Bret Hart or Ric Flair

[Australian Pride 0]

The Flair/Race cage match SMOKES Bret/Owen as far as a scientific cage match goes.

Having watched both of these matches in the past couple of months, I have to strongly disagree with that.

 

Personally, I just find Bret more creative. Yes, he has his repetetive moments, but so do most wrestlers. I'd never seen someone tie his opponents legs together around a ringpost until Bret did it to Diesel. Same goes with the ringpost figure-four, and the sleeper hold counter into a pin that he used on Piper and Austin. Others may have done these moves, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Bret/Owen was just boring. I'm sorry but it was.

 

Flair/Race brought the HATE with BLOOD and inside a REAL steel cage not that pussy blue bars shit.

You can't blame the wrestlers for the fact it was in a blue bars cage. I'm not a fan of the blue bars either, but I still prefer the Bret/Owen match. The Flair/Race match had more to work with, due to the fact that it had the babyface chasing the champion/title. That makes a massive difference in my book.

[Guest Staravenger]

Flair/Race from StarrCade 83 was the most boring match I've ever seen. I was starting to pray for my DVD player to break because I was too lazy to walk the 4 feet to skip the match. 25:00 felt more like 25:00:00.

[Australian Pride 0]

Flair/Race from StarrCade 83 was the most boring match I've ever seen. I was starting to pray for my DVD player to break because I was too lazy to walk the 4 feet to skip the match. 25:00 felt more like 25:00:00.

I'm not a big fan of it either, but I'm happy to admit I loved the story leading into it, and the psychology during the match.

[Guest Staravenger]

I didn't say it wasn't good in psychology or build, it was just so...damn...slow.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

"And yes Flair did define the NWA in the 80's, I'm not taking anything away from his impact or his fanbase. But that doesn't make him a better wrestler than Bret Hart. "

 

No it doesn't. You know what does? STORYTELLING.

 

Flair was the Master. Steamboat and Hogan were great at it too. They could draw a crowd into a match and make it the most important thing EVER. Hart could... but not like Flair.

 

And the fact is... Flair's had more great matches with a greater variety of opponants. Could Bret Hart work a 45 minute draw with a greenhorn like Sting like Flair did? No, probobly not. Hart dogged it A LOT. Sometimes even on PPV.

 

Could Hart have a ***** DRAW with Barry Windham like Flair did? How about his classics with a rapidly decaying Harley Race? The Flair/Race cage match SMOKES Bret/Owen as far as a scientific cage match goes.

 

Hart was never in Flair's league: As a draw, as a worker, as a company asset. I'm laughing as I read this thread because I have the Saskatoon match on my computer and I'm watching Flair work rings around Hart while working in all his character bits AND WHILE HE HAS AN INNER EAR IMBALANCE.

 

Plus, Flair could work with guys he DIDN'T like and not no sell all their offense and ruin a Mania Main Event like Bret "Crybaby" Hart did. Thanks Bret for making that Iron Man match so great. Thanks a ton.

 

Plus, Flair/Jumbo is better than any Hart match except for the Austin one.

 

AND Flair/Morton beats Hart/Kid even though Morton wasn't as good as Sean Waltman was at that point. (Waltman was half a step behind Owen in 94, no bullshit.)

"And the fact is... Flair's had more great matches with a greater variety of opponants. Could Bret Hart work a 45 minute draw with a greenhorn like Sting like Flair did? No, probobly not. Hart dogged it A LOT. Sometimes even on PPV.

 

Could Hart have a ***** DRAW with Barry Windham like Flair did? How about his classics with a rapidly decaying Harley Race? The Flair/Race cage match SMOKES Bret/Owen as far as a scientific cage match goes."

 

Ok I ignored it the first few times but now I must ask, what is this ***** draw with Windham? The Worldwide match? You consider that *****?

 

Flair did good with Sting, I'm not denying that. Hell never once did I deny Flair was talented. But then I look and I see Bret carrying Jean Pierre Laffitte to a good match and Bret making YOKOZUNA looks decent on Raw and I think, wow Sting aint THAT hard.

 

And the Flair/Race cage match is underwhelming. Bret/Owen kills it and Race was deteriorating but he was still a damn fine worker in 83.

 

"Hart was never in Flair's league: As a draw, as a worker, as a company asset. I'm laughing as I read this thread because I have the Saskatoon match on my computer and I'm watching Flair work rings around Hart while working in all his character bits AND WHILE HE HAS AN INNER EAR IMBALANCE."

 

Ummm yah. Flair was the veteran and the champ so obviously it was his match to call. What's the big deal there? The match sucked and neither did anywhere near their best so it's a moot point.

 

"Plus, Flair could work with guys he DIDN'T like and not no sell all their offense and ruin a Mania Main Event like Bret "Crybaby" Hart did. Thanks Bret for making that Iron Man match so great. Thanks a ton."

 

I don't know who Flair hated or didn't hate(outside of Bischoff, Bret and Foley, none of whom he wrestled much) so no comment on this. Ironman sucked and Bret didn't help, but it would've sucked anyway cause selling or not it was boring. It sucked cause it was boring, not cause of no-selling.

 

"AND Flair/Morton beats Hart/Kid even though Morton wasn't as good as Sean Waltman was at that point. (Waltman was half a step behind Owen in 94, no bullshit.)"

 

I heartily disagree. Hart/Kid is a great veteran/youngster match with Bret giving and taking a lot of offense from Waltman and then outsmarting in a good ending playing off an earlier spot in the match. I find it infinitely superior.

 

"Flair/Race brought the HATE with BLOOD and inside a REAL steel cage not that pussy blue bars shit."

 

According to most wrestlers the blue bars hurt a LOT more than wire-mesh did.

[Guest Ray]

Man, how many times are we going to do the Flair vs Bret topic?

 

The answer is Bret. Bret was smarter than Flair. Bret was a better carrier than Flair because he could guide a lesser worker through a match, rather than stooging to make it good like Flair did. Bret didn't make himself look foolish like Flair did. Bret was a better seller. Bret had a crisper, more realistic style. Bret had better execution. Bret worked better transitions into his matches. Bret was a better in-ring storyteller. Bret went into matches with clear gameplans and strategies. Flair didn't.

 

It's Bret, all the way.

[Guest Staravenger]

I think the fact that Bret Hart is the only person not named Shawn Michaels to carry Kevin Nash to a ****+ match makes him the greatest wrestler ever. Everyone, watch his Survivor Series match with Nash. Bret is pretty much wrestling himself, with Nash just being in the way of it all.

[Australian Pride 0]

Man, how many times are we going to do the Flair vs Bret topic?

I opened the poll in the hope that with a designated thread for it everyone might be able to get it out of their system once and for all. It's a longshot, I know.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I think the fact that Bret Hart is the only person not named Shawn Michaels to carry Kevin Nash to a ****+ match makes him the greatest wrestler ever. Everyone, watch his Survivor Series match with Nash. Bret is pretty much wrestling himself, with Nash just being in the way of it all.

It truly is one of his finest moment.

[Guest JMA]

The answer is Bret. Bret was smarter than Flair. Bret was a better carrier than Flair because he could guide a lesser worker through a match, rather than stooging to make it good like Flair did. Bret didn't make himself look foolish like Flair did. Bret was a better seller. Bret had a crisper, more realistic style. Bret had better execution. Bret worked better transitions into his matches. Bret was a better in-ring storyteller. Bret went into matches with clear gameplans and strategies. Flair didn't.

 

It's Bret, all the way.

Agreed on all counts. Bret's in-ring style always seemed more realistic to me than Flair's.

 

This whole thing reminds me of the "Greatest WWE Champion" poll that the WWE did a while ago (which Bret won). I always thought that was impressive, seeing as how Hart has been gone for so long.

[Guest Staravenger]

It could've been wrigged. I'm ALMOST sure SHAWN MICHAELS was in the finals, yet Hogan lost to someone like Kurt friggin Angle or something.

[Kapoutman 0]

Bret is the best of the two. The guy who said that Bret only had two ***** matches in his career is on crack. Also, Flair needed a quality opponent to make his matches look good. Bret could get good matches out of Lafitte, Diesel, Yokozuna and pretty much anybody.

 

On the other hand, I look at Flair vs Rhodes, Flair vs Luger, etc. Sure, they are above what it had any right to be, but that does not mean it makes it good. On the flip side, check matches Bret had with bad wrestlers. It was not just above what the opponent was used to. It was GOOD.

 

That's the difference.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

It could've been wrigged. I'm ALMOST sure SHAWN MICHAELS was in the finals, yet Hogan lost to someone like Kurt friggin Angle or something.

If I remember correctly, final 4 were Bret vs Austin and HBK vs Rock(I think) with Hogan being eliminated in the round before that by HBK or Rocky.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

I think the fact that Bret Hart is the only person not named Shawn Michaels to carry Kevin Nash to a ****+ match makes him the greatest wrestler ever. Everyone, watch his Survivor Series match with Nash. Bret is pretty much wrestling himself, with Nash just being in the way of it all.

Nope. There's only one way to settle this...

 

GORDY LIST

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I much prefer Bret over Flair. As JMA said in his post, Bret was more realistic than Flair; with Bret, you felt like you were watching an intense wrestling match, whereas with Flair it was more of a show, with him doing all his posing and showmanship stuff. That's all well and good, but, for me, I don't want to watch wrestling and have it made obvious that it's all a show. I like my matches to, you know, feel like actual matches, like the guys in the ring are giving it their all, and for all the praise that I can give to Flair, I rarely got that out of his matches. About the only matches of Flair's that I felt like I was watching a wrestling contest rather than a show were his bouts with Ron Garvin and Barry Windham. And while Flair did indeed carry some bad workers to good matches, in all of those cases it's obvious that Flair is making them look good, at the expense of making the match seem like a contest, and that is a turn off for me. With Bret, whenever he wrestled, he always made it seem like you were watching a wrestling match, and not watching a show, and that is what I want out of a wrestler. It's the same with their interviews. While Flair was clearly more charismatic on the mic, and more entertaining, Hart's interviews appealed to me a lot more, because they were sports-style interviews, and treated his matches as serious athletic contests. Flair's interviews were too heavy on the showmanship most of the time for my liking, and, while they were entertaining, it's not how I prefer my wrestling.

[Guest Staravenger]

Bret Hart may not have done classic interviews, but he got his point across in all of them, while Flair would ramble about anything for about 10 minutes. Flair DID have his fair share of serious promos too, but most I've seen are him just having a fit while a microphone was stuck in his face.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Funny thing, I was just watching Flair/Luger 88(not the Bash match the one before it with the stoppage for blood) and I really don't see how anyone could consider this a carry job or call Lugar a broomstick.

 

It really isn't much of a surprise that Lugar brings almost all the high end offense, including some nice mid range stuff like the Elbow Drop, Diving Lariat and a good looking Dropkick. However, Lugar also brings some of the smarter transitions, feeding Flair off a missed elbow and later a miss Dropkick that Flair doesn't even bother to look like he tried to avoid.

 

Yeah, Flair does some good stooging and sells well, though sometimes he goes overboard to comic effect. However that's not to say that Lugar doesn't sell for Flair either, who's offense is far weaker and more low end. Lugar even puts over Flair's punches as a rib injury but the Nature Boy doesn't really explore it with as much offense as Lugar used on his back in the early going. Flair throws some punches and that's about it.

 

Lugar even puts over the leg injury well until he no sells the Inverted Atomic Drop. However it's not like Flair really gave him an opportunity to put the leg over anyways. Espeically when Flair is whipping him into the ropes and cueing up the corner punch spot not soon after the Figure Four.

 

Actually Lugar and Flair work together for most of the match, neither really carrying the other. It's hard to say that Lugar was a broomstick though, when he pretty much brought all the offense, most of which he set up himself without Flair even having to feed him. Outside of the superman chop no selling, Lugar also sold when required and given the opportunity. Flair was clearly the better seller and did more bumping but he wasn't carrying this thing at all.

 

When people talk about Flair carrying all these broomsticks in the 80s, matches like these are food for thought.

 

I also watched one of the Nikita/Flair matches from 88 or 89 as well. The whole damn match was Nikita on offense with Flair doing little stooging and rather basic selling. Hell, Nikita even does most of the stooging. Flair leads him through some brief elementary chain wrestling in the opening but that's about it. Some carryjob. If anything it looked like Flair was the broomstick in this match.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

For those who do not know the Gordy List is basically the measureing stick of whether or not a rassler deserves the HOF. Both these guys are HOF matierial, but the Gordy List is the only truly objective way to look at their careers.

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the best draw in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best draw in his country or his promotion?

 

Ric Flair: No, he was never the biggest draw in the world. Pre-Hulkamania Flair was the biggest US draw, but still was behind foriegn stars like Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba as far as money drawn. He was the largest draw in the country from the build to his '83 title win over Harley Race, to the rise of Hulkamania in '85, then again when he was WWF Champion for two short reigns in '92. He was the biggest draw in the country again from December '93 to Summer of '94 when he was WCW Champion and head booker. Flair was the second largest draw in the country behind Hogan from '85 to '91 as he was the leader and top draw of the number two promotion in the country: NWA/WCW. Flair was the biggest draw in the NWA/WCW from 1983 to 1996 consistantly with a few hiccups here and there.

 

Bret Hart: No, Bret Hart was never the largest draw in the world. During his run in late '92 and early 1993 Misawa and The Three Musketeers in AJPW were both drawing a lot more. Plus, the company didn't really make Hart the top draw till March of 1994. PPVs before that time were usually booked with either Savage or Hogan as the big stars. Bret Hart was the top draw in the country between March and November of 1994. Before this he was not even the top draw of his promotion, and afterwards he would be eclipsed by other members of the promotion (Notably Steve Austin). Bret Hart was the biggest draw of his promotion from Jan. to Mar. in '93 and from Mar. to Nov. in '94. Even during his last real run on top in the WWE in 97 the real money maker was Austin, not Hart.

 

2. Was he an international draw, national draw and/or regional draw?

 

Ric Flair: He was an international draw, as evidenced by how many trips to Japan he made to defend his NWA Title, and even later when he was chosen to face Antonio Inoki in the Kollison in Korea show. He was a national draw from 1981 (his first NWA title win) till 1998 (when his Nitro return bested even Steve Austin in the ratings). He was a reigonal draw from his first matches with Wahoo McDaniel in '74 till he became NWA Champion in 81.

 

Bret Hart: Bret Hart drew somewhat well in the UK, but his international drawing power was never tested beyond that. He was a National Draw from 1992 (His first title win) to 1999 (His retirement). He was a reigonal draw in Stampede in the early 80's.

 

3. How many years did he have as a top draw?

 

Flair: 17 years, as A top draw. About three or four as THE top draw in the country.

 

Hart: Less than a year as THE top draw. 7 years as A top draw.

 

4. Was he ever regarded as the best worker in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best worker in his country or in his promotion?

 

Ric Flair: Flair was THE top worker in the world in '82 and '83. In Japan, Inoki and Baba were past their primes; Jumbo wasn't quite JUMBO yet; and Riki wasn't quite world class at that point. The worker closest to Flair was actually Bob Backlund in WWWF. Ric Flair was consistantly the best US worker from 1982 to 1994. By 1994, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels had passed him, and Owen Hart and Sean Waltman were at his level.

 

Bret Hart: Bret Hart was never the best worker in the world. In the early stages of his career as a main eventer, he had not yet passed Flair. By the time he had in 1994 the best workers in the world were in All Japan. He was the best worker in the country from 1994 to 1997.

 

5. Was he ever the best worker in his class (sex or weight)? Was he ever one of the top workers in his class?

 

Ric Flair: Ric Flair is a North American male heavyweight. Ric Flair was the best worker in his class (as is detailed above) at one time. He was a top US Heavyweight from 1979 to 1994.

 

Bret Hart: Bret Hart is a North American heavyweight. Bret Hart was the best worker in his class at one point. He was a top worker in his class from 1992 to 1998.

 

6. How many years did he have as a top worker?

 

Ric Flair: As a top American worker? 15 years. '79 to '94.

 

Bret Hart: As a top North American worker? 6 years. '92 to '98.

 

7. Was he a good worker before his prime? Was he a good worker after his prime?

 

Ric Flair: Ric Flair was a good (Capable of having a "good" match on a regular basis) worker since his return from the plane crash in '76. He continued to be a good worker until 1999, five years after he had passed his prime.

 

Bret Hart: Hell yes. Hart was a good worker from '82 onward. By late 1998, injuries had caught up with him and he was no longer having good matches on a regular basis, though he still did have a few here and there.

 

8. Did he have a large body of excellent matches? Did he have excellent matches against a variety of opponents?

 

Ric Flair: Even Flair's detractors in this thread have admitted the man has a monsterous body of work. He has had great matches (****-*****) against the following opponants, to my knowledge: Wahoo McDaniel, Harley Race, Rick Martel, Jumbo Tsuruta, Ricky Steamboat, Ted DiBiase, Kerry Von Erich, Bruiser Brody, Barry Windham, Ricky Morton, Lex Luger, Terry Funk, Keiji Mutoh, Sting, Bobby Eaton, "Macho Man" Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect, Vader, Steven Regal, Hulk Hogan, The Hollywood Blondes, Arn Anderson, Brian Pillman. Ric Flair also took part in several ****+ tags as a member of the Four Horsemen and later as a member of Evolution. He was also in two ***** WarGames matches. That record speaks for itself.

 

Bret Hart: Hart's list of opponants in Excellent (****-*****) matches to my knowledge is: Dynamite Kid, Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, Owen Hart, Hakushi, Sean Waltman, The Undertaker, Diesel, Bob Backlund, British Bulldog, Steve Austin, and Chris Benoit. he also had a number of excellent tag matches as a member of the Hart Foundation, and later the heel incarnation of that stable. Most notable is the ***** Canadian Stampede match.

 

9. Did he ever anchor his promotion(s)?

 

Ric Flair: Yes. Flair anchored Mid-Atlantic until his ascention to the NWA title in '81. he anchored the NWA/WCW from 81 to 91. He then anchored from Dec. '93 to Summer of 1994, and in late 1995.

 

Bret Hart: Yes, he did. From Mar. of 1994 till Nov. of the same year. Then again from Nov. 1995 to Mar. 1996.

 

10. Was he effective when pushed at the top of cards?

 

Ric Flair: You know the answer to this question.

 

Bret Hart: You know the answer to this one, too.

 

11. Was he valuable to his promotion before his prime? Was he still valuable to his promotion after his prime?

 

Ric Flair: Yes. Flair was always a very good interview, and even before he had recovered from the plane crash he was managing guys in Mid-Atlantic. He was a valueable asset for any promotion from about '76 to '03 when his body deteriorated beyond usefullness.

 

Bret Hart: Sure. Bret was one half of one of the WWF's best tag teams ever. He was a competant IC Champ as well. Bret Hart, sadly, lost most of his viability in 1998 due to factors that were mostly out of his control.

 

12. Did he have an impact on a number of strong promotional runs?

 

Ric Flair: Yeah, in the 80's if you weren't a WWF fan Ric Flair was THE man. Cornette has been quoted as calling Flair the man who "carried Jim Crockett Promotions on his back, and damn near carried WCW on his back too." When Flair jumped to the WWF he won the Royal Rumble, captured the WWF Title twice, and dropped the title to the man destined to lead the WWE into the next generation, Bret Hart. He also created about tow dozen stars just by wrestling them.

 

Bret Hart: No. Hart had a looong run with the WWF from about 86 to 97. In that time he accomplished nearly everything he's known for: 5 World titles, 2 IC Championships, several Tag Titles, founder of the Hart Foundation, etc. He was also accidentally involved in the making of Austin into the top face. When he jumped to WCW he was mismanaged and lost in the shuffle, by the time he began to make an impact his injuries forced him into retirement. Hart had one good long run, but he never recovered from the jump to WCW.

 

13. Was he involved in a large number of memorable feuds?

 

Flair: Yep. Flair/Race, Flair/DiBiase, Horsemen/Dusty, Flair/Windham, Flair/Luger, Flair/Steamboat, Flair/Funk, Flair/Sting, Horsemen/Sting, Flair/Piper, Flair/Savage, Flair/Perfect, Flair/Vader, Flair/Hogan, Horsemen reformation in 95 and 98, Flair/Bischoff, Flair/McMahon, and the Evolution angle are all worth noting.

 

Hart: Yes. Hart/HBK, Hart/Yoko, Hart/Diesel, Hart/Backlund, Hart/Lawler, Hart/Hart, Hart Foundation/Austin were all pretty notable. He didn't have much more than that as far as great series of matches.

 

 

After reading this... it's not even close.-

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Boooooooring!

 

Are we gonna analyze work or just toss out star ratings and make unfound claims out of our asses.

 

I'm thinking of watching some Flair/Garvin tonight and Flair/Lugar Bash 88 match to see how they hold up as a "broomstick" matches.

 

 

"Ric Flair was consistantly the best US worker from 1982 to 1994."

 

[Guest Staravenger]

Bret didn't have memorable feuds anywhere but WWF? It's really unfair to compare them in that department anyway. Flair was a Main Eventer for damn near 20 years. In WWF, Hart wasn't a main eventer until 1992.

 

Edit: Besides, it's all a matter of opinion anyway. You can throw facts everywhere when comparing Flair and Hogan, but I like Hogan more. Hogan wasn't too good of a wrestler, but he knew how to work a match without being over the top, had boatloads of charisma, and drew more money than Flair.

[Guest jm29195]

Has to be Flair for me, I'm entertained equally by their matches in different ways, those who crticize Flair's matches for being repititive, look at Bret's so called '5 moves of doom', is that not repitive?

I've just watched some 92/93 wwf stuff and after seeing Bret fail to have decent matches with Repo Man, Kamala and Adam Bomb and then see Flair drag what to me was nearlly a **** match out of TATANKA just highlights the differences between the 2.

Also in your Gordy report, it says that Flair outlived his usefulness after his prime in 03, but I reckon he's still pretty good when used in a limited capacity (see the Evolution tag matches agains Benoit/Edge) and can still cut a tremendous promo (see Raw this week) and is still one of the most over guys on Raw... Pls I'm probably bias in this respect but when I saw him live in May this year, Flair and HBK tore down the house at a UK houseshow and had the match of the night hands down, not bad for a guy who was being writen off s far back as 1989?

[Guest Staravenger]

**** is SERIOUSLY pushing that match. Flair/Tatanka was probably around **1/2, which is like a **** match for Tatanka if thats what you mean.

 

Did Flair ever carry Barry Darsow, Kamala, or Bryan Clarke to good matches? Sometimes the only comparison is when both have done the same things and one of them did it better.

[Australian Pride 0]

Did Flair ever carry Barry Darsow, Kamala, or Bryan Clarke to good matches? Sometimes the only comparison is when both have done the same things and one of them did it better.

As an extension to this comment, I was just trying to think of a guy that they both had high profile matches with to use as a comparison. The only one I could think of was Curt Hennig, because they both wrestled him in 1993 (Ric on Raw in January, and Bret at KOTR in June). I cant say for certain he is the only one, but he is the only guy I could think of that they both wrestled in the same year, during the period between 1985-1995.

 

Personally, I'll take Bret's match with MrP over the Flair match.

[Guest Mad the Swine]

The eight year age gap between Flair and Bret makes any comparison using the same opponent impossible.

 

No, Flair never carried Darsow, Clarke, or Kamala to four star matches. Except for perhaps Darsow (as Krusher Khruschev), he's never wrestled any of them.

 

Does Bret have four star carry jobs of Rufus Jones, Nikita Koloff, or Mike Von Erich? Of course not. Hart never wrestled those individuals (unless he put over Jones in prelims in Georgia).

 

To the poster who's mostly heard Flair scream: You're missing a lot. Flair was quite adept at different promo styles. Lots of serious and lots of lighthearted seriousness in years past. When given the opportunity, he's still very at improvising. Sensational in his younger days.

 

I can't say who was the better in-ring technical worker. I'm not a stickler for match quality and my standards are probably different from others.

 

I can say with total certainty that Flair did a lot more for me than Hart did. Perhaps it's because I saw Flair first.

 

Which is all that matters because nobody is going to convince anybody to switch sides.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Does Bret have four star carry jobs of Rufus Jones, Nikita Koloff, or Mike Von Erich? Of course not. Hart never wrestled those individuals (unless he put over Jones in prelims in Georgia).

Flair doesn't have any four star carry jobs of Koloff either. I do have another match of theirs that I should give a watch but the one I just talked about certaintly wasn't a carry job. You can throw any star rating you want on it but you can't call it a carry job, Koloff pretty much did all the work in the match. It's a damn squash for the most part.

 

Flair bumped for his Lariats and sold decently enough but that's hardly carrying somebody or working with them to produce a great match. Koloff did most of the damn stooging as well: biting, ball posting, hitting the ref, even playing possum at one point. I don't undestand why it's just assumed that all these matches are carry jobs without paying attention as to who's doing most of the work in them.

[razazteca 0]

"Ric Flair was consistantly the best US worker from 1982 to 1994."

 

If Flair was not the best of this time period then who was? Are you going to say that WWF midcard of 80s Steamboat, Savage, Dibiase or 90s Owen, HBK, Austin were better than NWA/WCW Flair of this time period?

[BHK 0]

Both men areamazing workers, but...

 

 

Hart/Austin > Flair/Steamboat.

 

and for me, that about says it.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Ric Flair was consistantly the best US worker from 1982 to 1994."

 

If Flair was not the best of this time period then who was? Are you going to say that WWF midcard of 80s Steamboat, Savage, Dibiase or 90s Owen, HBK, Austin were better than NWA/WCW Flair of this time period?

Are you serious? Why would anyone rank Flair as the best U.S. wrestler from 91-94? 92 would probably be the only year that he even shows up on the radar but guys like Vader, Hart, Windham, and Sting were having such strong years that it's hard to make a case for him.

 

I haven't seen enough of the 80s to judge but it is interesting to note that Windham was the better worker in his 2/86 match with Flair. I haven't seen their 87 matches in a long time, so I can't fairly comment on those.

 

I also noticed that Savage's performance against Steamboat at Wrestlemania 3 is better than Flair's performance against him at Wrestlewar 89 as he did alot more to put over the arm work. However I still feel that Chi-Town and Clash are better Steamboat matches.

 

Savage/Hogan Wrestlemania V also strikes me as being better than some of Flair's "so called broomstick matches." It wasn't a carryjob as others claim but Hogan was a very limited worker, far more limited than the likes of Lugar. I wouldn't be so bold to say Savage was a better worker throughout the late 80s but I would be curious to see more of Macho before I wrote him off.

 

I would like to say Eaton was the better worker from 85-88 but his stuff is limited to tag work with no standout singles matches that I can recall. However it is evident that he had a larger more modern moveset, wasn't as limited a bumper as Flair, was a better seller, and a much better stooge. But yeah, no standout singles matches that I know of at the moment but the Clash I match against the Fans comes close and it's better than any Flair match from the 80s.

 

I know Tommy Rogers was the better worker but he never really cut loose and showed what he could he do until he got to All Japan in the early 90s. He mostly played a face in peril but even than you could still catch glimpses of his greatness.

[Guest jm29195]

**** is SERIOUSLY pushing that match. Flair/Tatanka was probably around **1/2, which is like a **** match for Tatanka if thats what you mean.

 

 

Yeah on reflection you're right with that, it just made me sit up and take notice seeing Tatanka actualy have an enjoyable match....

 

 

QUOTE (Staravenger @ Sep 30 2004, 07:42 AM)

Did Flair ever carry Barry Darsow, Kamala, or Bryan Clarke to good matches? Sometimes the only comparison is when both have done the same things and one of them did it better. 

 

 

As an extension to this comment, I was just trying to think of a guy that they both had high profile matches with to use as a comparison. The only one I could think of was Curt Hennig, because they both wrestled him in 1993 (Ric on Raw in January, and Bret at KOTR in June). I cant say for certain he is the only one, but he is the only guy I could think of that they both wrestled in the same year, during the period between 1985-1995.

 

Personally, I'll take Bret's match with MrP over the Flair match.

 

 

How about the Bret/1-2-3 Kid match vs the Flair Syxx Pac match- I've never seen either so I'm not sure how they're rated... I was going to suggest comparing one of the Flair/Piper matches from the 80's against the Piper/Bret match from Wrestlmania 8 ubt seeing as those are nearlly 10 years apart they might not be totally accurate. If you want to be really masochistic though, why don't you compare the Flair/Piper match from Slamboree 99 to the Bret/Piper match from the 11/02/99 Nitro and see which one is worse- I personally would go with the Bret/Piper one but they are both pretty shocking.....

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Savage/Hogan Wrestlemania V also strikes me as being better than some of Flair's "so called broomstick matches."  It wasn't a carryjob as others claim but Hogan was a very limited worker, far more limited than the likes of Lugar.  I wouldn't be so bold to say Savage was a better worker throughout the late 80s but I would be curious to see more of Macho before I wrote him off.

For Savage I suggest you get your hands on his DiBiase series(specifically their MSG match and their Wrestlefest match), his SNME matches with Hart & Roberts(best Bret match I've seen pre-1992), his matches with Tito(Boston Garden and the rematches although non-clipped versions are damn near impossible to find), his first match with Steamboat(from Maple Leaf Gardens which, IMO, would blow WM3 out of the water had it had an ending) and some of his earlier matches with Hogan(around late 85-mid 86) where Savage wrestlers 'Flair style'(as in basically stooging and bumping around for Hogan) but does without any of Flair's comic touches.

 

That's just a start if you wanna see some late 80's Savage(not counting the obvious WWF PPV stuff, cause I for one consider the Warrior carry at WM7 superior to any carry Flair has ever done).