The last great world title match

[Guest Ray]

All he said was it was a poor Kobashi vs Misawa match. I poste that but expanded on the reasons. The way Kobashi sells his arm in the 1/20/97 match is beautiful. Angle doesn't sell well at all. He no sells a suplex just to do his pop up superplex.

You mean he no-sells a german just like Misawa did in 1/20/97?

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Ray, I knew that you were going to mention the German. I had that match rated at ****3/4 and why I couldn't give it ***** was because of the german suplex that Misawa didn't sell and some of the rib work which I found kind of pointless and repetitive(Kobashi used like 6 kicks to the gut of the ropes) but the armwork is great and the selling aside from Misawa no selling one move was masterfull. Burning Lariat's from the knees were awesome. The Rumble selling issues are not minor. It's just like me saying since I'm a Shawn Michaels mark that the kip up after the back work is a minor issue. It's a major issue and I look at it as such. Any time I judge my favorite wrestler's matches I still try to look at it from a no favoriable point of view.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Didn't we go through this just the other week?

 

I don't feel like repeating myself but for the record I have the Benoit vs Angle match at 4 1/4 stars.

 

One new point here is the comparison to Kobashi vs Misawa. Which Kobashi vs Misawa match?? From the first match when Misawa was under the hood to their very last match (I only haven't seen their 03 match) they share different qualities. 1/20/97 which is one of the best matches I've ever seen is different than their first ever match and both of those are different that their 00 match.

 

I'm going to take a guess here and say the comparison is to the latest Kobashi vs Misawa bouts where they just went completely crazy and as a result don't have that beautiful flow that is present in the 1/20/97. One of the differences between those matches and the Rumble match is the Rumble match manages to have a better flow. THe flow in the last few Kobashi/Misawa matches is cut off at points while the flow in the Rumble manages to continually build and build until to it gets to its exciting climax.

 

They didn't build up their damn finishers. In the Unforgiven match at least Benoit worked on the shoulder to build up the crossface(shoulderbreaker, flying headbutt to the shoulder). You dont always have to build up a finisher but what's the point of doing a million suplexes if you can't sell them properly or make them matter

 

You don't have to build up to your finishers. Besides Benoit and Angle did build up to their finishers anyway.

 

The suplexes matter. They were constant with the the oneupmanship (who's the best technical wrestler?) and desperation theme they had going through the bout. All of Benoit's suplexes and his headbutt off of the rope set up Angle for the crossfaces. It's what Benoit always does.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Ray, I knew that you were going to mention the German. I had that match rated at ****3/4 and why I couldn't give it ***** was because of the german suplex that Misawa didn't sell and some of the rib work which I found kind of pointless and repetitive(Kobashi used like 6 kicks to the gut of the ropes) but the armwork is great and the selling aside from Misawa no selling one move was masterfull. Burning Lariat's from the knees were awesome. The Rumble selling issues are not minor. It's just like me saying since I'm a Shawn Michaels mark that the kip up after the back work is a minor issue. It's a major issue and I look at it as such. Any time I judge my favorite wrestler's matches I still try to look at it from a no favoriable point of view.

Look it at it this way. The fighting spirit pop up of the german suplex was almost getting accepted at the time. People accepted it. Kobashi accepted it and as a result was prepared for it when he puts Misawas in the armbar. The move actually fit well into the flow of the match and resulted in some smart wrestling.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

That's true it's just that some of their(Misawa vs Kobashi) matches like the 10/25/95 or their 2003 match they go overboard on the no selling. I understand the fighting spirit thing but they didn't have to do it. That's not what really hurt the match for me in terms of not going *****. Like I said some of the arm work and rib work is a little too repetitive and a little more variety would have been better. I still consider that match one of the top ten matches of all time.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Also the thing is I'll take the last Kobashi vs Misawa match over the Rumble match because although the selling is horrable in both matches at least the Misawa vs Kobashi match is more varied in terms of the moves they use unlike Angle vs Benoit where they must have done about 10 germans and five belly to belly suplexes.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah, can't watch anything unless it has a nice happy ending, right?

 

Right.

 

They didn't have the balls to have a conclusive finish so they DQ'd Austin. It's cheap booking. It's a bad finish. It didn't accomplish _anything_.

[Guest Ray]

They didn't have the balls to have a conclusive finish so they DQ'd Austin.

Wrong. They needed to keep the title on Austin. They needed to keep Angle strong. Solution? Tell a great story where a DQ is the logical conclusion of the story.

 

It's cheap booking.

No, it's not. It's wonderful booking.

 

It's a bad finish.

No, it wasn't. It was a great finish capping off a great story.

 

It didn't accomplish _anything_.

Wrong. It made Austin look more cunning and ruthless. It made Angle look great, as he survived the best Austin threw at him.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Wildpeagusus by your username I can tell you probably really like Benoit. Like I said I have reason's for not thinking that the Rumble match is a classic and I prefer their Unforgiven match. Don't get me wrong I like Benoit but I feel that particular match while being fun to watch doesn't hold up when being looked at closely from my point of view. So no dissrespect because I willn't change your opinion and you willn't change mine. In terms of your star rating for the match the highest North American match(Flair vs Steamboat Clash VI) I rate is ****1/2 so ***-***1/4 for the Rumble match in my opinion is fair since Benoit had better matches in the WWE/WWF, WCW,ECW, and Japan than the Rumble match. The best Benoit match for me is Wild Pegasus vs Great Sasuke ****1/2.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

Wildpeagusus by your username I can tell you probably really like Benoit. Like I said I have reason's for not thinking that the Rumble match is a classic and I prefer their Unforgiven match. Don't get me wrong I like Benoit but I feel that particular match while being fun to watch doesn't hold up when being looked at closely from my point of view. So no dissrespect because I willn't change your opinion and you willn't change mine. In terms of your star rating for the match the highest North American match(Flair vs Steamboat Clash VI) I rate is ****1/2 so ***-***1/4 for the Rumble match in my opinion is fair since Benoit had better matches in the WWE/WWF, WCW,ECW, and Japan than the Rumble match. The best Benoit match for me is Wild Pegasus vs Great Sasuke ****1/2.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Wildpeagusus by your username I can tell you probably really like Benoit. Like I said I have reason's for not thinking that the Rumble match is a classic and I prefer their Unforgiven match. Don't get me wrong I like Benoit but I feel that particular match while being fun to watch doesn't hold up when being looked at closely from my point of view. Wildpeagusus by your username I can tell you probably really like Benoit. In terms of your star rating for the match the highest North American match(Flair vs Steamboat Clash VI) I rate is ****1/2 so ***-***1/4 for the Rumble match in my opinion is fair since Benoit had better matches in the WWE/WWF, WCW,ECW, and Japan than the Rumble match. The best Benoit match for me is Wild Pegasus vs Great Sasuke ****1/2.

Wildpeagusus by your username I can tell you probably really like Benoit

 

Some would probably say the word "obsessed" would work better.

 

So no dissrespect because I willn't change your opinion and you willn't change mine

 

No disrespect. It's usually good to look at matches from different perspectives and discuss them. You might learn something and respect a match a little more. I respect you because you don't have to insult someone or use profanity to make a point when arguing a match unlike some hardcore viewers out there in the internet world.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Listen, argue over what *'s of a match Angle/Benoit, Angle/Austin, Mawasaha/Kobashi(Never heard of these guys, sorry about the spelling) is useless.

 

Everybody has personal preference, everyone rates matches differently. I'm sure I have alot more *****'s matches the most of you guys.

 

I say let's just respect everyone's opinion.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Wrong. They needed to keep the title on Austin. They needed to keep Angle strong. Solution? Tell a great story where a DQ is the logical conclusion of the story.

 

Or... pussy-out and have a DQ. Yeah, I think "pussy-out and have a DQ" is more likely. Benoit lost to Angle and he still came out "strong". They didn't have to have anything "funny" at the end of it, they just didn't trust that it could have been done. They didn't have the balls to actually have their "big face" lose or Austin drop the belt. They couldn't think of any other way so they just did the DQ finish.

 

No, it's not. It's wonderful booking.

 

No. Pissing off the fans isn't "wonderful booking". Having a match go over 20 minutes to have a finish of "well... Austin lost but Angle didn't win and nothing actually happened" is BAD booking.

 

Wrong. It made Austin look more cunning and ruthless.

 

Established at WM 17 and throughout his failure of a heel run

 

It made Angle look great, as he survived the best Austin threw at him.

 

Angle "looked great" on shows leading up to SS. It was the typical "Heel weak, Face strong" crap that they've been doing forever; it didn't make Angle any more distinctive in his face character cause ya know what? It was done better with Austin himself 4 years earlier vs. Bret Hart. Angle's "big win" at Unforgiven as American Superhero in his hometown in a Post 9/11 world certainly was disappointing all-things-considered, so this match didn't elevate him in the eyes of the fans. He was back to being a joke with "Milkomania running wild" the next night after SS. Again, it didn't accomplish ANYTHING.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

It's all good Wildpegasus now I understand . I remeber the first time I saw Kandori vs Hokuto without knowing the actual story. It was a great match(not the classic ***** I consider it now) but after I found out all the back story and the psychology to the match I undersood why people consider it the best women's match of all time. Watching a match I hope I can learn something new. That's the beauty of pro wrestling, in great matches you find something new all the time. Different people see different things about matches so I try to take into account another persons perspective because they might notice something I don't.

[Australian Pride 0]

It's a bad finish.

No, it wasn't. It was a great finish capping off a great story.

 

Are you saying that the first time you saw the match you weren't the slightest bit let down by that finish?

 

In hindsight it was the right way to go, but on first viewing there's no way you could say that.

[BHK 0]

Listen, argue over what *'s of a match Angle/Benoit, Angle/Austin, Mawasaha/Kobashi(Never heard of these guys, sorry about the spelling) is useless.

 

Everybody has personal preference, everyone rates matches differently. I'm sure I have alot more *****'s matches the most of you guys.

 

I say let's just respect everyone's opinion.

I'll agree with the above, however, I watched angle/austin again after what Ray said here:

 

Essentially, it's a comment on Austin's morals, the cunning, ruthless nature of his character, and what he's willing to do to keep his title. All throughout the match he's dangerously close to getting DQ'ed. He's trying to walk a thin line between hurting Angle and protecting the title he loves so much. He knows he'll keep the title if he gets DQ'ed. At one point the ref's yelling at him to stop and he just says "Well what are you gonna do?"

 

I don't think I've ever seen a match where the build to a DQ was done so well. It gets over Austin's paranoia, intelligence, and ruthlessness, and most importantly, his obsession to keep the title. It's the kind of thing a man like that would do. It's fantastic roleplaying and storytelling.

 

People always complain about this because Austin wouldn't "put over" Angle (which is ridiculous when he lets the guy survive three stunners and scare him into getting himself DQed), and overlook how good this is in a dramatic sense

 

 

I read that, and kept that in mind while re-watching the match. Now, I'm still slightly sour on the DQ finish, because it's still a non-finish. WWE seems to have this certain paranoia about making one guy look decisively beaten sometimes. However, it makes a lot more sense and I can understand why the ending was what it was now, so I like the match a lot more than i had on previous viewings. Ray's explanation made sense to me.

 

I've said this before in another thread, but the problem with threads like this is that people always end up arguing over star ratings, psycohlogy, etc. and they can never agree, and it jsut turns into two smarks arguing over the true meaning of selling, storytelling, and stuf like that. So to that.

 

However, one of the reasons why I do enjoy these types of threads is because people can explain and point out to me things that I myself didn't catch in a match, such as the above mentioned Angle/Austin encounter. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm definitely all for other people being able to make me enjoy a match more. So to that.

[Guest wildpegasus]

It's all good Wildpegasus now I understand . I remeber the first time I saw Kandori vs Hokuto without knowing the actual story. It was a great match(not the classic ***** I consider it now) but after I found out all the back story and the psychology to the match I undersood why people consider it the best women's match of all time. Watching a match I hope I can learn something new. That's the beauty of pro wrestling, in great matches you find something new all the time. Different people see different things about matches so I try to take into account another persons perspective because they might notice something I don't.

Knowing the backstory just makes a match all the more engrossing. For example I watched a match that I think only became available fairly rescently in the New Japan classics section. It was a tag match where Benoit pins Kanemoto with a headbutt and does a little promo afterwards. I had always wondered why Benoit was trying so hard for the headbutt in their March 95 title match. Now I know and it adds just that little bit more to a title match that I already enjoyed a lot.

[Guest Ray]

Or... pussy-out and have a DQ. Yeah, I think "pussy-out and have a DQ" is more likely.

Or...they needed to keep the title on Austin and not have Angle job.

 

Benoit lost to Angle and he still came out "strong". They didn't have to have anything "funny" at the end of it,

And...? I've seen a million "clean" finishes. Once in a while, I'd like to see something like this, where a DQ makes perfect sense within the context of the story. I've rarely seen a DQ finish work so well.

 

They didn't have the balls to actually have their "big face" lose or Austin drop the belt.

Yes, wanting to keep each man strong for very good reasons is a matter of no "balls."

 

They couldn't think of any other way so they just did the DQ finish.

Or...they thought of a great story which logically lead to a DQ, got a ton of heat on the heel and went with that.

 

No. Pissing off the fans isn't "wonderful booking".

No, getting heat on your top heel and support for your top face is. Which is what they did.

 

Having a match go over 20 minutes to have a finish of "well... Austin lost but Angle didn't win and nothing actually happened" is BAD booking.

Except something DID happen- Austin ruthlessly did what he had to do to keep his title, Angle survived what no one else had, and a great match resulted from it.

 

Established at WM 17 and throughout his failure of a heel run

Further defined at Summerslam and throughout his wonderful heel performances.

 

Angle "looked great" on shows leading up to SS. It was the typical "Heel weak, Face strong" crap that they've been doing forever; it didn't make Angle any more distinctive in his face character cause ya know what? It was done better with Austin himself 4 years earlier vs. Bret Hart.

You're reaching here. Yeah, Austin/Angle sucked because Austin/Bret was better.

 

Angle's "big win" at Unforgiven as American Superhero in his hometown in a Post 9/11 world certainly was disappointing all-things-considered, so this match didn't elevate him in the eyes of the fans. He was back to being a joke with "Milkomania running wild" the next night after SS.

So WWF screwing up AFTER Summerslam is proof that Summerslam was bad?

 

Again, it didn't accomplish ANYTHING.

Except it did. Ton of heat on Austin and made Angle look great.

 

Are you saying that the first time you saw the match you weren't the slightest bit let down by that finish?

 

In hindsight it was the right way to go, but on first viewing there's no way you could say that.

When I saw it I thought, "Damn that Austin! He's such a bastard. Angle got screwed there." Which is what they were going for. It completely worked and was a beautiful match.

 

I read that, and kept that in mind while re-watching the match. Now, I'm still slightly sour on the DQ finish, because it's still a non-finish. WWE seems to have this certain paranoia about making one guy look decisively beaten sometimes. However, it makes a lot more sense and I can understand why the ending was what it was now, so I like the match a lot more than i had on previous viewings. Ray's explanation made sense to me.

Even if you don't completely agree with me, I appreciate that you were willing to re-watch that. Thanks.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Or...they needed to keep the title on Austin and not have Angle job.

 

They didn't need to do either. That's the whole point of title matches - one guy wins, one guy loses. That's why they are (or at least "should be") important - the effects they have are dramatic. That's why people pay to see it; they want to see something happen. Nothing happened with Austin/Angle.

 

And...? I've seen a million "clean" finishes. Once in a while, I'd like to see something like this, where a DQ makes perfect sense within the context of the story. I've rarely seen a DQ finish work so well.

 

"Utter Nonsense" - Ray

 

 

Yes, wanting to keep each man strong for very good reasons is a matter of no "balls."

 

The reasons are... to have Angle spray Milk on Austin the next night? Get a fucking clue.

 

Or...they thought of a great story which logically lead to a DQ, got a ton of heat on the heel and went with that.

 

"Logically" they should have ended the bout before they did, but of course, nothing was logical about the decision to end a 20+ minute match with a DQ - unless you have no balls and aren't willing to make a sacrifice other-than-pissing-off-fans-in-the-bad-way. *Big laugh @ "a ton of heat"*

 

No, getting heat on your top heel and support for your top face is. Which is what they did.

 

Yeah, cause wasting the fans' time with a non-finish is worth doing as long as it gets heat... Russo? Is that you Vince? There was no other way that could have been done. None. Zero. Oh, wait, that would have meant someone would have lost! Ack! They NEEDED Austin as Champ because... err... um... they NEEDED Angle as the #1 Superman Babyface Who Can't Lose A Match because... uhhh... they have no balls?

 

Except something DID happen- Austin ruthlessly did what he had to do to keep his title, Angle survived what no one else had, and a great match resulted from it.

 

Which was already established at WM 17, so it was a moot point, and Angle did what babyfaces typically do so it wasn't a distinctive trait of Kurt Angle. Jesus, didn't I just type this ?

 

Further defined at Summerslam and throughout his wonderful heel performances.

 

Had the match not happened at Summerslam -at all-, would you still see Austin as "obsessive, paranoid, ruthless, and cunning"?. The answer is a yes, because they beaten the point into the ground by Summerslam. So why was this Summerslam match and finish important to the development of Austins character? Answer, it wasn't. So it didn't do anything that wasn't already done.

 

You're reaching here. Yeah, Austin/Angle sucked because Austin/Bret was better.

 

No, "Angle looked great" isn't relevant because in the WWE, that's what 99.9% of the babyfaces do. They beat up the cowardly heels. It's nothing that hasn't been done time and time and time and time again. Angle as a babyface sucked because he wasn't anything distinctive or special like Austin was at WM 13. I'm definitely reaching here, but unfortunately I'm reaching down to speak on your level of comprehension where I have to explain everything to you and you try to rest on crappy one liners not understanding that the objective itself of the match was BAD. The story was BAD. Because the finish was BAD. The resolution of the story was BAD; wrestling is a morality play and the moral of the story was "A man will do anything to have his gold", which was done at WM 17! The objective didn't do anything that hadn't already been done, thus making it 20+ minutes of NOTHING.

 

So WWF screwing up AFTER Summerslam is proof that Summerslam was bad?

 

Directly after? Of course. Getting Austin "insane heat" (orwhatever hyperbole you use) and giving Angle "amazing support" (again...) doesn't seem like the objective when you plan on having Angle spray him with milk the next night. Thus supporting my "they have no balls" claim. When the supposed effects of the match don't carry over _the next night_ they are meaningless. Nothing was accomplished.

 

 

When I saw it I thought, "Damn that Austin! He's such a bastard. Angle got screwed there." Which is what they were going for. It completely worked and was a beautiful match.

 

My thoughts: "What a fucking cop-out". That was one of the few PPVs I (and Curry) ordered and the finish was a let-down. The story was obvious, and even with that in mind, the resolution was completely unsatisfying.

[CanadianChick 0]

About the whole "Angle getting great support after Summerslam": He did? Funny how whenever he was in a match with RVD (before and after Unforgiven), they crowd wouldn't be all patrotic and chant "USA". Instead, they'd chant RVD. There is a reason that Angle turned heel shortly after No Mercy: he wasn't a good face at all. As RRR said, he was just a cookie cutter face. Even with the whole country being patrotic at the time, Angle still didn't get "great support". The only time he got a fantastic reaction is when he won the title in his hometown.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

And 99% of that heat was due to the fact that X-Pac was in the ring celebrating with him afterwards.

 

Oh, you know it's true. Pittsburgh is Pac Country, baby.

[Guest Ray]

They didn't need to do either.

Really? Yeah, there's NO reason to want to keep Angle strong or keep the title on Austin. No reason at all.

 

That's the whole point of title matches - one guy wins, one guy loses.

One guy did win...by DQ. One guy did lose...by DQ.

 

That's why they are (or at least "should be") important - the effects they have are dramatic.

The effect of this match was dramatic.

 

That's why people pay to see it; they want to see something happen. Nothing happened with Austin/Angle.

Something did happen. A great match happened.

 

The reasons are... to have Angle spray Milk on Austin the next night? Get a fucking clue.

Excuse me? That WWF screwed up *after* Summerslam is completely irrelevant.

 

"Logically" they should have ended the bout before they did, but of course, nothing was logical about the decision to end a 20+ minute match with a DQ - unless you have no balls and aren't willing to make a sacrifice other-than-pissing-off-fans-in-the-bad-way.

It was entirely logical to do a DQ considering the characters involved and the story told in the body of the match.

 

Yeah, cause wasting the fans' time with a non-finish is worth doing as long as it gets heat...

Giving them a great match with a great finish which fit perfectly with the characters and the story told is no waste of time.

 

Russo? Is that you Vince?

Yes, of course. I'm Vince Russo. Hello everyone.

 

There was no other way that could have been done. None.

Yes, because I said it was the only way. Wrong again. It was done this was because this way was a very good way.

 

Oh, wait, that would have meant someone would have lost! Ack! They NEEDED Austin as Champ because... err... um...

Because...without him the Alliance would have no champion and they were planning a Rock/Austin unification match.

 

they NEEDED Angle as the #1 Superman Babyface Who Can't Lose A Match because... uhhh...

Because...he's in the middle of a big push and it makes him look great to survive three stunners and drive Austin to DQ himself.

 

Which was already established at WM 17, so it was a moot point

So...because it was established at Mania 17, this means he should NEVER DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT AGAIN? Glad to know that when a character is established they should never again let the character act like such a man would act.

 

and Angle did what babyfaces typically do so it wasn't a distinctive trait of Kurt Angle.

What other babyface survived three stunners and drove Austin so mad he had to DQ himself? Rock is the only one who comes close.

 

Had the match not happened at Summerslam -at all-, would you still see Austin as "obsessive, paranoid, ruthless, and cunning"?. The answer is a yes, because they beaten the point into the ground by Summerslam. So why was this Summerslam match and finish important to the development of Austins character? Answer, it wasn't. So it didn't do anything that wasn't already done.

So...because it was established before Summerslam, Austin should NOT act like that at Summerslam? Yeah, sure.

 

No, "Angle looked great" isn't relevant because in the WWE, that's what 99.9% of the babyfaces do. They beat up the cowardly heels. It's nothing that hasn't been done time and time and time and time again. Angle as a babyface sucked because he wasn't anything distinctive or special like Austin was at WM 13.

Yes, it's IMPOSSIBLE for Angle to look great because someone else beat up a cowardly heel.

 

I'm definitely reaching here, but unfortunately I'm reaching down to speak on your level of comprehension where

Spare me your petty little insults.

 

where I have to explain everything to you and you try to rest on crappy one liners not understanding that the objective itself of the match was BAD. The story was BAD. Because the finish was BAD. The resolution of the story was BAD; wrestling is a morality play and the moral of the story was "A man will do anything to have his gold", which was done at WM 17! The objective didn't do anything that hadn't already been done, thus making it 20+ minutes of NOTHING.

And you're wrong, wrong, WRONG. Good lord, you're obsessed with crapping on this match and being right, and it's lame. Give it a rest.

 

Directly after? Of course. Getting Austin "insane heat" (orwhatever hyperbole you use) and giving Angle "amazing support" (again...) doesn't seem like the objective when you plan on having Angle spray him with milk the next night. Thus supporting my "they have no balls" claim. When the supposed effects of the match don't carry over _the next night_ they are meaningless. Nothing was accomplished.

For the tenth time- the screwed up after Summerslam. To use that to attack something that happened *before*, is ridiculous.

 

My thoughts: "What a fucking cop-out". That was one of the few PPVs I (and Curry) ordered and the finish was a let-down. The story was obvious, and even with that in mind, the resolution was completely unsatisfying.

To you, not me. It was a beautiful match with a highly dramatic *great* finish.

[CanadianChick 0]

Really? Yeah, there's NO reason to want to keep Angle strong or keep the title on Austin. No reason at all.

 

Well then, do one or the other. Don't try to do both. Either have Austin pin Kurt on the third Stunner, or have Kurt win. Kurt winning would have made a mighty fine story, with him kicking out of three stunners and all.

 

Excuse me? That WWF screwed up *after* Summerslam is completely irrelevant.

 

How so? They didn't do a definate finish to make both guys look strong just to lead up to comedy? What a waste of a finish. If they didn't even captalise on it, it was pointless.

[Guest Ray]

Well then, do one or the other. Don't try to do both. Either have Austin pin Kurt on the third Stunner, or have Kurt win. Kurt winning would have made a mighty fine story, with him kicking out of three stunners and all.

It's a given that Austin has to win this match. Rock's winning the WCW title later in the show. The plan was to do a Austin/Rock unification match. They didn't follow through with it, but that was generally the plan. The Alliance was already looking weak at it was. Alliance with no title would be even worse. I see no reason to *not* do both, as it worked so well when they did it.

[Just call me Dan 0]

I love it when you guys argure like this. It's quite the interesting read. Thank you.

 

Hardly a classic, but did anyone else like Rock/Brock as much as I did? Very rushed build, but a very fun match to watch unfold.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Rock questioning his own mortality ala Ultimate Warrior was fucking great.

[Guest Black Lightning]

Well then, do one or the other. Don't try to do both. Either have Austin pin Kurt on the third Stunner, or have Kurt win. Kurt winning would have made a mighty fine story, with him kicking out of three stunners and all.

That's a story that's been told hundreds of times in the past, and one that'll be told hundreds of times in the future. In fact, it's the main story of most major feuds that don't involve HHH; heroic face withstands everything heel can think of, and overcomes adversity by winning in the end. Granted, it works. But when you get the opportunity to go in another direction, why not do it?

 

The story that ended up unfolding, as described by Ray, was far more interesting and infinitely smarter from a dramatic perspective. Theoretically, it would have fired up Kurt even more, solidified Austin's own paranoia and self-doubt, and ultimately set the stage for an epic noDQ blow-off. Had they built to it correctly, it could have been a huge money match, and that's what really counts. Like Ray said; the fact that they screwed it up isn't the point, it's that the finish was near perfect for where they should have gone with it.

[BHK 0]

And 99% of that heat was due to the fact that X-Pac was in the ring celebrating with him afterwards.

 

Oh, you know it's true. Pittsburgh is Pac Country, baby.

Well, I can't speak for the rest of my city, but....*closet X-Pac fan*

 

 

Motivated, drug-free, I can regularly put on ***+ matches, X-Pac, that is.

[Guest NCJ]

Rudo let me try to help you out with Ray. You see Ray the problem isn't really the DQ itself. The problem is the DQ hapenned on a ppv after alot of build up. Austin had been having matches and doing things throughout the Spring and Summer that established his heel persona. On back to back nights he aligned himself with Vince Mcmahon and HHH(the two people he truly hated more than anyone else), cheated his way out of losing to Benoit and Jericho on multiple occasions (guys he would have normally meet head on and whipped their ass like another well known Canadian), and turned his back on the WWE all because of his paranoia, cunning, and obsession to keep the belt. Those character traits were all very well developed and established. It would be like people seeing the first two Spiderman movies, going to the third one, and seeing the only thing being done is reestablishing the themes from the first movie. While the ride might be fun in the end you are left unsatisfied. That is the problem with that match. If that would have been the turning point match in Austin's character when you first realize how crazy and insane he really is then I buy your idea about it being great drama and a huge turning point. You could have J.R. going off about how I never thought I would see the day when Austin ran from a fight, but at that point we already know that Austin isn't the same. At Summerslam him doing that wasn't a shock it was just overkill on a point that has been made many times before and with much better effect. You can't use the drama card to back up the decision to end it with a DQ, just like you can't use keeping them both strong while keeping the belt on Austin. If Austin wins with interference, or even with a foreign object, or even just wins period after Angle had kicked out of two stunners, or even Angle went berserk and got disqualified all of those would have been better dramaticaly and both men could have still out of that match looking strong while AUstin kept his belt. If this were a T.V. match or possibly even a minor ppv match I would give the bookers more slack, but not as one of the major main events of your second biggest ppv of the year. It was either it was clearly ego driven more than storyline centralized, or they were just total idiots. Looking at the way the ran the Invasion the second answer is plausible, but not likely. I do agree with Ray though when it comes to a bad ending, run in, foreign object, or small errors in selling like weakening a body part for your finisher dosen't neccesarily equal a bad match, while those things can take away from a match you can still have a very good match where the wrong guy goes over, or with a politically influenced ending.

[Guest Ray]

I love it when you guys argure like this. It's quite the interesting read. Thank you

You're welcome...I guess.

 

Hardly a classic, but did anyone else like Rock/Brock as much as I did? Very rushed build, but a very fun match to watch unfold.

I loved it. How was the build rushed though? I thought it was well done and quite unique, focusing on the athletic aspects of both men and whatnot.

 

That's a story that's been told hundreds of times in the past, and one that'll be told hundreds of times in the future. In fact, it's the main story of most major feuds that don't involve HHH; heroic face withstands everything heel can think of, and overcomes adversity by winning in the end. Granted, it works. But when you get the opportunity to go in another direction, why not do it?

 

The story that ended up unfolding, as described by Ray, was far more interesting and infinitely smarter from a dramatic perspective. Theoretically, it would have fired up Kurt even more, solidified Austin's own paranoia and self-doubt, and ultimately set the stage for an epic noDQ blow-off. Had they built to it correctly, it could have been a huge money match, and that's what really counts. Like Ray said; the fact that they screwed it up isn't the point, it's that the finish was near perfect for where they should have gone with it.

Heh, I like you.

 

You see Ray the problem isn't really the DQ itself. The problem is the DQ hapenned on a ppv after alot of build up.

It has a lot of build. It was also the first match in the feud. Wrestling history is full of examples like this- heel wins first match by DQ/countout/etc, face chases heel, face wins blowoff. So that eliminates Angle winning. If Angle loses, what reason does he have to deserve a rematch? With the DQ, Angle has a clear and valid reason to get another shot. It makes perfect sense.

 

Austin had been having matches and doing things throughout the Spring and Summer that established his heel persona. On back to back nights he aligned himself with Vince Mcmahon and HHH(the two people he truly hated more than anyone else), cheated his way out of losing to Benoit and Jericho on multiple occasions (guys he would have normally meet head on and whipped their ass like another well known Canadian), and turned his back on the WWE all because of his paranoia, cunning, and obsession to keep the belt. Those character traits were all very well developed and established. It would be like people seeing the first two Spiderman movies, going to the third one, and seeing the only thing being done is reestablishing the themes from the first movie. While the ride might be fun in the end you are left unsatisfied. That is the problem with that match.

Except it's not done because they need or want to reestablish anything - it's done because it *fits*. This is the kind of thing this character does. It's part of his nature. Why establish this nature and never do anything with it? Should he *stop* acting paranoid because it's already "established" that he's paranoid? Should his ruthless character *not* act ruthless and go into a match with a cunning gameplan?

 

At Summerslam him doing that wasn't a shock it was just overkill on a point that has been made many times before and with much better effect.

I don't agree at all that it was overkill. People made the same complaints about the Mania 17 finish, saying Vince's presence was "overkill" too.

 

You can't use the drama card to back up the decision to end it with a DQ, just like you can't use keeping them both strong while keeping the belt on Austin.

Why not? I found Austin's strategy and performance to be quite dramatic. If Angle lost clean, would he be as strong as he was after the DQ? If the Alliance had no champion, would they look as strong as they were with a champ? Not that they were booked strong *ever*, but you see the point.

 

If Austin wins with interference, or even with a foreign object, or even just wins period after Angle had kicked out of two stunners, or even Angle went berserk and got disqualified all of those would have been better dramaticaly and both men could have still out of that match looking strong while AUstin kept his belt.

Why would a run-in be better? Why would a foreign object be better? Austin's gameplan is to get himself DQ'ed if necessary. He doesn't need help or a foreign object to do that. Attacking every ref, knowing what would eventually happen, works perfectly. What's the need for alternate endings, when the one they have works well as it is?

 

If this were a T.V. match or possibly even a minor ppv match I would give the bookers more slack, but not as one of the major main events of your second biggest ppv of the year.

It was the start of the feud though. The first match can't be the decisive match, surely?

 

It was either it was clearly ego driven more than storyline centralized, or they were just total idiots. Looking at the way the ran the Invasion the second answer is plausible, but not likely.

I can't help but think storyline plays a major part when Austin spends the entire match playing a character and working a story that *built* to that DQ. It was where the match was leading all along. I don't see where the ego comes in. Austin did let Angle survive *three* Stunners. Undertaker jobbed to *one.*

 

Looking back on the whole of 2001, it's quite clear there's massive idiocy among the booking staff. Hell, one could argue the Austin/Angle feud shouldn't have happened at all, since they were planning a Rock/Austin match, making a proper blowoff to Austin/Angle (Angle winning clean) nearly impossible. It seems to me that people are paying too much attention to the booking surrounding the match, rather than the dramatic, artistic qualities of wrestlers and the match they worked. Endless complaints about who is jobbing and who won't job might lead to people missing a great match.