2004 WON HOF inductees

[Guest Fiscusalicious]

I wouldnt agree that Angle drew more money in those years than Luger in his entire career at all. For a while in WCW, Luger was the "It" guy in his feud with the NWO. I'm sure that drew quite well because that was in WCW's hot period. It wasn't all to do with the NWO.

 

Not that I'm advocating Luger in any way whatsoever.

[Guest Fiscusalicious]

I wouldnt agree that Angle drew more money in those years than Luger in his entire career at all. For a while in WCW, Luger was the "It" guy in his feud with the NWO. I'm sure that drew quite well because that was in WCW's hot period. It wasn't all to do with the NWO.

 

Not that I'm advocating Luger in any way whatsoever.

[Guest Staravenger]

Angle can't draw dick, and the only PPV that he headlined that DID an exceptionally good buyrate was thanks to the 5 months of pimping for Austin/HHH's 2/3 Falls Match, not the World Title Match.

 

Angle has very poor in ring psychology, relies too much on his Three Moves Of Doom (German Suplex, Angle-Slam, Ankle-Lock) and can't sell worth a shit.

 

Luger can't wrestle, and couldn't sell either, but at least in his matches with people like Flair, Steamboat and Pillman between 1988 and 1990 he looked like he could do it all. Luger was an unmotivated slouch. Angle is the most over-rated wrestler that I've ever seen.

 

Both men are in the same boat, and niether should be in the "HOF".

[Guest Staravenger]

Another Double Post. This thread is cursed I say!

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

What's up with Sting?

 

The guy WAS WCW from 1988-2001 yet he only gets 21 votes, while Angle gets in for having three great years.

Fucking Ole Anderson.

 

Oh and the following people were passed over for Kurt Angle...

 

Mr. Perfect

Sting

Mr. Wrestling II

ARN F'N ANDERSON

Owen Hart

THE MIDNIGHT EXPRESS!

 

What the fuck?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

As far as Backlund goes, I recall reading in last year's preview issue that Dave broke down and admitted Backlund was likely a deserving candidate.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

In terms of influence, Angle and his success has lead to Lesnar, Benjamin and Haas getting looks and subsequently jobs. Right there, that's more than Luger. I'd also be willing to bet that from '00-04, Angle in his various main events with Austin, Rock, Triple H, 'Taker and Lesnar drew more money than Luger did in his entire career. I'm sure if I dig out some old Observers, the business comparisons for the last few years will bear this out. Keep in mind, I absolutely wouldn't have put Angle in yet, but to dismiss him so quickly and call him a joke and liken him to Lex Luger is going way too far. To me, he's a mid-level candidate that needs another 2-3 productive years to have made it. Obviously the voters disagreed.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

Luger/Flair drew more money than Angle ever did.

[CanadianChick 0]

Why does Dave hate Backlund so much?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Why does Dave hate Backlund so much?

It stems back to Backlund's second title reign with the WWF. He revoked the WWF title's status as a "World Title" because he didn't defend against a number of challengers who were fan favorites (Superfly, Andre, etc.).

 

I think Dave always felt Backlund was just white-bread and boring.

[Guest Loss]

Dave felt that while Backlund drew money that anyone could do just as well in that position.

 

PWI revoked the WWF "World" title thing and that was the kayfabed reason they gave, but the real reasons were more political. I don't really know the whole story.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

It seems to me, and I could be totally off here, that most of you aren't avid WON readers nor have you been WON Hall of Fame followers. That is probably the reason why most don't understand why certain people are in/aren't. Let me try to explain (I've been a reader for five years, and while not an expert, I feel as though I have a grasp on how things are done).

 

First of all, whoever posted this was correct, in that the voting is done by industry insiders, wrestlers past and present, and a select number of fans that Meltzer apparently trusts their opinions. This is important, if you think about it, because the casual fan has no say in the voting, which is why guys like Sting, Luger, Warrior, etc., who were on top for long periods of time, never get any votes. Each voter gets up to 10 votes, but is not required to use all ten.

 

In the case of Sting, while he was the franchise of WCW for practically it's entire existance, many insiders feel that he never lived up to his potential and when he was given the ball to run with, business dropped. Pretty much the only thing he has going for him is overness, as he was never really a great worker unless in with the right opponent. Voters aren't supposed to take into consideration their place on the card because that is the promoter's decision and has nothing to do with the wrestler (that's why Beniot wasn't handicapped by never being a headliner when he was inducted).

 

Luger was never a good worker and never a draw. He was on top for so long because of his look, not for ability. Insiders won't vote for him becaues of his reputation and wrestlers won't vote for him because of his attitude. It is reason's like this which kept Michael's out of the HOF for so long. While it might not be fair, and by no means am I saying that Luger should be inducted dispite what he peers think, because he shouldn't, that is the way the voting works.

 

Now Angle was a very controversial decision, and you can see he just barely made the cut. Pros - Perhaps best worker day in and day out from 2000-2003, Great interview, headlined during the biggest money period in company history, and directly led to the signings of Lesnar and Benjamin as well as other amature athelets that didn't make it. Cons - Only has wrestled for five years and never a ratings draw. While the five year argument is a strong one, the fact that he wasn't a ratings draw could be blaimed on the fact that he was never positioned to be one, which isn't Angle's fault. The pros, for me, make it an easy call that he should be in, but I can see why there is controversy.

 

And just to respond to some other names thrown out there, Owen, in all reality, has no business being considered for the HOF, and if he was living no one would argue that he belongs. For whatever reason, it's hard for Tag Teams to get inducted, so that's why no Midnight Express. Perfect is a strong candidate in my book since Dibiase is in the HOF and they pretty much had a mirrored carrer, but I bet his time on the DL is what causes him to be passed up as he was only a great worker for 4 or so years and only headlined in the AWA and briefly in the WWF. Arn Anderson was never a draw (Flair and the Horsemen drew the ratings, not Arn individually), a solid worker and a great interview, but he was always the best man, not the groom so to speak. And Eddie Gurrerro will be inducted in a couple of years, it's just to early for him right now. He has many years left, baring injury, and his work will put him over the hump, just like Beniot, Ultimo Dragon, and Backlund's did.

 

I know that was long, but I hope that clears it up for some. I am really interested in seeing the breakdown of HHH's voting, because I have a feeling the reason he wasn't put in was because of his peer's not voting for him. That is what held Shawn out of the HOF for so long.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Arn Anderson was never a draw (Flair and the Horsemen drew the ratings, not Arn individually), a solid worker and a great interview, but he was always the best man, not the groom so to speak. And Eddie Gurrerro will be inducted in a couple of years, it's just to early for him right now. He has many years left, baring injury, and his work will put him over the hump, just like Beniot, Ultimo Dragon, and Backlund's did.

 

Arn Anderson was part of the most elite and influential stable in the history of pro wrestling, he's been in more ****+ matches then Angle, he's a better worker than Angle, his career was much longer than Angle's seems likely to be, he was a KEY player in WCW since forever.

 

Not a draw?

 

How about as a member of the Four Horsemen? Or The DANGEROUS ALLIANCE? Or his mini-feud with Flair in 95. If you divide the money the Four Horsemen drew with Double A by four you'd STILL have more money than Angle EVER drew.

 

Sting may have fumbled the ball... but at least he got a shot with it. Angle was a comedy heel with his first reign, his second reign as a face BOMBED, and his third and fourth reigns were non factors as he just playe dtransitional champ for Brock Lesnar.

 

The fact that Angle's getting in NOW and it took Backlund this long PROVES what a POS the HOF is.

 

It's a Hall of FAME, not a hall of "pretty good".

 

Angle's ALWAYS been just pretty good.

[Guest Ray]

"Angle was a top/near the top guy in some of the most profitable years in histroy (2000-today)"

 

Angle had mega-draws in Rock and Austin during that time period. During the hottest year (2000) Angle was clearly beneath them (and Taker, HHH), even when he won the WWF Title.

 

 

It really shouldn't surprise anyone that Angle got in.

[strummer 0]

It's going to be a weird situation with HHH. HHH was on top in 2000 and the WWF drew HUGE MONEY then. I think it was Meltzer or Keller that said in 2000, HHH made more money (for this one year) than Hall, Nash, and Shawn combined . But it was only one year. Does that get him in the HOF? One UNBELIEVABLE year and a couple subpar ones. He just missed out this year, so it will be interesting down the line.

[Guest Ray]

Now Angle was a very controversial decision, and you can see he just barely made the cut. Pros - Perhaps best worker day in and day out from 2000-2003

I don't know about that. Especially in 2000. Benoit, Jericho, Rock and even HHH were better in 2000. Angle really doesn't have a ton of great stuff from 2000. Austin and Benoit were better for most of 2001. 2002, probably. He was active in 2002 longer than Guerrero and Benoit. In 2003 Lesnar had surpassed him.

[Guest Staravenger]

If we are going by work-rate Curt Hennig & Owen Hart should be in the thing without an argument. As for drawing money, Owen was not a main eventer much, and Hennig's famous runs in WWF/WCW were upper-midcard and lower.

 

Arn Anderson is THE most under-rated worker ever. I've seen plenty of his NWA/WCW Work from 1986-his retirement and I honestly can't think of a single time he dogged a match, or even had a match that would make me go "blech, what a stinker". The Four Horsemen were GODS to the wrestling fans, and even during WCW's last years, they were still a popular group despite being watered down with losers like Mongo and, years earlier, Paul F'N Roma.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

Arn Anderson was part of the most elite and influential stable in the history of pro wrestling, he's been in more ****+ matches then Angle, he's a better worker than Angle, his career was much longer than Angle's seems likely to be, he was a KEY player in WCW since forever.

 

Like you said, he was part of the stable, however he was never, at any point, except perhaps in 1998 when Beniot and Malenko wanted him to reform the Horsemen, the focal point. Using your logic, Tully Blanchard, Sid, and even Paul Roma should be rewarded for being part of the group. Whether or not he's had more four star matches then Angle is irrelevant because Angle only wrestled for five years, versus Anderson's twenty or so years in the business (which is why longevity is a knock against Angle). Also, he was never a key player in WCW. An upper midcarder, yes, but he was never an integral point of the promotion. Look at the period when the Brainbusters jumped to WWF. Business didn't tank and there were no We Want Arn chants in arenas. When he began working backstage in the latter years of WCW, can you honestly say that WCW would have faired any better with him on the active roster?

 

How about as a member of the Four Horsemen? Or The DANGEROUS ALLIANCE? Or his mini-feud with Flair in 95. If you divide the money the Four Horsemen drew with Double A by four you'd STILL have more money than Angle EVER drew.

 

Like I said, of course the Horsemen drew, but Arn had very little to do with that. Same with the Dangerous Alliance. Flair and Arn's fued was awesome in 1995, but I am pretty sure, though not positive, that Fall Brawl 1995 had a poor buyrate (Hogan and friends/DoD War Games will do that). And if you think about it, I would be that Angle drew money then Arn, just due to the fact that PPV is such a huge revenue stream now and Arn didn't have that luxury. Again, though, this isn't something that you can really fairly compare because they are different time periods.

 

Sting may have fumbled the ball... but at least he got a shot with it. Angle was a comedy heel with his first reign, his second reign as a face BOMBED, and his third and fourth reigns were non factors as he just playe dtransitional champ for Brock Lesnar.

 

Angle's ALWAYS been just pretty good.

 

I don't understand the Sting argument. Explain.

 

He didn't bomb as a face champion. Ratings didn't crash. WWF expected that he would get sympathetic face heat after 9/11 and were wrong as fans wanted Angle as a heel. That reign should be a non-factor anyway cause wasn't it for only like one month?

 

Angle is the greatest all-around performer in the business since Ric Flair. People can knock him all they want, but when it comes down to it, no one has been more consistant in workrate and interviews since Flair. You could argue Austin, and that's a fair argument, but just think how much longer Angle would have been consistant if he didn't have his neck problems. If he went at the rate he was going in early 2003 for another two or three years, most would probably consider him the best of all time.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

It's going to be a weird situation with HHH. HHH was on top in 2000 and the WWF drew HUGE MONEY then. I think it was Meltzer or Keller that said in 2000, HHH made more money (for this one year) than Hall, Nash, and Shawn combined . But it was only one year. Does that get him in the HOF? One UNBELIEVABLE year and a couple subpar ones. He just missed out this year, so it will be interesting down the line.

And the thing with HHH, at least for me, is that how important to the equation was he actually. If he went down with the injury and not Austin in 1999, there is no question in my mind business would have done even better than it did in 2000. If Mick Foley never retired and he and Rock fueded throughout 2000 like HHH, there is no question in my mind that business would not have suffered any.

 

I think HHH was just in the right place and the right time. I do believe he should be in because he has done a ton for the business, but I don't think that his drawing abilities in 2000 should carry much weight.

[Hektik 0]

I just read this weeks HOF Observer, and Angle got in because they also included his Amateur career. It says he was at one time the best legitimate wrestler and one of the best illegitimate wrestlers. Keep in mind that Meltzer also covers MMA and Amateur wrestling (although not as much as Pro & MMA) in his newsletter. Just last week, one of his top stories in the observer was on wrestling in the olympics.

[Guest Ray]

Angle is the greatest all-around performer in the business since Ric Flair. People can knock him all they want, but when it comes down to it, no one has been more consistant in workrate and interviews since Flair.

 

Bret Hart.

[Guest Staravenger]

Angle's promos suck. Sorry, but I don't get a kick out of his "I won the Olympics with a broken neck!" promo when he says it every time he challenges for a World Title. His comedy is sub-par at best, and calling him a great all-round worker is ludicrous. No-selling is NOT a good trait, and Angle does it all the fucking time.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

"Angle drawing more money than Luger"....

 

 

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

 

Check those figures about 100 more times.

[Dark Age 0]

Now Angle was a very controversial decision, and you can see he just barely made the cut. Pros - Perhaps best worker day in and day out from 2000-2003

I don't know about that. Especially in 2000. Benoit, Jericho, Rock and even HHH were better in 2000. Angle really doesn't have a ton of great stuff from 2000. Austin and Benoit were better for most of 2001. 2002, probably. He was active in 2002 longer than Guerrero and Benoit. In 2003 Lesnar had surpassed him.

You really think Lesnar surpassed Angle in 2003? I'd be interested to know why you think that.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

"Angle drawing more money than Luger"....

 

 

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

 

Check those figures about 100 more times.

When did Luger ever draw money?

[Guest Ray]

You really think Lesnar surpassed Angle in 2003? I'd be interested to know why you think that.

Angle's work slipped and Lesnar's work consistantly improved.

[Guest Staravenger]

"Angle drawing more money than Luger"....

 

 

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

 

Check those figures about 100 more times.

When did Luger ever draw money?

1988-1991.

 

When did Angle?

[Guest drdrainoscott]

Angle is the greatest all-around performer in the business since Ric Flair. People can knock him all they want, but when it comes down to it, no one has been more consistant in workrate and interviews since Flair.

 

Bret Hart.

Bret couldn't get good matches out of big slugs, which is something that Angle somehow could do. He's had three star matches with Hogan and Big Show, while Bret could never seem to do that.

 

Not that that makes Angle a better worker then Bret, because that's debatable, but for the sake of this argument I would rate Angle over Bret.

[Guest Ray]

Bret couldn't get good matches out of big slugs, which is something that Angle somehow could do. He's had three star matches with Hogan and Big Show, while Bret could never seem to do that.

Are you serious?

 

Bret guided KEVIN NASH to a very good match. Bret guided a completely blown up and lost Davey Boy Smith to a very good match.

 

Bret's carrying abilities are far beyond Angle's.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

"Angle drawing more money than Luger"....

 

 

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

 

Check those figures about 100 more times.

When did Luger ever draw money?

1988-1991.

 

When did Angle?

1991? I believe that was the worst year financially for WCW until it's downfall in 1999. 1989 was Flair drawing the crowds, not Luger. 1990 the ball was given to Sting, and business dropped. Luger was never in a drawing position in those years except for matches with Flair, and Flair was the obvious draw during that period, not Luger.

 

Angle's fued with HHH generated big numbers in late 2000 before being cut off at the head. He was also the number one face during the Invasion, which, generated mad money, at least at the start.

[Guest Staravenger]

Bret couldn't get good matches out of big slugs, which is something that Angle somehow could do. He's had three star matches with Hogan and Big Show, while Bret could never seem to do that.

Are you serious?

 

Bret guided KEVIN NASH to a very good match. Bret guided a completely blown up and lost Davey Boy Smith to a very good match.

 

Bret's carrying abilities are far beyond Angle's.

Carried isn't the word for Diesel. It was THREE SEPERATE MIRACLES. Bret/Sid from IYH: Its Time was good for a Sid Match, Bret vs. Yokozuna anytime was Yoko's best matches, Bret vs. Yankem (later Kane) at SSlam 95 was ***+, and Bret vs. slugs like Davey Boy Smith (past when he was useful) and Jean Pierre Laffitte all hit **** range of good.

 

Angle couldn't get a ** match out of brock Lesnar, ne of his circle jerk amatuer buddies. Angle/Hogan was maybe (MAYBE) ** tops, if I'm in a Hulking up mood. Angle/Show from Armageddon 2002 sucked greasy dick, and they never really clicked unless in Triple Threats.

 

Angle "Drew Money" in 2001? When?! The Invasion angle flopped, his baby face run flopped, and the whole thing was a fucking mess. Luger in 1988 was the #1 Babyface. In 1989 he was probably more over than Terry Funk as a heel, and in 1990 was still a hot fan favorite. 1991 pre Flair leaving he was still high on the list besides Sting.