NOAH 7/10 Tokyo Dome Results...

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

Credit puroresufan.com:

 

NOAH "DEPARTURE 2004", 7/10/04 (PPV/NTV)

Tokyo Dome

58,000 Fans - Super No Vacancy

 

1. Mitsuo Momota beat Haruka Eigen (8:03) with a reverse cradle.

 

2. Tamon Honda, Jun Izumida & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi beat Masao Inoue, Kishin Kawabata & Masashi Aoyagi (10:58) when Izumida used the Mukado Domu on Kawabata.

 

3. Michael Modest & Donovan Morgan beat Kotaro Suzuki & Ricky Marvin (11:55) when Morgan used the Day After Tomorrow on Marvin.

 

4. Scorpio & Richard Slinger beat Akitoshi Saito & Makoto Hashi (16:44) when Slinger used the Chattanooga Choo Choo on Hashi.

 

5. Akira Taue & Takuma Sano beat Daisuke Ikeda & Mohammed Yone (10:45) when Sano used an avalanche-style Northern Light bomb on Yone.

 

6. GHC Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Title: Naomichi Marufuji & KENTA © beat Takashi Sugiura & Kendo Kashin (22:26) when Marufuji used an avalanche-style Shiranui on Sugiura (7th defense).

 

7. GHC Jr. Heavyweight Title: Yoshinobu Kanemaru beat Jushin Thunder Liger © (17:36) with a revolution-style brainbuster to become the 9th champion.

 

8. IWGP Tag Team Title: Yoshihiro Takayama & Minoru Suzuki © beat Takeshi Morishima & Takeshi Rikio (12:55) when Takayama used a high-angle German suplex hold on Morishima (3rd defense).

 

9. GHC Tag Team Title: Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa © beat Keiji Muto & Taiyo Kea (21:46) when Misawa used the Emerald Frosion on Kea (4th defense).

 

10. GHC Heavyweight Title: Kenta Kobashi © beat Jun Akiyama (35:34) with the Burning Hammer (9th defense).

 

I'm not too keen on Kobashi retaining. Unless Misawa's planning to put the belt on an outsider, he doesn't really have many credible challengers left.

[Dangerous A 0]

Actually, if NOAH and AJPW start working together as was shown last night and possibly for AJPW's next big show, Misawa could definitely be looking to put the title on either Muto or Kawada to do big business.

 

 

Here is a question to the few puro marks here. Would you be interested in a renewed feud with Kawada vs Misawa if both men were to put personal differences aside to do business? They have both been away from each other for awhile now, so I wonder if they had another match or series of matches, if it would succeed, from an in ring standpoint as well as a business one?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

It would strongly depend. If Kawada is motivated it should provide a few decent matches. But Kawada seems far too content with just throwing kick after kick in his matches to actually make me totally interested in the idea.

 

Misawa/Mutoh would interest me a bit more just because it's something completely new.

[Guest Samurai Johnny Frankenstein]

But Kawada seems far too content with just throwing kick after kick in his matches to actually make me totally interested in the idea.

I'm not way up on my Puro, but isn't that because Kawada last few challengers for the TC have been Jamal from the 3MW, Don Frye, and other scrubs.

 

You throw him in there with, say Akiyama, Kobashi, and (maybe) Misawa, you'll see a different Kawada.

 

I'd hope

[Sass 0]

Actually, if NOAH and AJPW start working together as was shown last night and possibly for AJPW's next big show, Misawa could definitely be looking to put the title on either Muto or Kawada to do big business.

 

 

Here is a question to the few puro marks here. Would you be interested in a renewed feud with Kawada vs Misawa if both men were to put personal differences aside to do business? They have both been away from each other for awhile now, so I wonder if they had another match or series of matches, if it would succeed, from an in ring standpoint as well as a business one?

 

It's the only match that would probably be a draw in an AJ vs. NOAH feud at this point so "yes" they should do it from a business standpoint.

 

Otherwise, it's the same old match we've seen before except both guys have regressed as workers over the years and I imagine the end result would resmble something like 3/3/03.

 

Also, the results of the 7/10 show make my head hurt. Everything looks terrible from a booking standpoint as no one looked like they gained any standing in the roster ranks or with the fans.

 

This company is booked worse than the WWE.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

But Kawada seems far too content with just throwing kick after kick in his matches to actually make me totally interested in the idea.

I'm not way up on my Puro, but isn't that because Kawada last few challengers for the TC have been Jamal from the 3MW, Don Frye, and other scrubs.

 

You throw him in there with, say Akiyama, Kobashi, and (maybe) Misawa, you'll see a different Kawada.

 

I'd hope

No, Kawada has fallen into this since around 2000/2001. It's not a recent trend at all.

 

I also agree with Sass. Is anyone capable of being a credible champ after Misawa, Akiyama or Kobashi in NOAH right now?

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

Probably Taue from a kayfabe standpoint, but aside from a few exceptions, he's been pretty awful in the ring since NOAH formed.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Probably Taue from a kayfabe standpoint, but aside from a few exceptions, he's been pretty awful in the ring since NOAH formed.

If you think that Taue has been awful, then what does that make Kobashi? He's WAY below Taue by this point, from a workrate standpoint, not in NOAH's pecking order. Strange how Taue was always considered to be the weakest of the Four Lords of Heaven, but he's regressed the least out of them.

[J.B. Buzzkill 0]

Well, I'm a *huge* Kobashi mark, so maybe my opinion is quite biased.

[Guest Perkoff]

No way in hell. Kobashi is one of the ten best workers in the world at this point. His matches against Misawa and Takayama are just two examples.

[Guest Contentious C]

The match against Misawa was dreadful, especially if you've seen ANY of the good AJ main events from 1992-1997. Put any of the Misawa vs. Kawada/Kobashi/Taue matches from that period (even the bad ones like 6/6/97 & 10/25/95) next to it and you'll see how by-rote and perfunctory Misawa/Kobashi '03 looked. And Nagata/Kobashi was positively abysmal; for the style they worked, it's possibly the worst match of its kind since the '02 Mutoh/Kawada farce. The match against Honda was good, but it was just barely the match of the night, and it doesn't hold up well against some of the Jr. tags from last year. Kobashi isn't half the worker he was even in 2002, and it has nothing to do with his physical state.

[Guest Perkoff]

I didn't say that his work is good compared to what he did in the early 1990's. Let's compare him to the rest of the japanese heavyweight wrestlers today. Who would be better i NJPW?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Nagata, Tenzan and Barrnett for starters.

[Guest Perkoff]

Tenzan and Nagata - yes, they are definitly among the very best.

 

But Barnett!? Why? Matches?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

1/4/03 was a fairly good match with Nagata and Barnett had had very little training by then. He drug a watchable match out of Scott Norton and his matches are usually solid enough.

 

I'll put Chono on that list too due to his series of matches with Takayama last summer.

[Guest Contentious C]

I didn't say that his work is good compared to what he did in the early 1990's. Let's compare him to the rest of the japanese heavyweight wrestlers today. Who would be better i NJPW?

If you aren't comparing him to what he did in the 90s, then saying he's "one of the best workers in the world" isn't worth wiping anyone's ass with. That's when being 'one of the best' meant something. Being one of the best now is like being the best base-stealer in AA baseball. Yippee dee fuck.

[Guest Perkoff]

Why are you even watching wrestling nowadays?

[Guest Contentious C]

Just because I watch on occasion, I have to enjoy it? Even though I download the vast majority of new stuff I have, meaning I have no financial obligation to try to like it? Please.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

If you think that Taue has been awful, then what does that make Kobashi? He's WAY below Taue by this point, from a workrate standpoint, not in NOAH's pecking order. Strange how Taue was always considered to be the weakest of the Four Lords of Heaven, but he's regressed the least out of them.

REALLY? Now BT, maybe it's because I haven't seen ALL of Taue's work in NOAH or anything but Kobashi's workrate isn't higher than Taue's? I would agree and say that Taue is probably the one that is least affected by injury. But would you care to elaborate???

[Guest Black Tiger]

I'd be happy to DK. I also would agree with you that a primary reason for Taue's lack of regression is that he didn't take a lot of the head drops. Taue also never took many risks in the first place, I don't recall seeing Taue bust out top rope splashes, moonsaults, and only the occasional tope suicida. Misawa and Kobashi did that night in and night out, as well as take all the head drops.

 

Obviously, one can only make judgements and things of that nature based on what they've seen. So I'm going to leave all the "I heard", "Meltzer/Zach/Coey/etc says" and the rest of that at the door.

 

Within the last year, I've seen the following matches from Kenta Kobashi in NOAH. I'm well aware I'm missing 3/1/03, but considering what I've heard about it, I'm not in a hurry to track it down.

 

Kobashi/Honda vs Akiyama/Saito (6/6/03)

Kobashi vs Nagata (9/12/03)

Kobashi/Hashi/Rikio vs Akiyama/Kikuchi/Morishima (1/10/04)

Kobashi vs Rikio (3/6/04)

Kobashi vs Takayama (4/25/04)

 

Of all those singles matches, the only one that I thought was at the *** level was the Takayama match, Kobashi's bad habits came towords the end of it, but before that, he was doing some nice arm selling, and brining out head drop suplexes, at a rare occasion when they made sense to be used. His selling towards the end was a big step down and I found it pretty silly that he'd no sell to hit the Burning Lariat, when its not even the finish.

 

Kobashi vs Nagata, was much like 4/25, with the arm work, except Kobashi did a horrid job of selling it, and then shit on it, for the Burning Lariat, I said above that it was bad because it wasn't the finish. But even when it was the finish, it seems to be counter productive to shrug it off and then use a single lariat, without even selling it, to win the match.

 

Kobashi vs Rikio, is just flat out boring. But I hold both of them responsible for that one. I won't go into specifics because quite frankly, I don't remember any

 

The 6/6 tag match was really good, but that's due to Honda's underdog story and Akiyama's heel work. Kobashi and Saito were mainly regulated to supporting roles. The 1/10 six man is much the same, the big story is Akiyama vs Hashi, in their little feud, Kobashi is once again regulated to supporting role. His main job is to save Honda, as well as keep Akiyama and Saito down, which he does with his suplexes.

 

Taue, on the other hand, I've seen that I have a good recollection of

 

Taue vs Yuji Nagata (6/6/03)

Taue/Takayama/Kanemaru vs Sugiura/Saito/Honda (1/10/04)

Taue/Sano vs Honda/IZU (3/6/03)

Taue/Sano vs Inoue/Honda (4/25/04)

 

The latter two tag matches were mostly about Sano, so Taue's role was the enforcer, just doing bits of damage here and there, to set up Sano's offense. The 1/10 six man was a fun affair with the juniors being front and center. Taue, is once again, just doing a few big moves and letting Kanemaru have the kill. Taue's role is a factor in this, because he IS playing the role of the over the hill legend. Who's time is past. His place is in the midcard, so his matches aren't going to be very high profile and Misawa's answer seems to be "fill the card with meaningless tag matches".

 

However, we have a direct contrast in the form of Kobashi vs Nagata and Taue vs Nagata. Taue and Nagata's match was not only MOTN, but my pick for MOTY. Taue was leading Yuji by the hand and keeping him reigned in. From the big bombs early on to keep the crowd awake, as well as keep a good pace. Nagata blows his comeback spot and Taue is forced to improvise literally on the spot. Finally, the way Taue was fighting tooth and nail to keep out of Nagata Lock III, really making it seem like a deadly move (one only has to look at the reason why Nagata created a 3rd, because he puts them on out of nowhere and rarely gets the win). Taue's selling is spot on, Nagata didn't do a lot of arm work, so he compensates by just trying avoid it like the plauge, he does the Terry Funk totally selling, but not selling bit for Nagata's head kicks.

 

I'd like to see Taue vs Rikio (the match that earned Rikio his 3/6 title shot) for another direct comparison, as well as the Taue/Ikeda GHC Tag Title challenge from October.

Edited July 13, 2004 by Black Tiger

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Thanks BT, boss explaination there. Now I seem to understand. It seems then that Kobashi's workrate being worse than Taue's is simply because Kobashi is the champion after all and not being billed as "over the hill" the way that Taue is used. Taue/Nagata you consider MOTY? Hell, I have to check that out now as I have passed up on it already. Thanks for clearing everything up too.

[Guest Black Tiger]

DK,

 

Taue's over the hill role isn't the reason I think he's better than Kobashi right now. My apologies if that's how it came off. Taue's over the hill role is the reason that I really didn't go into much detail on most of the Taue matches I've seen from the last year. All Taue was really doing was hitting his signiture stuff and letting Sano, or Kanemaru go for the kill.

 

That's why I went so in depth on Taue vs Nagata, to try to illustrate why Taue was so much better in that match, than Kobashi was in HIS match vs Nagata.

 

I think Taue is over all better because of the lack of his participation in the head drop fests, and his lack of big risk moves. They've kept him in better shape. To be fair though, Taue vs Nagata is considered to be Taue's crown jewl of the year, and I haven't seen Kobashi's (vs Tamon Honda 4/13/03).

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

BT,

 

 

I actually ordered the 06-06-03, 04-13-03 NOAH shows. I'll actually post my thoughts after I watch them and I'll be able to give you my opinion on the Kobashi/Honda match as well. I'll be very interested to see how they come across.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The head drops have nothing to do with Taue regressing less. Kobashi's biggest lingering physical problem has been his knees, which are a result of all the moonsaults he's done. 3/03 proved that he and Misawa are still physically capable to take all the crazy bumps. It's not their physical state that's limiting them from performing, but rather their mental state, as Tom hinted at. They've either forgotten how to make the most of their big moves or just don't care to, and that's been the story for many years now.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I think Taue is over all better because of the lack of his participation in the head drop fests, and his lack of big risk moves.

 

Ricky, I think you and BT are saying the same thing in different ways here as his mention of the lack of big risk moves would be the same thing you are saying. I misunderstood what BT was talking about after I asked him to elaborate on why he thought that Kobashi was worse in ring than Taue.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

The head drops have nothing to do with Taue regressing less. Kobashi's biggest lingering physical problem has been his knees, which are a result of all the moonsaults he's done. 3/03 proved that he and Misawa are still physically capable to take all the crazy bumps. It's not their physical state that's limiting them from performing, but rather their mental state, as Tom hinted at. They've either forgotten how to make the most of their big moves or just don't care to, and that's been the story for many years now.

But couldn't the head drops be the cause of their mental state? Couldn't have being dropped on your head match after match have left Misawa and Kobashi with some brain damage that could effect their ability to call a match?

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

The head drops have nothing to do with Taue regressing less. Kobashi's biggest lingering physical problem has been his knees, which are a result of all the moonsaults he's done. 3/03 proved that he and Misawa are still physically capable to take all the crazy bumps. It's not their physical state that's limiting them from performing, but rather their mental state, as Tom hinted at. They've either forgotten how to make the most of their big moves or just don't care to, and that's been the story for many years now.

But couldn't the head drops be the cause of their mental state? Couldn't have being dropped on your head match after match have left Misawa and Kobashi with some brain damage that could effect their ability to call a match?

Sad thing is......that's what most people credit the reasons for their "brain dead" phase.

[Guest Contentious C]

Ugh...it's highly unlikely that they're brain damaged...the bumps can't help, but it just doesn't stand to reason.

 

Why is it only two of us can figure out that Misawa & Kobashi more likely have different ideas of what makes up a good match than they did 10 years ago, and that their new ideas aren't actually 'good'?? Instead of looking at their work carefully and thinking about how the crowds were responding, back during the days of the Jumbo feud and the early Kawada feud, they just assumed the crowd only cared about nasty bumps. Eventually, that's all they gave them, and then you have what's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I think it's a strong possibility. Someone can't get dropped on their head hundreds of times and not see a decrease in their mental capabilities.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Ugh...it's highly unlikely that they're brain damaged...the bumps can't help, but it just doesn't stand to reason.

 

Why is it only two of us can figure out that Misawa & Kobashi more likely have different ideas of what makes up a good match than they did 10 years ago, and that their new ideas aren't actually 'good'??  Instead of looking at their work carefully and thinking about how the crowds were responding, back during the days of the Jumbo feud and the early Kawada feud, they just assumed the crowd only cared about nasty bumps.  Eventually, that's all they gave them, and then you have what's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Meh, Tom saying something like that is just speculation........just like everyone else has been doing. Unless we hear their comments on them.....then I guess we'll never know.

 

p.s. - We are all taking this WAY off topic.