The Reason why WWE turned Orton...

[Guest Mickey Al]

Heh. Why would HHH put over Orton for, when he didn't with Jericho in the summer of 2000 that should have made Jericho the star he should have been. But that's a different.

[Guest Brian]

Even though it's nice to be able to look at those guys and point to the fact they killed the draw, you also have to recognize that neither Lesnar nor Angle could influence it in a positive direction. if they were strong enough draws, would have overcome the shortcomings of the promoters. So both lean more towards the middle area.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

Claiming that Brock "not being ready" was the reason WM XIX didn't do well. Is like claiming that Eddy sucked as Champion because house show attendance and PPV buys were down compared to Lesnar's reign.

Not exactly. VKM vs Hogan was the main selling point for that show, so I blame them for the poor buyrate. At the same time, Lesnar-Angle and HHH-BT were right in on that 2nd level in terms of selling the PPV, and it didn't draw well. If people were really into the Lesnar chase the buys would have been higher.

 

So its like you cant totally blame them, but at the same time they dont deserve any praise because the show didn't do well.

 

I see this year's Mania in a similar situation. You dont have the year long hype and the 20th anniversary to sell the show. So you have to rely on the guys they have to sell the show. I'm not convinced that Orton's second title chase story will do any better than Lesnar's. Hence the reason for bringing Lesnar's name up.

The problem's with the show were...

 

1. No one wanted to see Hogan/McMahon, and it got all the hype.

 

2. Austin/Rock III wasn't all that hotly anticipated either.

 

3. The build to both title matches were atricous.

 

None of those three problems were Brock Lesnar's or Kurt's fault. Period. Just like I blame the bookers and not Eddy for the recent downturn in business. That's why my analogy was perfect.

Dont get me wrong, the booking leading up to that show wasn't "Mania worthy", but at the same time, it was still hevaily promoted, if people were so into Lesnar and Angle as a program they would have watched, but they didn't.

 

If it was only about the booking it would be easy to create new "Austin's" or "Rock's" because you could just book the program "the right way". All I'm saying is that it takes both to be successful, and while I would agree the booking wasn't great I just dont think the fans cared about guys like Lesnar and Angle like they did for some of the other guys who drew really well.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

Even though it's nice to be able to look at those guys and point to the fact they killed the draw, you also have to recognize that neither Lesnar nor Angle could influence it in a positive direction. if they were strong enough draws, would have overcome the shortcomings of the promoters. So both lean more towards the middle area.

thats what I'm talkin' about.

[reign 0]

To get back on topic a little I think that Orton's title win and face turn is just about where it needs to be...Benoit is great but like so many have said he can't pull off great promos...they're good..but good in an eighties kind of way...let's face it..even the best wrestlers don't pull in the fans as much as a good to really good worker with great promos and storyline segments do...the WWE has never had a huge run with a guy like Benoit as their champ as much as it pains me to say this and Bret Hart is another example(although I'd rather be watching a Hart style title run with Benoit than what I think will happen in Ortons run) of a guy who was in the same boat. VKM knows that his biggest runs were with Hogan and Austin with the Rock up there too and they continue to think that Orton follows that formula...I can't say that for sure but I like where they've gone with this so far...I want to see Orton play hit and run and have to fight everybody because I think that right now everybody should lose to him to put him over...this could be different run than what we're used to...a true tweener champ..not the badboy Austin type or the super hero Hogan...but a guy who is cocky who nobody can beat...young athletes come into many sports and dominate so Orton should be no different...but this feud with Evolution should have lots and lots of blood...We Need A Real Elimination Match at Survivor Series Vince..or hell even a War Games...just to keep the heat on this feud...

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Even though it's nice to be able to look at those guys and point to the fact they killed the draw, you also have to recognize that neither Lesnar nor Angle could influence it in a positive direction. if they were strong enough draws, would have overcome the shortcomings of the promoters. So both lean more towards the middle area.

thats what I'm talkin' about.

No it wasn't.

 

You were saying Brock wasn't ready, and that somehow related to the Mania buyrate. I disagreed, and Brian said that neither Brock (or Angle, or Austin, or Rock, or Booker, or HHH, or Hogan, or Vince) couldn't influence the buyrate. If anything, at that point, Brock was a better performer than Angle who forgotten how to sell.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Since when is evading a 3 on 1 beatdown "running like a girl"?

 

He got his shot in and left. That's called "smart."

"Dude, that Randy Orton is the MAN. He's so sensible and logical!"

 

 

"I wanna marry him"

Yeah I'm totally with you on this point. Can you imagine kids at school:

 

"Hey Steve, did you see RAW on Monday, Randy Orton was the coolest when he ran away from that fight. He's the man! I cant wait to get in a fight so I can run away just like him!"

 

Spiderman wouldn't have made much of a superhero if he would have constantly run away from battles instead of fighting off the evil villians in NYC.

"Now let's take a look back to last week's Raw where Randy Orton, bah gawd that kid has a lot of heart King, and ya gotta give him credit here, he weighed his options on this one."

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

"Bah Gawd, he's out-cerebraled the cerebral assassin! Look at that kid run!"

 

[jester 0]

I don't think its so bad that Randy Orton ran away. I'm just annoyed that they took forever to make a face smart enough to realize that Evolution gangs up on people.

 

"Hmmm... I have a title match against HHH tonight. Evolution interfered in the last 40 matches. I wonder if they'll jump me tonight? Ah, I'm just being paranoid."

[Boner Kawanger 0]

"What?! Ric Flair is on the apron?! I'll show that cad! Avast and belay, is that a sledgehammer over there?! What is a sledgehammer doing at ringside? It must be some sort of optical illusion."

[The Czech Republic 0]

This just in, Randy Orton merchandise is selling like hotcakes in France. Or croissants, rather

[Guest GreatOne]

For everyone balling on Orton for "running" from Evolution (I guess the new standard according to some is that faces are supposed to fight while outnumbered), uh does DDP mean anything to anyone?

 

'My god, did you see that? He just diamond cut Scott Hall and sent Kevin Nash flying over the top rope, then ran away when more NWO guys came for him. What a coward!', see the heel(s) is(are) the only one(s) supposed to be bitching about that................I guess six/seven years later if he isn't fighting the NWO or Flock 1 on 3, 4, or 5 (whatever) his stock'd be really going down with some of you guys eh?

[NoCalMike 0]

The problem here is that Orton's cheers only came in small pockets of SOME crowds. Basically Vince is justifying the rushed/forced turn by using the Austin/Rock diagram, however if you remember correctly, Austin/Rock both had at least 75% of the crowd on their side as HEELS(cool heels) before they were turned. So basically there was no danger in them turning face because they already had the established base, not to mention their characters didn't even really change on bit, they remained doing the same catchphrases and shenanigans, only to heels instead of faces. With Orton there isn't an established base ready to cheer him, as evidence from last week when he didn't really receive much of a pop at all, considering what had just happen to him the week prior. Methinks that this turn had a lot more to do with Triple H needing fresh meat, moreso then, "oh look everyone loves Orton, lets turn him face" because quite frankly, that was absolute bullshit.

[The Czech Republic 0]

For everyone balling on Orton for "running" from Evolution (I guess the new standard according to some is that faces are supposed to fight while outnumbered), uh does DDP mean anything to anyone?

Hey man, don't worry. In case you haven't noticed, being sensible is a big hit.