Dave Meltzer's Vengeance Review

[Enigma 0]

WWE VENGEANCE POLL RESULTS

Thumbs up ------------------------- 153 votes (60.7%)

Thumbs down ---------------------- 12 votes (4.8%)

In the middle ----------------------- 87 votes (34.5%)

 

Best Match Poll

Randy Orton vs. Edge ------------------- 164 votes

Chris Benoit vs. HHH --------------------- 73 votes

 

Worst Match Poll

Chris Jericho vs. Batista ----------------- 79 votes

Molly Holly vs. Victoria ------------------- 53 votes

Tajiri & Rhyno vs. Cade & Coachman - 52 votes

Matt Hardy vs. Kane --------------------- 13 votes

 

The final show of the WWE experiment of three PPV events in six weeks, the 7/11 Vengeance show from the Hartford Civic Center, was a two match show built around Chris Benoit vs. HHH for the World title, with Eugene in the middle, and Randy Orton vs. Edge for the IC title.

 

Both matches were more than 25:00, and were strong bouts. Early indications are a lower than usual buy rate, most fans either happy or so-so with the event, and another disappointing live gate.

 

The show drew about 7,000 fans, which was 6,000 paying $370,000, with much of the arena tarped off, and this was for a PPV event in the company's Northeastern home base, featuring its strong crew.

 

The storyline made it evident that the world title would be decided upon by Eugene, who was being manipulated by HHH, as well as talked with by Benoit. The clear thing from the show is with Evolution dominating everything, combined with a babyface crew that either lacks cool charisma (Benoit and Edge) or has been positioned as not being tippy- top guys (Jericho and far more Matt Hardy), that Evolution is becoming the big babyfaces in the brand. It was evident when probably the biggest face reactions on the show were to Ric Flair and Orton, although Flair was put in a babyface position.

 

It was a mixed night, largely with Evolution's losers winning and winners losing. HHH lost to Benoit when Eugene accidentally hit him with a chair Eugene was struggling with Benoit over in 29:04. Apparently HHH is now getting off on the idea of long matches, because the next night on television, it was pushed how he dominated Benoit for 28:00 before Eugene's screwing up cost him the match. It was a good main event, but between an over booked finish and too much Eugene, it was, if anything, a slight disappointment. Because Eugene got over so big the first time Rock did the angle with him, they've fooled themselves into thinking he's super over. But his response in recent weeks has been lukewarm, and he and HHH have become the focal point for the entire brand on television, even though he's a prelim act on the road. With HHH portrayed as the guy running the show, with the plan, who outsmarts the babyface at every turn, even though it didn’t work this time, he's about to become the most popular star on the brand.

 

His rival is Orton, because Orton always cheats to win. Orton and Edge had an interesting mix, as the crowd was split, but vociferous for their favorites. Orton seemed to have the support of the guys, as the Edge cheers were distinctly feminine. The two worked an excellent match, with the crowd gradually shifting to Edge, and great near falls in the closing minutes, before Edge ended Orton's IC title reign that dated back to December 14, 2003, beating Rob Van Dam. The seven-month reign has been talked about as the longest run in seven years, although it really would be not quite that long. The last long reign was Rock, the guy they are grooming Orton to be the new version of, who was given the belt on December 8, 1997, when in reality, Steve Austin refused to do the job in the ring for him. Rock held it until August 30, 1998, when he lost the ladder match in Madison Square Garden to HHH, which was the night where it became obvious Rock was going to be a gigantic deal.

 

In building Orton, who, like Rock on the night he lost the title, was heavily cheered, it's been both because Evolution are the coolest guys, but also because Orton has always foiled the babyface hope. The idea is to get him credibility with win after win since they are grooming him for a major program with HHH, probably at Wrestlemania. And as talked about many times, the fans don’t buy into Edge's current character at the level he's being pushed. Again, he's also being groomed for HHH, which is why characters on Raw, like Chris Benoit, get the more focused build-up instead of the "give up in a few weeks when it doesn’t click immediately" that has become a company trademark.

 

The rest of the show was just filler, although Batista didn't help himself any, looking really green in his win over Chris Jericho. He looked like a guy who had no business at this level, but seemed to redeem himself the next night on Raw against Edge.

 

A. Tyson Tomko (Travis Tomko) pinned Val Venis (Sean Morley) in 2:52 after a high kick. Nidia came out with Venis to counteract Trish Stratus. Tomko looked bad. So bad that Jim Ross actually pointed out after he'd blown some spots that he was a powerhouse, but that his wrestling was raw. After he delivered the high kick, he stopped, and seemed to be about to do another move when it hit him this was the finish. That was weird. After the match, he was stalking Nidia, but Maven came out and made the save.

 

1. Tajiri (Yoshihiro Tajiri) & Rhyno (Terry Gerin) beat Jonathan Coachman & Garrison Cade (Lance Cade) in 7:30 when Tajiri pinned Coachman after a high kick. Everyone looked fine in this match except Coachman, but he had more personality out there than the other three combined. Tajiri blew the mist at Cade. Rhyno went to gore Coachman, but he moved, allowing Cade to take it. Tajiri looked good and made the match. * 1/2

 

The HHH-Eugene show long storyline saw Eugene disappear. When HHH found him, he was talking to Benoit. Benoit was telling him HHH was using him.

 

2. Batista (David Bautista) pinned Chris Jericho (Chris Irvine) in 12:19 after a power bomb, even though Jericho got a foot on the ropes. Batista looked the worst he's looked in a long time. He was even worse than Tomko. Much of it was Batista dominating with power working off a full nelson. Jericho made a brief comeback late in the match. *

 

3. La Resistance retained the tag titles, beating Ric Flair (Richard Fleihr) & Eugene (Nick Dinsmore) via DQ in 12:30. Not much for wrestling, but it had its moments of campy entertainment. Flair & Eugene worked as babyfaces. Even though they had teased that they wouldn't get along, there were no signs of it during the match other than Flair being pissed because Eugene did all of his spots, including the face first flop. Flair came in, and was probably the most popular wrestler on the show, as he got a far bigger reaction than Eugene. He did a few trademark spots, and then sold a lot. They did the Au Revoir on Flair, but Eugene came in and went berserk, and threw down ref Mike Chioda for the DQ. He then gave a stunner to Grenier and a rock bottom to Conway, and then did the people's elbow to Conway. *3/4

 

The crowd heavily booed the promotional package of the Hardy-Kane-Lita soap opera.

 

4. Matt Hardy pinned Kane (Glen Jacobs) in 10:34. Hardy had to win, because nobody believed in him a lick. They worked how they should have, but considering how much time has been spent on this angle, it had little heat. Hardy hit Kane with the ring bell, and then hit a twist of fate, but Kane kicked out and sat up. Kane did a sloppy choke slam and then went to get the ring steps. Lita ran in to protect Hardy. Kane came into the ring with the steps but Hardy clocked the steps with a chair and Kane fell backwards and was pinned. **1/4

 

5. Edge (Adam Copeland) pinned Randy Orton to win the IC title in 26:36. A mixed reaction early, with lots of "Lets Go Orton" chants, which saw "Lets Go Edge" chants follow up from his fans. I thought this was an excellent match, with Orton showing the most poise and star charisma I’ve ever seen from him. Orton worked over Edge's neck for a long time. He did a long cranking chin lock. To some, it was a never ending rest hold, but to others it was working the neck using a unique angle. The timing in the spots was perfect. They got up and did one near fall after another, playing off all of Orton's previous cheating wins, and the crowd heat at the finish was excellent. At one point they traded hard elbow and forearm shots like they were in NOAH. Orton rolled through on a cross body for a near fall. Orton undid the turnbuckle padding. Edge used an implant DDT for a near fall. Orton dropped Edge on the exposed metal and used the ropes for a near fall. Place was popping huge for the near falls. Orton ended up being whipped into the exposed metal and was hit with a spear for the pin and title win. ****1/4

 

6. Victoria (Lisa-Marie Varon) pinned Molly Holly (Nora Greenwald) in 6:20 in a match where the winner would be next in line for a title shot at the injured Trish Stratus, possibly at SummerSlam. They had no chance whatsoever because of the previous match and just being in that spot on the card. They probably couldn't have done much better, as Holly always works well and Victoria looked great. She did a moonsault block and a plancha. She took a weird bump on the ring steps which made her selling her shoulder so believable. Holly worked on the shoulder. Because of this, Victoria couldn’t do her widow's peak, but still won with a super kick. **1/2

 

7. Chris Benoit pinned HHH (Paul Levesque) in 29:04 to keep the World title. Most of the match saw HHH work over Benoit's upper chest. They acted as if Benoit suffered a sternum injury by running fast chest first into the turnbuckles. HHH delivered what started as a vertical suplex, but kept dropping Benoit forward on his chest. As HHH was using an abdominal stretch, with the usual Wilbur Snyder reference, Jim Ross mentioned he didn't know if Benoit had ever submitted (wasn't that Kurt Angle match at Rumble just about the best company match of 2003?). Benoit blocked a pedigree into a sharpshooter, and held it a long time before HHH made the ropes. Benoit hit the three German suplex combinations and even did a tope. They had a ref bump here. HHH did a DDT. HHH told Eugene to come out. He did, but Benoit got the crossface and there was no ref. Benoit told Eugene to get the ref, but Eugene refused to do so. HHH was tapping of course. The ref stayed down forever, to the point to where it was stupid. Benoit decked Eugene as he tried to get into the ring. Crowd booed that. HHH used a low blow and pedigree, and Eugene then got the ref. Benoit kicked out. HHH told Eugene to get a chair. Eugene gave HHH a chair, but then stopped him from using it. HHH shoved Eugene off the apron to the floor. Eugene then got the chair and teased he was going to hit Benoit. He then stopped and teased he was going to hit HHH. He stopped again. Benoit and Eugene then struggled over the chair, until Benoit let go and Eugene pulled the chair away and accidentally hit HHH with it. Eugene started crying about screwing up and Benoit scored the pin with a schoolboy. ***3/4

[strummer 0]

Meltzer is right, Evolution are turning into the biggest babyfaces on Raw. They always make the faces look stupid and end every show gaining the advantage. It's NWO circa 96-97 all over again. Orton is starting to get cheered, and HHH is getting big pops now.

[Guest TigerDriver91]

The women's match got **1/2? And only * for Jericho's match?

 

Good thing I didn't bother watching Vengeance, as I can always download the stuff I want to see.

[strummer 0]

BTW, SD, are you going to have this week's Observer WWE news and notes? I always appreciate it!

[Tawren 0]

"At one point they traded hard elbow and forearm shots like they were in NOAH."

 

OMFG ****1/4! STIFF!

 

For fuck's sake, the match sucked. As Nik Johnson said in his review (main page), headlock to headlock to headlock to headlock and resting galore, with the headlock/neck stuff not even playing into the finish.

[DangerousDamon 0]

Please excuse my ignorance, but why does Meltzer put the wrestler's real names next to their wrestling name?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Cause he's a gigantic tool?

[Guest TigerDriver91]

Please excuse my ignorance, but why does Meltzer put the wrestler's real names next to their wrestling name?

And Jericho's real last name is Irvine not Irwin.

[Guest TheJewof2001]

The show drew about 7,000 fans, which was 6,000 paying $370,000, with much of the arena tarped off, and this was for a PPV event in the company's Northeastern home base, featuring its strong crew.

I live in NYC and my good friend has a house near Hartford. I could have gone to the show, but I had no interest in intending the event. And I am a hardcore wrestling fan.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Please excuse my ignorance, but why does Meltzer put the wrestler's real names next to their wrestling name?

I've never actually seen him do that with PPV results before. First time for everything I guess or SD added it.

[Enigma 0]

Please excuse my ignorance, but why does Meltzer put the wrestler's real names next to their wrestling name?

I've never actually seen him do that with PPV results before. First time for everything I guess or SD added it.

He used to do it then quit. I just thought I'd add it since he used to do it and I personally liked it. But yeah, I goofed on Irwin--Irvine.

[Guest TigerDriver91]

Any news in the WO newsletter this week about Gail Kim's injury?

[Enigma 0]

Any news in the WO newsletter this week about Gail Kim's injury?

Busted implant.

[Guest Staravenger]

I agree on ALMOST All the ratings. Batista/Jericho wasn't that bad and I gave it **. Orton/Edge was in the ***-***1/2 range, but NOWHERE NEAR ****+. Shouldn't even be considered.

[Papacita 0]

with the headlock/neck stuff not even playing into the finish (of Orton/Edge).

Ok, admittedly, I'm not the best judge of psychology, but is that really a bad thing? I mean, you've got Edge, who recently returned from a neck injury, and Orton whose finisher works the head/neck area, so it'd make sense for him to target Edge's neck during the match. If it didn't play into the finish, couldn't you just say Orton's strategy didn't pay off in the end? I've seen this complaint before (about body work not playing into the finish), but in this case especially, I don't see how it makes the psychology any less sound.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But it's pointless. Why do something throughout the match if it doesn't effect the finish? There has to be a pay-off, otherwise you just waste time. Granted, I didn't see the match so I can't effectively say. However, unless the finish involved Edge working out of the headlock (finally finding a way to get out of it - Edge learns throughout the match how to counter it... the payoff to all the work done) and then smacking Orton into the turnbuckle (using Ortons transparant tactics against him... which, in a follow-up match, should have Orton try to be more sneaky), then it was just there "to be there". "Hey look, we're OLD SCHOOL~! But we're so YOUNG! We're THROWIN BACK!! HEAD-LOCK."

 

The bestcase scenario (off the top of my head) would have been "Edge rallies back and quickens the pace for some hot near falls on Orton. A flustered Randy goes back to the move he was most successful with in the match - the headlock (a move Edge was unable to get out of the whole time). Edge runs to the exposed turnbuckle with Orton still holding onto the headlock and turns into the corner- Orton hits the turnbuckle, breaks the hold, and wobbles back to the middle of the ring - Edge finishes him with a spear." That brings everything together for the payoff, thus giving the crowd the reason to sit through all the headlocks in the beginning. This gratification then makes the crowd more eager to sit through other "builds" because they know -somehow- it'll come together in the end.

[Guest bigm350]

****1/4 stars for Edge-Orton? More like *** at the most.

[Guest Ray]

For fuck's sake, the match sucked.

No it didn't. Edge/Orton was great.

 

As Nik Johnson said in his review (main page), headlock to headlock to headlock to headlock and resting galore,

I loved the headlocks. It showed Orton being a giant dick with his great facials and body language. Loved it.

 

edit: That review sucked, btw. Sorry but it did. He completely misses key elements of the finishing stretch and spends far too much time complaining about headlocks.

 

with the headlock/neck stuff not even playing into the finish.

As if anytime a body part is worked it must ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS LEAD TO A FINISH INVOLVING THAT PARTICULAR BODY PART.

 

Orton's big move is the RKO. It makes sense for him to want to damage Edge's head. That he doesn't win with the move is irrelevant.

Edited July 17, 2004 by Ray

[jester 0]

The crowd heavily booed the promotional package of the Hardy-Kane-Lita soap opera.

But it's one of Raw's most popular angles! Matt Hardy said so!

[Tawren 0]

with the headlock/neck stuff not even playing into the finish.

As if anytime a body part is worked it must ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS LEAD TO A FINISH INVOLVING THAT PARTICULAR BODY PART.

 

Orton's big move is the RKO. It makes sense for him to want to damage Edge's head. That he doesn't win with the move is irrelevant.

No, I'm not saying that anytime a body part is worked it needs to focus into the finish, but it needs to work for the match. In a 27 minute match when nearly 20 are focused around the headlock and that work and then they just dump it all to go into an extended finish, it renders the match pointless. It needs to build. When by the end they have just forgotten it to do several random nearfalls, it doesn't work.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

I want the stuff Meltzer was smoking when he gave Edge vs Orton ****1/4. That's as bad as Keller giving the HIAC match ****1/4. The match was boring and Orton needs to learn how to control a match with out putting ten minute restholds(I do like the expressions but I rather him switch up with variations like NJ junior's in the 90's) The only thing that saved that match from being horrible was the finishing sequence with great near falls the crowd bought into. I rather watch their Raw match again then this one. The Raw match didn't drag as bad and was more consistently paced.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Meltzer always overrates matches. He gave the first Guerrero/JBL match ***3/4 and the GAB one like ***1/4. He always overrates anything the WWF does.

[Guest Staravenger]

Meltzer always overrates matches. He gave the first Guerrero/JBL match ***3/4 and the GAB one like ***1/4. He always overrates anything the WWF does.

I thought it was Keller who over-rated, and Meltzer under-rated. `

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Meltzer basically looks at matches like this:

 

"Was every moved performed well, did it flow/build nicely, did they work heat spots, did the crowd react, did the wrestlers play their roles correctly, did the right guy go over"

 

Which is certainly part of what makes a match, but not all. Things like internal logic, story, and development are largely ignored because -quite simply- the WWE doesn't do those things well. It would be like looking at an Blow-up Big Budget Action Movie and looking for those same things. In other words, he dramatically lowers his standards so he can cover it "appropriately". Unfortunately, that means his opinion on things also suffers because he compromises where -perhaps- others don't.

[Guest Ray]

No, I'm not saying that anytime a body part is worked it needs to focus into the finish, but it needs to work for the match.

It does work for the match. He's trying to control Edge (who early in the match ran the ropes a lot, which is dangerous for Orton when Edge's spear has beaten him before) and wear him down, and make it easier for Orton to use the RKO.

 

In a 27 minute match when nearly 20 are focused around the headlock and that work and then they just dump it all to go into an extended finish, it renders the match pointless. It needs to build. When by the end they have just forgotten it to do several random nearfalls, it doesn't work.

You're grossly exaggerating the headlocks. There's much more to the match than headlocks. There's a great striking sequence. There's a great missile dropick from Edge. There's a great element in Orton having an answer to Edge's spear. Orton tosses him over the ropes when Edge tries to run them one too many times. Orton kicks Edge in the chest on one spear attempt. Orton leapfrogs another. It's clear that it'll take something special for Edge to be able to deliver the move. Edge is a resilient wrestler. Edge is able to fight out of Orton's headlocks. Orton, being a sneaky heel, removes the turnbuckle pad, which comes back to haunt him later, which is a wonderful moral lesson. Random near falls? Hardly. Orton gets a great one when he gets out of the turnbuckle punch spot and dumps Edge on the ropes. Another near fall comes off Edge's DDT, which is his former finishing move, which he uses since Orton countered his spear earlier. That's not "random." That's pulling out an old move that worked in the past because your current move has been countered. Then Orton gets whipped into the turnbuckle he removed and gives a great "oh shit, what have I done?" facial. Edge sees an opening and spears him. Great finishing sequence. And you have the crowd going nuts for it.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Please excuse my ignorance, but why does Meltzer put the wrestler's real names next to their wrestling name?

Oh, you didn't know? Meltzer is really -iB-.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

"At one point they traded hard elbow and forearm shots like they were in NOAH."

 

OMFG ****1/4! STIFF!

 

For fuck's sake, the match sucked. As Nik Johnson said in his review (main page), headlock to headlock to headlock to headlock and resting galore, with the headlock/neck stuff not even playing into the finish.

Under that line of thinking all of those Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle "classics" were absolute shit.

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

You know, someone seriously needs to show Randy Orton some Diamond Dallas Page matches, the Diamond Cutter (RKO) is like the Crossface, at anytime, anywhere, it can be hit from any position and in theory end the match at anytime, and that is why he needs a new finisher.

 

Like I said in my beautiful thread (which died because a very bad question was asked.), if he decides to use restholds and psychology he needs a submission move as a finisher.

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

You know I always thought with HHH's real name being Paul Levesque or as I read once Jean-Paul Levesque, he should do an amnesia angle where he get bonked on the head by falling objects, then becomes the all new member of La Resistance and eventually turns them into pirates who steals Benoit's Jacket, although Benoit would probably end up losing the match, I think it would be worth it.

[Guest tangerine]

Personally I felt the Randy Orton Vs Edge match was lucky to get the generous **** reviews it got because I simply don't believe it was really at all good or at least anything resembling a **** match.

 

It's perhaps a sad commentary of today's fan who think a mundune decent match like this is close to approaching ****.