The "Fire Terry Francona" Thread

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

OK how bout the fact he'd gotten two out?

 

There was one out.

 

How bout the fact he'd gotten two strikes on every hitter he faced? And he was ahead on a couple of those?

 

Cancelled out by the fact that both Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams had garnered safe hits, and that Martinez had allowed three baserunners the previous inning.

 

Gee so I guess we're in agreement that Josh Beckett, with no experience in the playoffs othan the Marlins other 2003 playoff games, OWNS Pedro since he hurled a complete game win just three days after pitching eight innings?

 

Where does that come from? I don't believe in any kind of playoff aura, and I'm just pointing out that Embree, Timlin, and Williamson have postseason success, and there's no reason to think they would choke under pressure.

 

Little took a gamble that Pedro would actually, you know, STEP UP and become that "next level" pitcher and get that last out. It didn't happen, but guess what, just cause Timlin or Embree have some "magical pixie" naked supermodel attractive stats (keep in mind most of these came against a team that has ALCS in their name, yet they can't spell it--Athletics) doesn't mean they'll slam the door either. Arthur Rhodes had a sub-2.5 ERA in his first two years as a Mariner, helluva lotta good THAT did in his three outings.

 

Did you even look at their stats? Timlin's postseason numbers have come against the Twins, Athletics, Braves, White Sox, Phillies, Orioles, Mets, Diamondbacks, and Yankees. Only 1/5 of Timlin's postseason stats are from facing the Athletics. Embree has faced the Mariners, Braves, Orioles, Marlins, Mets, Athletics, and Yankees. His numbers are 1/7th Athletics games.

 

As for Arthur Rhodes, one single pitcher is not indicative of an entire position of pitchers. That's like saying because of Don Larsen, all journeymen should pitch Perfect games in the World Series.

 

The fact that Pedro doesn't get more heat for the sorry current state of the Red Sox (who lead the M's in the season series thanks solely to Joel Piniero) is an indictment of "Red Sox fanboys". Want 20 mil Pedro? Fine tell me which important games you've won in the last five years. Oops I turned it from a 'Fire Terry' thread to a 'Pedro Martinez: is he as good as he thinks?' thread. I'll try to stop doing that

 

Why the hell should Pedro get heat for the Red Sox? That's just utterly stupid. He isn't a bad pitcher.

[Guest GreatOne]

Where does that come from? I don't believe in any kind of playoff aura, and I'm just pointing out that Embree, Timlin, and Williamson have postseason success, and there's no reason to think they would choke under pressure.

 

Doesn't mean they won't either.

 

As for Arthur Rhodes, one single pitcher is not indicative of an entire position of pitchers. That's like saying because of Don Larsen, all journeymen should pitch Perfect games in the World Series.

 

Not really related to this topic, but I believe you chided the M's for not re-signing him (either you or Rant) in your preseason column. Irony.

 

Did you even look at their stats?

 

If I believed that stats were this "holy grail, be all end all" that you do I would take it more into account. If Timlin was this great amazing shut down reliever no one up here in Washington would have bitched up a storm when the M's traded away Jose Cruz for him.

 

Why the hell should Pedro get heat for the Red Sox? That's just utterly stupid. He isn't a bad pitcher.

 

Here we go again, the pitcher can whine about how the organization doesn't respect him and how he wants $80 mil over four years (this the guy who gave up eight runs in his last start) and yet it ISN'T his fault.........And *I* got taken to task in the WWE folder for being "easy to please" while suggesting that RAW wasn't entirely piss-poor.........................

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Doesn't mean they won't either.

 

Perhaps not. No one can say for certain. But what is fact is that Embree and Timlin DID collect five outs for the Sox after Pedro left the game, without surrendering a run.

 

Not really related to this topic, but I believe you chided the M's for not re-signing him (either you or Rant) in your preseason column. Irony.

 

My preseason column is linked in my signature. My paragraph on the Mariners was one of the longest in the column, and I don't even mention the Mariners losing Arthur Rhodes. One post in December shows I was surprised the Mariners didn't offer Arthur Rhodes arbitration. And how exactly would it have been ironic?

 

If I believed that stats were this "holy grail, be all end all" that you do I would take it more into account. If Timlin was this great amazing shut down reliever no one up here in Washington would have bitched up a storm when the M's traded away Jose Cruz for him.

 

So Timlin's status as a pitcher six years ago should determine his usage pattern?

 

Here we go again, the pitcher can whine about how the organization doesn't respect him and how he wants $80 mil over four years (this the guy who gave up eight runs in his last start) and yet it ISN'T his fault.........And *I* got taken to task in the WWE folder for being "easy to please" while suggesting that RAW wasn't entirely piss-poor.........................

 

First off, what you argue in the WWE folder has nothing to do with this. I don't converse with you in that forum. You'll have to explain to me how Pedro's contract demands effect the on-field product.

 

It boils down to this. Grady Little left Pedro Martinez in the game, and he failed. Alan Embree and Mike Timlin, in the same game, did not surrender any runs. That would indicate to me that taking out Pedro in favor of Embree/Timlin would have been the right decision. You have not given any convincing arguments, or even persuasive arguments, to suggest that Embree and Timlin were less likely than Pedro Martinez to lose a three run lead.

[Guest GreatOne]

But what is fact is that Embree and Timlin DID collect five outs for the Sox after Pedro left the game, without surrendering a run.

 

After the damage was done, woohoo! Then what if Williamson blows it? And the lynch mob's out for Little all over again?

 

So Timlin's status as a pitcher six years ago should determine his usage pattern?

 

And yet you're using all his stats from six years AND BEYOND.

 

You'll have to explain to me how Pedro's contract demands effect the on-field product.

 

This is a JOKE right? Guy starts bitching about his contract and free agency and then CONVENIENTLY becomes more touchable than he was before he started doing so. I dunno did Randy Johnson pouting and whining like a freakin three-year old in the first half of '98 have anything to do with him getting lit up almost every other start?

 

It boils down to this.  Grady Little left Pedro Martinez in the game, and he failed.  Alan Embree and Mike Timlin, in the same game, did not surrender any runs.  That would indicate to me that taking out Pedro in favor of Embree/Timlin would have been the right decision.

 

First of all does it occur to anyone that MAYBE Pedro would be more effective in the later innings if he wasn't so busy beating his chest and throwing at guys' heads just to show everyone that 'I'M PEDRO MARTINEZ GOD OF THUNDER YOU DON'T FUCK WITH ME!!!!'? Second Embree and Timlin shut the Yankees down AFTER the damage was done. Then they left and, Aaron Boone. So would that seem to indicate a ninth-inning Yankee rally?

 

You have not given any convincing arguments, or even persuasive arguments, to suggest that Embree and Timlin were less likely than Pedro Martinez to lose a three run lead.

 

Well I do have Timlin himself saying that Grady made the right call, oh I guess he was just being loyal right? I also have Bruce Jacobs and JT the Brick from FSR backing me up but they probably don't know anything. Hell JT's a Yankee fan so of course he wanted Pedro in right?

[Guest Anglesault]

Want 20 mil Pedro? Fine tell me which important games you've won in the last five years.

Oh I'd pay Pedro 20 million if it was up to me. Because if I didn't...he would kill me.

I never quite understood that opinion on Pedro. Sure, he can kill you with a baseball in his hand, but just Pedro by himself, no weapons, fighting you, does that intimidate you?

 

Sheffield scares the hell out of me. Ditto Ortiz. Pedro looks (key word, looks) like the type of guy that someone slightly bigger (Taller or heavier) can outlast.

[treble 0]

So Timlin's status as a pitcher six years ago should determine his usage pattern?

 

And yet you're using all his stats from six years AND BEYOND.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that Timlin was pretty much lights out up to that point in the playoffs. Really, your un-natural hatred of Mike Timlin should preclude you from this argument.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

After the damage was done, woohoo! Then what if Williamson blows it? And the lynch mob's out for Little all over again?

 

Doubtful. The lynch mob would have been over Theo Epstein for not finding a better closer.

 

And yet you're using all his stats from six years AND BEYOND.

 

Treble answered this one. I'm taking his entire career into account. But if you want to play that game, Mike Timlin allowed 0 runs in 9 2/3 postseason innings last year. Embree allowed 0 in 6 2/3 innings. You're arguing that Grady Little should not have used them because they couldn't protect a three run lead?

 

This is a JOKE right? Guy starts bitching about his contract and free agency and then CONVENIENTLY becomes more touchable than he was before he started doing so. I dunno did Randy Johnson pouting and whining like a freakin three-year old in the first half of '98 have anything to do with him getting lit up almost every other start?

 

That's pretty spurious. Are you saying Pedro is pitching bad on purpose because he's upset about his contract? When he knows a good performance will earn him a better contract?

 

First of all does it occur to anyone that MAYBE Pedro would be more effective in the later innings if he wasn't so busy beating his chest and throwing at guys' heads just to show everyone that 'I'M PEDRO MARTINEZ GOD OF THUNDER YOU DON'T FUCK WITH ME!!!!'? Second Embree and Timlin shut the Yankees down AFTER the damage was done. Then they left and, Aaron Boone. So would that seem to indicate a ninth-inning Yankee rally?

 

The hell? I'm not responding to the Pedro bit because there is not a hint of rationality there. And where does the ninth-inning rally bit come from?

 

Well I do have Timlin himself saying that Grady made the right call, oh I guess he was just being loyal right? I also have Bruce Jacobs and JT the Brick from FSR backing me up but they probably don't know anything. Hell JT's a Yankee fan so of course he wanted Pedro in right?

 

Wow, you found two talk radio personalities to agree! How can I argue with a brick? Oh wait, I am. I looked these guys up. Here's a quote from JT......

 

That being said this was Pedro Martinez’s game to win and he found a way to blow it. Don’t blame Grady Little for keeping Martinez in the game because Pedro wanted to remain on the mound heading into the bottom of the 8th inning.

 

Let's make Pedro the manager than. Its Grady's job to overrule his pitcher and make the change. When people talk about great managers, many times its the ability to see through your pitcher's BS and make the call.

 

Look, I can find sportswriters who will agree with me on just about anything. That doesn't make them right.

[Bored 0]

So Timlin's status as a pitcher six years ago should determine his usage pattern?

 

And yet you're using all his stats from six years AND BEYOND.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that Timlin was pretty much lights out up to that point in the playoffs. Really, your un-natural hatred of Mike Timlin should preclude you from this argument.

I heard Timlin likes to beat up elderly women.

Well I do have Timlin himself saying that Grady made the right call, oh I guess he was just being loyal right? I also have Bruce Jacobs and JT the Brick from FSR backing me up but they probably don't know anything. Hell JT's a Yankee fan so of course he wanted Pedro in right?

A sports talk radio host agrees with you? Well then there is just no more reason to argue with you.

 

Oh and I'd argue JT the Brick has never known what he was talking about.

[the max 0]

Let's make Pedro the manager than. Its Grady's job to overrule his pitcher and make the change.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

Grady gets paid to do just that. Torre did it in the same game, pulling out his starter when he struggled, no matter how early it was. That's why Torre wins and Grady gets fired.

[Guest GreatOne]

OK whatever I'm done arguing this shit, and *I* was the childish one, o................k.

 

Al, not a good idea posting that article which plays into my hand, he had his chance TO become a big-game pitcher in that game and he didn't, which is neither Grady Little nor Terry Francona's fault BUT Pedro Martinez. JOSH BECKETT proved himself more a big-game pitcher than Pedro for christ sakes! Tell me an important game this guy's won in the last five years.

 

Maybe this is getting off topic a little but hell, isn't all the 'coddle Pedro' BS doing the same?

[Crimson G 0]

Not really related to this topic, but I believe you chided the M's for not re-signing him (either you or Rant) in your preseason column. Irony.

 

My preseason column is linked in my signature. My paragraph on the Mariners was one of the longest in the column, and I don't even mention the Mariners losing Arthur Rhodes. One post in December shows I was surprised the Mariners didn't offer Arthur Rhodes arbitration. And how exactly would it have been ironic?

After reading your column, you pretty much nailed on the head the Mariners problems this year (except Raul Ibanez who, while healthy, was one of the best players on the team this year). What no one could tell was the Mariners were gonna go through an extremely injury prone year. Then, they will release Jon Olerud (potential future Hall O' Famer) and Rich Aurilia (the second coming of Jeff Cirillo). Joel Pineiro (the M's best pitcher EVER in terms of ERA) just went down with a torn ligament in his pitching arm and will be out for a year and a half! Well, goodbye hopes for next year. Good thing I'm moving out to California where, while the stadium atmospheres suck, there will be some winning teams.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, we got rid of McCracken pretty fast, too. Or is he injured?

[Guest FrigidSoul]

Tell me an important game this guy's won in the last five years.

1999 ALCS Game 5, with a bum shoulder he came into the game from the bullpen and no-hit Cleveland over the last 6.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

OK whatever I'm done arguing this shit, and *I* was the childish one, o................k.

 

Al, not a good idea posting that article which plays into my hand, he had his chance TO become a big-game pitcher in that game and he didn't, which is neither Grady Little nor Terry Francona's fault BUT Pedro Martinez. JOSH BECKETT proved himself more a big-game pitcher than Pedro for christ sakes! Tell me an important game this guy's won in the last five years.

 

Maybe this is getting off topic a little but hell, isn't all the 'coddle Pedro' BS doing the same?

You're really letting your hatred of Pedro Martinez cloud your argument. The issue isn't whether Pedro is a big-game pitcher. The issue is whether Grady Little made a mistake by leaving him in the game. He clearly did.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Not really related to this topic, but I believe you chided the M's for not re-signing him (either you or Rant) in your preseason column. Irony.

 

My preseason column is linked in my signature. My paragraph on the Mariners was one of the longest in the column, and I don't even mention the Mariners losing Arthur Rhodes. One post in December shows I was surprised the Mariners didn't offer Arthur Rhodes arbitration. And how exactly would it have been ironic?

After reading your column, you pretty much nailed on the head the Mariners problems this year (except Raul Ibanez who, while healthy, was one of the best players on the team this year). What no one could tell was the Mariners were gonna go through an extremely injury prone year. Then, they will release Jon Olerud (potential future Hall O' Famer) and Rich Aurilia (the second coming of Jeff Cirillo). Joel Pineiro (the M's best pitcher EVER in terms of ERA) just went down with a torn ligament in his pitching arm and will be out for a year and a half! Well, goodbye hopes for next year. Good thing I'm moving out to California where, while the stadium atmospheres suck, there will be some winning teams.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, we got rid of McCracken pretty fast, too. Or is he injured?

McCracken's back with the Diamondbacks now, who are apparently gluttons for punishment.

 

And just to update Pineiro, the Mariners backed off the announcement that he would need the ligament transplant, so it shouldn't be 12-18 months. Still, he'll be out at least this year I presume.

[Crimson G 0]

McCracken's back with the Diamondbacks now, who are apparently gluttons for punishment.

 

And just to update Pineiro, the Mariners backed off the announcement that he would need the ligament transplant, so it shouldn't be 12-18 months. Still, he'll be out at least this year I presume.

Thank God. Pineiro is a great starter at times, but other times he just sucks donkey balls.

[Guest Anglesault]

. The issue isn't whether Pedro is a big-game pitcher. The issue is whether Grady Little made a mistake by leaving him in the game. He clearly did.

Hell, I watched the game with about six other really drunk guys, and when Grady came out, we just knew Timlin was coming out (The room was split on whether or not that was good for the Yankees) When Grady left without Pedro, the entire room, at the same time "What the fuck?" With a bunch on "Christ, he is a fucking redneck bumpkin" type remarks thrown in. We were absolutely shocked that he would leave Pedro (who hasn't been much more than a six or seven inning pitcher in a while) in in the eighth

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

One minor detail. Embree was in line to pitch, with Matsui at bat.

[Guest Anglesault]

One minor detail. Embree was in line to pitch, with Matsui at bat.

For over a year and a half, I've gotten those two confused, and I have NO FUCKING CLUE why.

 

I'm sure it has something to do with me not having YES for the first two years and thus missing way too many Yankee games (and I guess some Yankee/Red Sox games).

 

It bothers the shit out of me, because I can watch Mike Timlin pitch, see that it's Mike Timlin, and call him Alan Embree. It makes me rip my hair our.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Perhaps the lack of names on the jerseys.

[Crimson G 0]

I can always tell when I see Timlin coming out. He's one of the many people affected by Marineritis. It's a strange disease that causes people to be awesome before we acquire them and then awesome after we get rid of them, but not in between. Jeff Cirillo is probably the most acute case.

[Guest Anglesault]

Perhaps the lack of names on the jerseys.

Eh, I'm used to that.

 

I think it's because around here, throughout most of the year and especially the playoffs, they were kind of grouped together, like EmbreeandTimlin

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I can always tell when I see Timlin coming out. He's one of the many people affected by Marineritis. It's a strange disease that causes people to be awesome before we acquire them and then awesome after we get rid of them, but not in between. Jeff Cirillo is probably the most acute case.

But what about Ken Griffey?

[Guest Anglesault]

I can always tell when I see Timlin coming out. He's one of the many people affected by Marineritis. It's a strange disease that causes people to be awesome before we acquire them and then awesome after we get rid of them, but not in between. Jeff Cirillo is probably the most acute case.

But what about Ken Griffey?

His best days were behind him by that point. He wasn't even a fulltime player anymore.

 

[Guest FrigidSoul]

If Griffey were in the AL he would be set. He could DH most of the time and then play CF every now and again just to be out there. From everything I've read he's not even in the top 20 CFs currently playing today for range now because of the hammie.

[Crimson G 0]

I can always tell when I see Timlin coming out. He's one of the many people affected by Marineritis. It's a strange disease that causes people to be awesome before we acquire them and then awesome after we get rid of them, but not in between. Jeff Cirillo is probably the most acute case.

But what about Ken Griffey?

Griffey suffers from Seattle Star Syndrome. Whenever a superstar from Seattle whines to get out of town, his career immediately tanks.

 

See: Shawn Kemp.

[Crimson G 0]

If Griffey were in the AL he would be set. He could DH most of the time and then play CF every now and again just to be out there. From everything I've read he's not even in the top 20 CFs currently playing today for range now because of the hammie.

He pulls his hamstring running to second on doubles (he's done it three years straight). The man doesn't know how to run, or is too fragile now. Not even the DH rule can help him now.

[Guest Anglesault]

I can always tell when I see Timlin coming out. He's one of the many people affected by Marineritis. It's a strange disease that causes people to be awesome before we acquire them and then awesome after we get rid of them, but not in between. Jeff Cirillo is probably the most acute case.

But what about Ken Griffey?

Griffey suffers from Seattle Star Syndrome. Whenever a superstar from Seattle whines to get out of town, his career immediately tanks.

 

See: Shawn Kemp.

Eh, RJ and Sweet Lou did pretty well for themselves.

[Crimson G 0]

I can always tell when I see Timlin coming out. He's one of the many people affected by Marineritis. It's a strange disease that causes people to be awesome before we acquire them and then awesome after we get rid of them, but not in between. Jeff Cirillo is probably the most acute case.

But what about Ken Griffey?

Griffey suffers from Seattle Star Syndrome. Whenever a superstar from Seattle whines to get out of town, his career immediately tanks.

 

See: Shawn Kemp.

Eh, RJ and Sweet Lou did pretty well for themselves.

They weren't whining to get out. Johnson was traded because his salary was too big and Lou wanted to spend time with his grandchildren.

[Guest Anglesault]

I can always tell when I see Timlin coming out. He's one of the many people affected by Marineritis. It's a strange disease that causes people to be awesome before we acquire them and then awesome after we get rid of them, but not in between. Jeff Cirillo is probably the most acute case.

But what about Ken Griffey?

Griffey suffers from Seattle Star Syndrome. Whenever a superstar from Seattle whines to get out of town, his career immediately tanks.

 

See: Shawn Kemp.

Eh, RJ and Sweet Lou did pretty well for themselves.

They weren't whining to get out. Johnson was traded because his salary was too big and Lou wanted to spend time with his grandchildren.

Johnson was moping and starting fights over the M's refusal to offer him an extension. Not quite whining, I guess.

 

I heard Lou was on pretty shitty terms with Seattle management by the end.

[Crimson G 0]

Johnson was moping and starting fights over the M's refusal to offer him an extension. Not quite whining, I guess.

 

I heard Lou was on pretty shitty terms with Seattle management by the end.

Those guys are still beloved in Seattle whereas A-Rod & Griffey are basically hated.