greatest ever“. What’s up with all of this HHH adapting to the different styles of wrestlers, and actually trying to evolve as a worker. What an asshole. Too many drugs I'm taking…Benoit cant be champ

 

Do you even watch the WWF? Jericho, Booker T, RVD, Kurt Angle and Kane have all gotten the burial job from Triple H since his return in 2002. And what meaningful job has Triple H done? Shelton? He can't even get on the shows consistently and it's hasn't been mentioned since right afterwards. A draw with Flair did more for someone's career than a pinfall over Triple H meant.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! What a fucking joke. You were making good points till the last paragraph. Triple H is the king of repeated spots in matches. Watch Bad Blood where all he and HBK do is redo spots from their other matches. Or how about when Triple H just decided he was going to beat a bunch of guys with the sleeper hold one month?