The Keltner List

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I change of pace, as I'm doing a player relevant to current news. Feel free to debate this.

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

 

This is the toughest standard. Most players who answer yes to this question can probably skip the next fourteen. As for Edgar, the answer is no, although Win Shares sees him as the best player in the American League in 1995, and Total Baseball sees him as the best in baseball that season.

 

2. Was he the best player on his team?

 

Martinez was the best player on the Mariners in 1995. For the rest of the decade, he finished behind either Ken Griffey Jr. or Alex Rodriguez. Since 1995, no Mariners player has led the team in Win Shares two seasons in a row.

 

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

 

From 1995 until 1997, Martinez was the best DH in baseball. After 1997, Frank Thomas became a primary DH, and he and Martinez traded the advantage back and forth.

 

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

 

Yes. Martinez's teams made the playoffs four times. Martinez hit consistantly throughout his career, and September was no exception. Martinez hit 316/429/500 career in September. Martinez also hit 266/365/508 career in the postseason.

 

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

 

Yes. Martinez remained productive even after he turned 40.

 

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

 

No.

 

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

 

Only three of Martinez's ten most comparable players are eligible for the Hall, and one of those (Chuck Klein) is in.

 

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

 

Martinez scores 20 on the Black Ink test, 107 on the Gray Ink test, and meets 48.1% of HOF Standards. That HOF Standards score is very strong. Martinez has the 20th best OBP of all time, and the 35th best OPS of all time. Martinez ranks 33rd all time in Adjusted OPS+, and 36th all time in walks.

 

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

 

None apparent.

 

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

 

Yes. There are not many designated hitters who are currently eligible who have any kind of case.

 

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

 

Martinez finished in the top ten just twice.

 

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

 

Martinez played in seven All-Star games, a fair total.

 

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

 

Yes. The Mariners won the pennant with Martinez in 1995.

 

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

 

Some credit Martinez's game winning hit in the 1995 Divisional Series against the Yankees as the clincher for winning approval for a new stadium.

 

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

 

Absolutely. Martinez was praised as one of the game's gentlemen.

 

Conclusion: Martinez has two problems. One is that he was a full time designated hitter for most of his career, and two in that his career was not of optimum length. I think his pros overshadow that. Martinez ranks 32nd in OPS+. Only two modern hitters who rank above him (Dick Allen and Charlie Keller) are not in the Hall, and they both played less games than Martinez. His OBP is even more impressive. No stat in baseball is more crucial to offense than On Base Percentage, and Martinez was one of the All-Time greats in that regard. I think Martinez deserves the Hall.

[Brett Favre 0]

Ah. If Edgar Martinez makes it, Don Mattingly should. Don won 9 more gold gloves, and an MVP Award. He also scored more on the black and gray ink tests.

 

And Paul O'Neill, I know, might not even be close, but is he on that list?

[Guest Smues]

Ok I must be way off. I always thought that winning the pennant was winning your league and going to the world series, but this is the 2nd time in a week or two I've seen it listed as otherwise. What constitutes winning the pennant? Winning your division?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ah. If Edgar Martinez makes it, Don Mattingly should. Don won 9 more gold gloves, and an MVP Award. He also scored more on the black and gray ink tests.

 

Mattingly's OBP was also 65 points lower than Martinez's. Edgar wipes the floor with him in terms of hitting, and defense doesn't get first basemen into the Hall.

 

Ok I must be way off. I always thought that winning the pennant was winning your league and going to the world series, but this is the 2nd time in a week or two I've seen it listed as otherwise. What constitutes winning the pennant? Winning your division?

 

A pennant is winning the league. A pennant race is the effort getting there, which includes the regular season. It used to be one of the primary events, but its been watered down thanks to the wild card.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Ok I must be way off. I always thought that winning the pennant was winning your league and going to the world series, but this is the 2nd time in a week or two I've seen it listed as otherwise. What constitutes winning the pennant? Winning your division?

 

A pennant is winning the league. A pennant race is the effort getting there, which includes the regular season. It used to be one of the primary events, but its been watered down thanks to the wild card.

If such is the case, Seattle has no pennant. Indians won in '95.

[Brett Favre 0]

Ah. If Edgar Martinez makes it, Don Mattingly should. Don won 9 more gold gloves, and an MVP Award. He also scored more on the black and gray ink tests.

 

Mattingly's OBP was also 65 points lower than Martinez's. Edgar wipes the floor with him in terms of hitting, and defense doesn't get first basemen into the Hall.

So which position do Gold Gloves count in? Or does defense not matter?

[Guest GreatOne]

Yeah the M's have three div titles and a wildcard. It looked cool in the background as Austin and Rock were duking it out at WM 19 but pennants, no (thanks Arthur Rhodes )

 

Best player not in the Hall? Nah you could ask John Dowd (not the MVP 04 Bonds' substitute either) about that one

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ok I must be way off. I always thought that winning the pennant was winning your league and going to the world series, but this is the 2nd time in a week or two I've seen it listed as otherwise. What constitutes winning the pennant? Winning your division?

 

A pennant is winning the league. A pennant race is the effort getting there, which includes the regular season. It used to be one of the primary events, but its been watered down thanks to the wild card.

If such is the case, Seattle has no pennant. Indians won in '95.

The question involves pennant races. Even if the chase is ultimately futile, a player's individual achievements in such an endeavour deserve analyzation. In this case, Seattle overcame a double-digit lead to win the division. Because they won the division, the Mariners earned MILLIONS in extra revenue thanks to the postseason. Martinez was largely responsible for that.

[CanadianChris 0]

Ok I must be way off. I always thought that winning the pennant was winning your league and going to the world series, but this is the 2nd time in a week or two I've seen it listed as otherwise. What constitutes winning the pennant? Winning your division?

 

A pennant is winning the league. A pennant race is the effort getting there, which includes the regular season. It used to be one of the primary events, but its been watered down thanks to the wild card.

If such is the case, Seattle has no pennant. Indians won in '95.

The question involves pennant races. Even if the chase is ultimately futile, a player's individual achievements in such an endeavour deserve analyzation. In this case, Seattle overcame a double-digit lead to win the division. Because they won the division, the Mariners earned MILLIONS in extra revenue thanks to the postseason. Martinez was largely responsible for that.

I think he's referring to where you said

 

Yes. The Mariners won the pennant with Martinez in 1995.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ah. If Edgar Martinez makes it, Don Mattingly should. Don won 9 more gold gloves, and an MVP Award. He also scored more on the black and gray ink tests.

 

Mattingly's OBP was also 65 points lower than Martinez's. Edgar wipes the floor with him in terms of hitting, and defense doesn't get first basemen into the Hall.

So which position do Gold Gloves count in? Or does defense not matter?

The point is that defense at first base is not as important as defense anywhere else. If you were to rank the defensive positions, 1B would rank eighth, ahead of pitching. Look at the players who have won multiple Gold Gloves at first. George Scott, Vic Power, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, Steve Garvey, Wes Parker, Blll White. None of them are in the Hall. In fact, gold gloves have been issued for 50 years, and only ONE Gold Glove winner at first base, Eddie Murray, has entered the Hall. How valuable is defense at first? Its miniscle compared to offense.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ok I must be way off. I always thought that winning the pennant was winning your league and going to the world series, but this is the 2nd time in a week or two I've seen it listed as otherwise. What constitutes winning the pennant? Winning your division?

 

A pennant is winning the league. A pennant race is the effort getting there, which includes the regular season. It used to be one of the primary events, but its been watered down thanks to the wild card.

If such is the case, Seattle has no pennant. Indians won in '95.

The question involves pennant races. Even if the chase is ultimately futile, a player's individual achievements in such an endeavour deserve analyzation. In this case, Seattle overcame a double-digit lead to win the division. Because they won the division, the Mariners earned MILLIONS in extra revenue thanks to the postseason. Martinez was largely responsible for that.

I think he's referring to where you said

 

Yes. The Mariners won the pennant with Martinez in 1995.

Ok, fair enough. I should have stated "won the division."

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Yeah the M's have three div titles and a wildcard. It looked cool in the background as Austin and Rock were duking it out at WM 19 but pennants, no (thanks Arthur Rhodes )

 

Best player not in the Hall? Nah you could ask John Dowd (not the MVP 04 Bonds' substitute either) about that one

The question references eligible players only. Otherwise the answer would be Bonds.

[Brett Favre 0]

The point is that defense at first base is not as important as defense anywhere else.  If you were to rank the defensive positions, 1B would rank eighth, ahead of pitching.  Look at the players who have won multiple Gold Gloves at first.  George Scott, Vic Power, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, Steve Garvey, Wes Parker, Blll White.  None of them are in the Hall.  In fact, gold gloves have been issued for 50 years, and only ONE Gold Glove winner at first base, Eddie Murray, has entered the Hall.  How valuable is defense at first?  Its miniscle compared to offense.

Curious though, which position has the most Gold Glovers in the Hall of Fame?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The point is that defense at first base is not as important as defense anywhere else.  If you were to rank the defensive positions, 1B would rank eighth, ahead of pitching.  Look at the players who have won multiple Gold Gloves at first.  George Scott, Vic Power, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, Steve Garvey, Wes Parker, Blll White.  None of them are in the Hall.  In fact, gold gloves have been issued for 50 years, and only ONE Gold Glove winner at first base, Eddie Murray, has entered the Hall.  How valuable is defense at first?  Its miniscle compared to offense.

Curious though, which position has the most Gold Glovers in the Hall of Fame?

Probably the outfield, although its hard to judge since the voting makes no distinction for LF, CF, RF. Shortstop probably leads at a single position, with four HOFers and 23 Gold Gloves between them.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Ok I must be way off. I always thought that winning the pennant was winning your league and going to the world series, but this is the 2nd time in a week or two I've seen it listed as otherwise. What constitutes winning the pennant? Winning your division?

 

A pennant is winning the league. A pennant race is the effort getting there, which includes the regular season. It used to be one of the primary events, but its been watered down thanks to the wild card.

If such is the case, Seattle has no pennant. Indians won in '95.

The question involves pennant races. Even if the chase is ultimately futile, a player's individual achievements in such an endeavour deserve analyzation. In this case, Seattle overcame a double-digit lead to win the division. Because they won the division, the Mariners earned MILLIONS in extra revenue thanks to the postseason. Martinez was largely responsible for that.

I think he's referring to where you said

 

Yes. The Mariners won the pennant with Martinez in 1995.

Ok, fair enough. I should have stated "won the division."

 

I caught an error from alkeiper, TSM God Of Baseball? No way!

[Guest GreatOne]

Best player not in the Hall? Nah you could ask John Dowd (not the MVP 04 Bonds' substitute either) about that one

The question references eligible players only. Otherwise the answer would be Bonds.

Shouldn't we at least wait until he, RETIRES?

 

Unless you're talking about Bobby, I don't know if I'd go THAT far........

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I think if you were to take the question literally, Bonds is the best player not in the Hall of Fame. You referenced Pete Rose, who is probably the best retired player not in the Hall, but is ineligible. The purpose of the list as a whole is to evaluate HOF candidates amongst other candidates.

[Guest GreatOne]

1)Bonds said it himself, he's about three years away from retirement so why consider an active player? At least Edgar's already announced his.

 

2)Rose may not be eligible, that doesn't mean he isn't among the best not in the Hall. That isn't exactly the same as 'Best HOF candidate not in the Hall'.

[Slayer 0]

For a guy who did nothing but hit, he sure has relatively lousy stats

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

How so?

[Slayer 0]

I would think a guy who dedicated his whole career to hitting could muster more than 2200 hits and 300 homers

 

Nay for the Hall, says I

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Out of curiosity, did you catch my column yet? I don't want to rehash something you might have already read.

[Slayer 0]

The one at WDI? No

[Slayer 0]

Or the one you linked to here from WDI apparently

 

...no

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

It outlines my argument for Edgar Martinez, by comparing his stats with those of 1Bmen already in the Hall. I think he compares favorably.