Triple H column from the Torch website

[Guest Loss]

Uh Jericho can not be a top heel, this was proven even before HHH 'ruined' him. When people I was watching RAW with at the time say 'Why is Rock back to feuding with Billy Gunn again?' we got problems.

 

Other than that, Benoit can't do it (by himself), Edge (gimme a break), and I doubt anyone really wants to see Lost Smile Kid back at the top of the card.

 

Face it, the moment WCW started to go downhill was the moment that top heel (or face) in the company wasn't Ric Flair.

Jericho, in 2003, with a mirror image push of what HHH was getting, would have drawn money. Jericho, as a midcarder with a belt, does not draw money. Benoit, as the top star on the brand with him being pushed as the most important wrestler on RAW, would have drawn money. Benoit, as a world champion who gets little air time, does not draw money. HHH, with a 12 month break from the main event scene, dropping into the midcard and allowing others to be bigger stars than he is for a while, would draw money when he started headlining again. HHH, when he's shoved down our throats for five years due to insecurity, creates a stale product with an overexposed top star.

[Guest Loss]

Face it, the moment WCW started to go downhill was the moment that top heel (or face) in the company wasn't Ric Flair.

HA! Hogan/Piper and Hogan/Savage drew more money in WCW than any Flair program ever did. The moment WCW started going downhill is when they refused to elevate most of the same guys that are waiting for elevation in WWE now, and insisted on keeping stars of a past era on top, which is also what WWE is doing now.

[Guest GreatOne]

Now you're sounding like Eric Bischoff, congratulations.

 

WCW might as well just have scrapped their name and become Titansouth at the point they decided to hand the keys to Hogan.

 

'If you missed an episode of Superstars in 1991. Don't worry! You can see it all over again next week on WCW Saturday Night!!!!!!!!!'

[Guest Loss]

As a purist, I hated Hogan coming in and making the product WWF lite. But the NWO drew more money than Flair did. I'm not saying that because I like Hogan more than Flair, because I don't. It's a fact.

[Guest GreatOne]

What long term effect did the NWO have on the company though?

 

So actually when the NWO sat out to destroy WCW as an angle, they were actually doing in real life too. Cause by the end of the NWO (in spring of 99 or whenever that was) no one cared anymore. Hell this is why Vince Russo did such a shitty job, cause what the hell are they gonna do, watch Nitro?

[Guest Loss]

I do agree with you there. They allowed it to get out of control, and the time to start changing things up was at some point in 1998. Despite that being the most profitable year a wrestling company has ever had, $55 million to be exact, they made crippling long-term decisions during that time. The seeds were being planted for the demise of the company when Hogan got the keys to the castle. I'll agree with you on that.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

There's something that's just off about Christian. He has the mic skills and charisma. He's decent enough in the ring. If he became a little more serious and even psychotic he could pull off a decent Pillman type heel character.

 

Little goofy Christian isn't main eventing any time soon. That's probably just me, though. I've been wanting a Randy Savage and/or Brian Pillman type character to show in this generation.

It all depends on how the feud w/ HBK is handled. It's started off fine enough, but if it ends up w/ HBK going over and Christian whining about it, then I fail to see what the point of the whole thing was.

 

Christian needs to go over, and needs to look good in doing so. Problem is, I can't see that happening.

[cabbageboy 0]

While I certainly think Flair is one of the all time greats, the dirty little secret is that Flair and the Horsemen never really drew substantial money for any length of time. Nothing like the NWO. When the Horsemen were at their peak the NWA was still a distant 2nd to the WWF. Critics and purists might have preferred it, but casual fans simply do not care to see heels on top of a promotion for most of a decade (which is why Crockett went bankrupt). The constant cheating, Dusty Finishes, etc. killed the promotion.

 

The NWO did draw money for a decent while..roughly July of 1996 till late 1998 (though an exact time when it stopped drawing is hard to pinpoint).

 

I've always maintained that a heel faction or run is best left at a year or less. Have them run roughshod over everyone for a while, then bring in the uber faces to knock them off.

[Guest Loss]

This is why I don't understand why the Dangerous Alliance didn't draw. It was properly set up and blown off, featured hot matches all through the feud, was mostly well-booked and featured a nice combination of established stars, rejuvenated veterans, young guys and big names. Paul E. was great on the stick too. I guess the crowds were still bitter about Flair being gone. That's all I can come up with.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

It all depends on how the feud w/ HBK is handled. It's started off fine enough, but if it ends up w/ HBK going over and Christian whining about it, then I fail to see what the point of the whole thing was.

 

If Kane wasn't put over by HBK, what chance does Christian have?

[Guest Loss]

Or Orton. Or Jericho. Or Benoit.

 

Shawn's track record hasn't been too good since coming back.

[Guest CronoT]

Or Orton. Or Jericho. Or Benoit.

 

Shawn's track record hasn't been too good since coming back.

Well, after getting BUTT-fucked by his old buddy, and having to job to him time and again as soon as he got the title, how would you feel?

[The Niggardly King 0]

Kane could be credible, just because he has bullet proof heat. With the right push, and the right guys working with Kane, he could easily become the Top Heel on RAW, but that will never happen.

 

And it really shouldn't be that hard to get Orton over...but it would have required Benoit to still be the champion.

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

Calling Triple H ignorant is one of the stupidest things I've read in a wrestling article in a long time. He may be selfish, he may be an asshole, he may have a big ego, but he is NOT ignorant. Triple H is always in control, always knows what's going on, and is always thinking, even if it is mostly about how to twist things to his advantage. That's pretty much the opposite of ignorant.

[Guest GreatOne]

 

While I certainly think Flair is one of the all time greats, the dirty little secret is that Flair and the Horsemen never really drew substantial money for any length of time.  Nothing like the NWO.

 

Whoa whoa, so today we're crying about how the product is too oriented towards who draws and not friendly to quality freaks, but now the "golden days" were the reverse all the sudden? Come on, wasn't there a thread a few years back when Jericho was mocking Vince doing 'Stand Back' at the '87 Slammys about how there was a bunch of killer matches on TBS opposite it pretty much in favor of the NWA at the time? What changed, did John Kerry start posting here by any chance?

 

Critics and purists might have preferred it, but casual fans simply do not care to see heels on top of a promotion for most of a decade

 

I know as a 10 year old mark at the time I liked Ric Flair.

 

The constant cheating, Dusty Finishes, etc. killed the promotion.

 

I suppose Magnum T.A.'s accident had nothing to do with it. And Dusty Rhodes' booking nearly drove Flair out in the first place, so it's one of two things here.

 

When the Horsemen were at their peak the NWA was still a distant 2nd to the WWF.

 

And who besides Vince McMahon gave a flying fuck about that at the time? Unless the 'Only concern yourself with what you do rather what the other guy does' adage is flat BS.

 

I've always maintained that a heel faction or run is best left at a year or less.  Have them run roughshod over everyone for a while, then bring in the uber faces to knock them off.

 

So '89 WCW was a failure then? It followed the same intent after the demise of the Horsemen, but the idea didn't work well in practice. The faces overmatched the heels but the product was still great, and I think most of us were just fine watching Flair vs Steamboat 2/3 falls on TBS over whatever was happening at WMV at that time.

[Guest Loss]

It's possible to admit that JCP and WCW were my favorite wrestling company up until about 1999 without actually trying to argue that they were more successful than the WWF. I think that's the point he's trying to make. I loved the NWA, WAY more than the WWF, even as a kid, and I didn't even really get into the WWF at all until the rise of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin. My favorite era ever is probably 1985-1989 NWA. But to argue that it held a candle to 1985-1989 WWF in terms of financial success would be foolish. Just as it would be foolish to suggest that Hogan wasn't a hugely successful draw for two years of his WCW tenure, despite not having too much impact during the other four.

[Guest GreatOne]

It's possible to admit that JCP and WCW were my favorite wrestling company up until about 1999 without actually trying to argue that they were more successful than the WWF. I think that's the point he's trying to make. I loved the NWA, WAY more than the WWF, even as a kid, and I didn't even really get into the WWF at all until the rise of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin. My favorite era ever is probably 1985-1989 NWA. But to argue that it held a candle to 1985-1989 WWF in terms of financial success would be foolish. Just as it would be foolish to suggest that Hogan wasn't a hugely successful draw for two years of his WCW tenure, despite not having too much impact during the other four.

Financially it didn't hold a candle, but aren't we, especially on this board, concerned about QUALITY? I mean hell if TNA were any good would anyone be making the same argument today?

 

Yeah their problem was making sure guys have contracts--Powers of Pain being put over the Road Warriors huge then BAM they're on Superstars next week. But overall I have more early mark memories of old school NWA then WWF, and I'm probably not alone here.

[Guest Loss]

Probably not. Yes, WCW became an entirely different animal the moment Hogan debuted. I wouldn't say it was all "downhill" from there, as the early months of the NWO provided some outstanding television, but Hogan's arrival certainly made the company more of a WWF knockoff and less of a NWA knockoff.

[Guest combat_rock]

Honestly, this angle could've worked if it weren't so rushed. Personally, I would've had Randy go clean over Benoit at Summerslam. Then I'd have him help him up, shake his hand, etc. As Orton is walking up the ramp, out comes Triple H from the crowd (with his sledgehammer, of course) and attack Benoit. Show Randy looking somewhat disgusted at the act. Then on Raw, have Triple H trying to butter up Orton for a title shot (and slyly suggest he lay down for it), only to get shot down when Benoit shows up with a re-match clause. Have the rematch a couple of weeks latter, but have Triple H screw Benoit. This would upset Orton and the two would get into a shoving match only to be broken up and cooled down by Batista and Flair. Then for Unforgiven have Orton say that the mysterious board of directors is hot to see him defend his title against someone else (probably Jericho or HBK). At this point HHH would be getting frustrated, but let it slide. Then when Orton leaves have Bisch come in and tell him that he has to win a number one contender's match with the other face. Also show Orton hanging out with some faces and getting "caught" by Triple H. That way it'll be a while before Orton fights Triple H for the title, and win, lose, or draw, they could have the Evoluttion kicks Orton out angle then.

 

Of course, it's too late for that now.

[King Cucaracha 0]

It feels like Orton is forcing himself to be a face and if you compare Orton's turn to ROH wrestler C.M. Punk's turn from heel to face there is a world of difference. Punk didn't change his character and that is why his face turn is working.

To think, I've been saying this for months.

 

As soon as a WWE heel turns face, they become a weak version of their heel persona. It's happened to Eddie, Cena, Van Dam, Orton, Jericho...yet, the biggest star in recent memory is Austin, who remained 'heelish' but was a face. Shame Vince has forgotten that.

[Guest GreatOne]

False. Austin's character lost some of its' edge as a face, not a lot but it did. Ditto for Rock.

 

Hell everybody's face character is bound to be dwarfed by its' heel version, that's the way it works and has worked forever. A quick check: Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, Randy Savage, Paul Orndorff, Austin, Rock, Hogan. All major faces and heels, which of their characters would you say were better?

 

And I hardly think ROH and WWE are comparable here, even if we're just talking a wrestler's character.