Bret Hart or Ric Flair

[Australian Pride 0]

Every couple of weeks there seems to be an argument, or 'lively discussion', about which of these guys is better. I thought we might as well have a poll on it to see what the board comes up with.

[Guest Staravenger]

Bret Hart for me. Hart may have had his "Five moves of Doom", but he was able to work different styles of matches. You would never see Bret work the same type of match with Sid or Shawn Michaels.

 

Ric Flair does too many comedy spots, and although was a heat drawing machine, wrestled the same match over and over and over no matter who his opponent was.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Depends on how the question is worded.

 

If I had to watch 1 match and 1 match only

 

Its Bret.

 

If the question is who is better overall,

 

Flair.

 

Who has had the better matches

 

 

....damn thats close

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Flair.

 

It's really not all that close. Flair had a friggin **** 1/2 match with KERRY VON ERICH.

 

He was also going hold for hold with Jumbo Tsuruta while Bret hart was whining about how the Japanese style was too stiff for his liking.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Bret Hart for me. Hart may have had his "Five moves of Doom", but he was able to work different styles of matches. You would never see Bret work the same type of match with Sid or Shawn Michaels.

 

Ric Flair does too many comedy spots, and although was a heat drawing machine, wrestled the same match over and over and over no matter who his opponent was.

Every face Hart match is the same. Because every WWF/WWE Main Event level match is formatted the same way:

 

Face starts out hot.

 

Heel takes over.

 

Face makes comeback.

 

 

Flair's career has a lot more variety to it. The technical classics with Steamboat were much different than the hardcore brawls with Funk which were different from the legendary Luger series. Which were different from the Flair/Sting series. etc.

 

Oh and Flair got a **** 3/4 match out of LEX LUGER.

 

Checkmate. It's over.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Not to mention that Hart never had the longevity Flair did. Nor could he work GREAT matches with the variety of workers Flair did. I've seen Flair do a 60 minute draw with Bruiser Brody that was likely Bordy's best match ever.

 

I've seen Flair outwork SHINYA HASHIMOTO.

 

It's fucking Flair by a country mile.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

It's really not all that close. Flair had a friggin **** 1/2 match with KERRY VON ERICH.

Von Erich has never had a match in his career that broke ****, let alone ****1/2. Flair/Von Erich is ***1/4 tops.

 

Oh and Flair got a **** 3/4 match out of LEX LUGER.

What fantasy world are you in? Flair/Luger at Cade 88(their best) is ***3/4 tops. And what Bret did with a MUCH more limited Kevin Nash at Series 95 is more impressive.

[Australian Pride 0]

It's fucking Flair by a country mile.

The fact that the votes are (currently) Hart 9 - Flair 4 would suggest otherwise. Your entitled to your opinion, of course, as is everybody. As far as I'm concerned they're both great, but if I had to choose one I'd go with Bret.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

It's really not all that close. Flair had a friggin **** 1/2 match with KERRY VON ERICH.

Von Erich has never had a match in his career that broke ****, let alone ****1/2. Flair/Von Erich is ***1/4 tops.

 

Oh and Flair got a **** 3/4 match out of LEX LUGER.

What fantasy world are you in? Flair/Luger at Cade 88(their best) is ***3/4 tops. And what Bret did with a MUCH more limited Kevin Nash at Series 95 is more impressive.

Nuh uh, son... CAPITAL COMBAT 90 is easily the best match in the Flair/Luger series and it's **** 3/4 IMO because of the INSANE heat, great workrate (from LUGER????), great sense of history throughout the bout, and just an overall tremendous performance form both men. Give it a damned finish and it's a perfect match.

 

Oh and Flair/Von Erich from the David Von Erich Memorial Show is over ****. Great match, great moment.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

It's fucking Flair by a country mile.

The fact that the votes are (currently) Hart 9 - Flair 4 would suggest otherwise. Your entitled to your opinion, of course, as is everybody. As far as I'm concerned they're both great, but if I had to choose one I'd go with Bret.

The votes don't matter. Who's better to 13 people on the internet doesn't change the truth.

 

Oh and Bret/Diesel was impressive... but not as impressive as Flair dragging *** 1/4 out of EL GIGANTE. AND Flair had a better big man match later in his career with Vader at Starrcade 93.

 

Flair > Hart.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

How about Flair's kickass series with WAHOO MCDANIEL of all people?

 

How about 5 star one hour draws with BARRY WINDHAM?

 

Hart's had TWO five star singles matches in his whole career:

 

vs. Austin at WM 13.

 

vs. Owen Hart WM X

 

Flair had more than that with Ricky Steamboat ALONE.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

I'd just like to add one thing to this thread:

 

 

"WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

 

 

EDIT: Even if you disagree with me, you have to admit I've done a kickass job defending Flair so far.

[Australian Pride 0]

I'd just like to add one thing to this thread:

 

 

"WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

 

 

EDIT: Even if you disagree with me, you have to admit I've done a kickass job defending Flair so far.

Yes, you have. But defend him from what? I've seen no one attack him!

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

It's really not all that close. Flair had a friggin **** 1/2 match with KERRY VON ERICH.

Von Erich has never had a match in his career that broke ****, let alone ****1/2. Flair/Von Erich is ***1/4 tops.

 

Oh and Flair got a **** 3/4 match out of LEX LUGER.

What fantasy world are you in? Flair/Luger at Cade 88(their best) is ***3/4 tops. And what Bret did with a MUCH more limited Kevin Nash at Series 95 is more impressive.

Nuh uh, son... CAPITAL COMBAT 90 is easily the best match in the Flair/Luger series and it's **** 3/4 IMO because of the INSANE heat, great workrate (from LUGER????), great sense of history throughout the bout, and just an overall tremendous performance form both men. Give it a damned finish and it's a perfect match.

 

Oh and Flair/Von Erich from the David Von Erich Memorial Show is over ****. Great match, great moment.

Son? Grow up kid. I prefer Starcade but ok, I'll Capital Combat their best, I'll still take Hart/Nash over it. The heat was good and it was solid(impressive for Luger although he was better than you give him credit for) but it wasn othing above ****.

 

Flair/Von Erich was a GREAT moment, but not that much of a match. IT wasn't bad for Kerry but no higher than ***1/4.

 

Oh and Bret/Diesel was impressive... but not as impressive as Flair dragging *** 1/4 out of EL GIGANTE. AND Flair had a better big man match later in his career with Vader at Starrcade 93.

 

Have you seen Flair/Gigante? No you haven't, cause it's a myth and it supposedly happened at a house show. Supposedly is the key word.

 

And comparing Hart/Nash to Flair/Vader doesn't work considering Vader was a great worker(no worse than Flair in 1993) and Nash, to put it nicely, wasn't.

 

Flair was very good at carrying opponents, I'm not taking anything away from him. But that's cause he had a perfect formula for it(not saying it's a bad thing). While if you look at Bret's matches with Nash(KOTR,RR,SS) they're all different, with the Survivor Series match being a masterful performance from Bret. His performance in that match overshadows Flair's carries of Luger by a lot.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

I'd just like to add one thing to this thread:

 

 

"WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

 

 

EDIT: Even if you disagree with me, you have to admit I've done a kickass job defending Flair so far.

Yes, you have. But defend him from what? I've seen no one attack him!

I think he's becoming underrated by a smark community that (rightfully) sees him as shilling for his boss.

 

Ric Flair, quite frankly, should not be compared to Bret Hart. Flair is on another level. Flair defined an entire generation of Wrestling outside of the WWF/WWE product. Flair was more than a wrestler. More than a Champion. Flair was an institution.

 

Bret Hart, sadly, never really did that. he had GREAT matches... but he was never more in wrestling history than the guy who took over from Hogan until the next big thing rolled around in terms of wrestling history.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

It's really not all that close. Flair had a friggin **** 1/2 match with KERRY VON ERICH.

Von Erich has never had a match in his career that broke ****, let alone ****1/2. Flair/Von Erich is ***1/4 tops.

 

Oh and Flair got a **** 3/4 match out of LEX LUGER.

What fantasy world are you in? Flair/Luger at Cade 88(their best) is ***3/4 tops. And what Bret did with a MUCH more limited Kevin Nash at Series 95 is more impressive.

Nuh uh, son... CAPITAL COMBAT 90 is easily the best match in the Flair/Luger series and it's **** 3/4 IMO because of the INSANE heat, great workrate (from LUGER????), great sense of history throughout the bout, and just an overall tremendous performance form both men. Give it a damned finish and it's a perfect match.

 

Oh and Flair/Von Erich from the David Von Erich Memorial Show is over ****. Great match, great moment.

Son? Grow up kid. I prefer Starcade but ok, I'll Capital Combat their best, I'll still take Hart/Nash over it. The heat was good and it was solid(impressive for Luger although he was better than you give him credit for) but it wasn othing above ****.

 

Flair/Von Erich was a GREAT moment, but not that much of a match. IT wasn't bad for Kerry but no higher than ***1/4.

 

Oh and Bret/Diesel was impressive... but not as impressive as Flair dragging *** 1/4 out of EL GIGANTE. AND Flair had a better big man match later in his career with Vader at Starrcade 93.

 

Have you seen Flair/Gigante? No you haven't, cause it's a myth and it supposedly happened at a house show. Supposedly is the key word.

 

And comparing Hart/Nash to Flair/Vader doesn't work considering Vader was a great worker(no worse than Flair in 1993) and Nash, to put it nicely, wasn't.

 

Flair was very good at carrying opponents, I'm not taking anything away from him. But that's cause he had a perfect formula for it(not saying it's a bad thing). While if you look at Bret's matches with Nash(KOTR,RR,SS) they're all different, with the Survivor Series match being a masterful performance from Bret. His performance in that match overshadows Flair's carries of Luger by a lot.

I can't argue opinions... even if you did forget Capital Combat ( )

 

The Nash/Flair matches aren't all that different. They're all basically about Bret using his brain to survive against the big guy. Again, not to say that they are bad because of it... but he's no less formulaic than Flair and to say differently is just silly.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

It's really not all that close. Flair had a friggin **** 1/2 match with KERRY VON ERICH.

Von Erich has never had a match in his career that broke ****, let alone ****1/2. Flair/Von Erich is ***1/4 tops.

 

Oh and Flair got a **** 3/4 match out of LEX LUGER.

What fantasy world are you in? Flair/Luger at Cade 88(their best) is ***3/4 tops. And what Bret did with a MUCH more limited Kevin Nash at Series 95 is more impressive.

Nuh uh, son... CAPITAL COMBAT 90 is easily the best match in the Flair/Luger series and it's **** 3/4 IMO because of the INSANE heat, great workrate (from LUGER????), great sense of history throughout the bout, and just an overall tremendous performance form both men. Give it a damned finish and it's a perfect match.

 

Oh and Flair/Von Erich from the David Von Erich Memorial Show is over ****. Great match, great moment.

Son? Grow up kid. I prefer Starcade but ok, I'll Capital Combat their best, I'll still take Hart/Nash over it. The heat was good and it was solid(impressive for Luger although he was better than you give him credit for) but it wasn othing above ****.

 

Flair/Von Erich was a GREAT moment, but not that much of a match. IT wasn't bad for Kerry but no higher than ***1/4.

 

Oh and Bret/Diesel was impressive... but not as impressive as Flair dragging *** 1/4 out of EL GIGANTE. AND Flair had a better big man match later in his career with Vader at Starrcade 93.

 

Have you seen Flair/Gigante? No you haven't, cause it's a myth and it supposedly happened at a house show. Supposedly is the key word.

 

And comparing Hart/Nash to Flair/Vader doesn't work considering Vader was a great worker(no worse than Flair in 1993) and Nash, to put it nicely, wasn't.

 

Flair was very good at carrying opponents, I'm not taking anything away from him. But that's cause he had a perfect formula for it(not saying it's a bad thing). While if you look at Bret's matches with Nash(KOTR,RR,SS) they're all different, with the Survivor Series match being a masterful performance from Bret. His performance in that match overshadows Flair's carries of Luger by a lot.

I can't argue opinions... even if you did forget Capital Combat ( )

 

The Nash/Flair matches aren't all that different. They're all basically about Bret using his brain to survive against the big guy. Again, not to say that they are bad because of it... but he's no less formulaic than Flair and to say differently is just silly.

Actually no. Yes Bret was repetitive at times, I fully admit that. But the Rumble match and the Survivor match couldn't be more different so saying they're more different than Flair's matches with Luger is not silly.

 

And yes Flair did define the NWA in the 80's, I'm not taking anything away from his impact or his fanbase. But that doesn't make him a better wrestler than Bret Hart.

[snuffbox 0]

Tough question...I picked Flair.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

"And yes Flair did define the NWA in the 80's, I'm not taking anything away from his impact or his fanbase. But that doesn't make him a better wrestler than Bret Hart. "

 

No it doesn't. You know what does? STORYTELLING.

 

Flair was the Master. Steamboat and Hogan were great at it too. They could draw a crowd into a match and make it the most important thing EVER. Hart could... but not like Flair.

 

And the fact is... Flair's had more great matches with a greater variety of opponants. Could Bret Hart work a 45 minute draw with a greenhorn like Sting like Flair did? No, probobly not. Hart dogged it A LOT. Sometimes even on PPV.

 

Could Hart have a ***** DRAW with Barry Windham like Flair did? How about his classics with a rapidly decaying Harley Race? The Flair/Race cage match SMOKES Bret/Owen as far as a scientific cage match goes.

 

Hart was never in Flair's league: As a draw, as a worker, as a company asset. I'm laughing as I read this thread because I have the Saskatoon match on my computer and I'm watching Flair work rings around Hart while working in all his character bits AND WHILE HE HAS AN INNER EAR IMBALANCE.

 

Plus, Flair could work with guys he DIDN'T like and not no sell all their offense and ruin a Mania Main Event like Bret "Crybaby" Hart did. Thanks Bret for making that Iron Man match so great. Thanks a ton.

 

Plus, Flair/Jumbo is better than any Hart match except for the Austin one.

 

AND Flair/Morton beats Hart/Kid even though Morton wasn't as good as Sean Waltman was at that point. (Waltman was half a step behind Owen in 94, no bullshit.)

[Guest Staravenger]

Flair vs. Anyone:

 

Anyone beats up Flair, Flair falls face first to canvas.

 

Flair chops, anyone no sells.

 

anyone whips Flair to corner, who'll either fuck up his flip to the apron, or do it right, climb to rope, get slammed off, or get a punch coming off.

 

flair falls down some more.

 

Anyone makes stupid mistake.

 

flair beats up knee with the same 2moves for 590608 hours.

 

figure four with use of ropes.

 

anyone no sells more chops.

 

finish.

 

Flair/Gigante 1-on-1 is not on tape, and never have I ever spoken to someone who can prove that wrong. And if you've seen their tag matches, Flair simple takes a beating for 30 seconds and runs. Thatsn more like -***1/4.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Also, Flair was never the guy who got outpopped as a face like hart did for being too whitebread... Flair was the one doing the outpopping.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Flair vs. Anyone:

 

Anyone beats up Flair, Flair falls face first to canvas.

 

Flair chops, anyone no sells.

 

anyone whips Flair to corner, who'll either fuck up his flip to the apron, or do it right, climb to rope, get slammed off, or get a punch coming off.

 

flair falls down some more.

 

Anyone makes stupid mistake.

 

flair beats up knee with the same 2moves for 590608 hours.

 

figure four with use of ropes.

 

anyone no sells more chops.

 

finish.

 

Flair/Gigante 1-on-1 is not on tape, and never have I ever spoken to someone who can prove that wrong. And if you've seen their tag matches, Flair simple takes a beating for 30 seconds and runs. Thatsn more like -***1/4.

Nope.

 

See kids, make a stupid post, get a stupid answer.

 

WATCH the matches, and don't post till you know what the hell you're tlaking about. Flair/Funk was radically different from Flair/Steamer which was radically different from Flair/Sting.

 

Yeah, because when I watch Clash X I'm thinking: "This I Quit match is JUST LIKE the 2/3 falls match Flair had with Steamboat."

 

 

Oh and no one has addressed the fact that:

 

1. Bret dogged it constantly, while Flair built his career on going from town to town and putting on a good show with whichever guy was tops in that territory.

 

2. Hart worked the same WWF forumla match every time he was a face.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

BTW, Meltzer talks about the Flair/Gigante thing so it's more than a rumor.

[JHawk 0]

BTW, Meltzer talks about the Flair/Gigante thing so it's more than a rumor.

And even if the match *was* on tape, would you really go out of your way to see an El Gigante match?

[Guest Staravenger]

Wait...Dave Meltzer DOESN'T lie!? Holy shit, I think i'm going to cut my wrists with my El Gigante aluminum wrist bands.

 

And Flairs matches are almost ALWAYS comedy...I've watched the guy more than enough from 1989 to the present to know. Especially when he wrestles Sting and Luger.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

BTW, Meltzer talks about the Flair/Gigante thing so it's more than a rumor.

And even if the match *was* on tape, would you really go out of your way to see an El Gigante match?

I'd be morbidly curious to see what Flair could get out of him.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

Wait...Dave Meltzer DOESN'T lie!? Holy shit, I think i'm going to cut my wrists with my El Gigante aluminum wrist bands.

 

And Flairs matches are almost ALWAYS comedy...I've watched the guy more than enough from 1989 to the present to know. Especially when he wrestles Sting and Luger.

Why would Meltzer lie? Is there some kind of hidden motive there?

 

Oh and comedy? Bullshit.

 

Even if Flair WAS a comedy wrestler (and anyone who has an IQ over 7 can tell you he wasn't) guess what?

 

That means all it took was comedy matches to draw better than Hart did on his BEST day.

 

Flair is STILL better than Hart.

[Australian Pride 0]

The Flair/Race cage match SMOKES Bret/Owen as far as a scientific cage match goes.

Having watched both of these matches in the past couple of months, I have to strongly disagree with that.

 

Personally, I just find Bret more creative. Yes, he has his repetetive moments, but so do most wrestlers. I'd never seen someone tie his opponents legs together around a ringpost until Bret did it to Diesel. Same goes with the ringpost figure-four, and the sleeper hold counter into a pin that he used on Piper and Austin. Others may have done these moves, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

The Flair/Race cage match SMOKES Bret/Owen as far as a scientific cage match goes.

Having watched both of these matches in the past couple of months, I have to strongly disagree with that.

 

Personally, I just find Bret more creative. Yes, he has his repetetive moments, but so do most wrestlers. I'd never seen someone tie his opponents legs together around a ringpost until Bret did it to Diesel. Same goes with the ringpost figure-four, and the sleeper hold counter into a pin that he used on Piper and Austin. Others may have done these moves, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Bret/Owen was just boring. I'm sorry but it was.

 

Flair/Race brought the HATE with BLOOD and inside a REAL steel cage not that pussy blue bars shit.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Flair is a distant third to Bret and Shawn in carry sacks of crap.

 

And altho Flair did wrestle a variety of ways, Bret did as well in PPV matches. I think Flair overall had better matches, but Bret had better Primetime matches.