(observer) edge jumps past rvd

[Guest alfdogg]

I mentioned this in another thread about Angle: After he jobs at JD (it's pretty obvious we're not going to see a bald Edge), I think he might go have his surgery.  I don't actually see Angle walking around with a bald head.  Surely all the hair he's got can grow back in while he recovers.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

i figure the hair vs. hair match will be a cope out. with no one getting shaved.

[Guest alfdogg]

mainly because he doesn't have his own music video. (HHH)

 

So what you're saying is HHH got the title back because he had a music video?  Jeez, with that logic, Edge probably IS in line for a title run...he had a Creed video during the InVasion.

[Guest alfdogg]

Hey CWM, I have a question in the OAOOOCAST I need you to answer for me.

[Guest Risk]

Did Lou Thesz need to cut a good promo to be over?  No.  Neither does Benoit.  I think the marks want more sports and less entertainment, just a theory.

[Guest]

So what you're saying is HHH got the title back because he had a music video?

I'm saying that it only took HHH two (three? i forgot already) months to get the title back because we spent two months hearing about his big comeback. I only mentioned the music video, because, even after all this time, I still like making fun of that stupid ass music video. HA! When people see HHH now they think of Bono singing like a girl, no wonder nobody gives a rat tit about what he does anymore.

[Guest]

Benoit does have a music video; they've played it on Smackdown once or twice. The song is Our Lady Peace's version of Benoit's entrance music. The video is shorter and not as fancy as Trips', nor has it been played as often (but that might change the closer to his return), but it's still a video.

[Guest Brian]

The thing is, Triple H and Benoit both have a really good storyline to cruise to the title. The difference, is Triple H's push failed so they probably won't take the same approach with Benoit. Subtleness and a big pay off. A slower build to the title.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The thing is, Triple H and Benoit both have a really good storyline to cruise to the title. The difference, is Triple H's push failed so they probably won't take the same approach with Benoit. Subtleness and a big pay off. A slower build to the title.

Good point. I would expect to see Benoit brought in as an upper-midcarder feuding with Angle or maybe Jericho.

[Guest godthedog]

guys, wake up.  even if benoit does win the title, he'll never be anything more than a transitional champion, and he's certainly not the man to build the company around.

 

being the center of the company involves the ability to carry anyone, in a feud or in the ring.  benoit can DEFINITELY bring it in the ring, but the man just sucks on the mic.  the wwf has had to make him feud with guys that have better mic skills to build him up.  if he feuds with somebody like rvd, televisions all over america would switch off because it would be so boring.  you can't be the center of the company on wrestling ability alone.  it's a miracle that benoit is as high on the card as he is, & i think this is more due to him being liked a lot by the boys in the back than being insanely over.  cause, let's face it, benoit is not as over as any other main event player

 

the best thing the wwf's done to get benoit over is make him wrestle like mad; & this could definitely build him into another ricky steamboat, but it can't build him into another ric flair.  in addition, it's obvious that his body can't take it if they keep making him wrestle like mad.  he can be a main eventer, he can even be champion, but he can't be the number 1 man in the company.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

The WWF is showing how much they depend on 2 guys: Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock. There is no one in wrestling even close to these two.

[Guest mathbrat]

Alright, there are two problems that I've noticed in this thread.

 

1. Kurt Angle will not be the WWF Champion for years, not because he isn't worthy, but because he has been approved for a two year hiatus to train for the Olympics, as reported in Sports Illustrated. I would not have believed this if I hadn't read it myself in a very credible magazine. Thus departing, I would imagine Judgement Day is the last time we see him for at least a few months, with the "hair vs. hair" stip a good way to see him out.

 

2. RVD cannot main event until he learns how to cut a promo. I know many of you think that you don't need to talk to be a champ, but it is very neccessary. PPV buyrates are dependent on the hype put into a show, and if either the champ or contender can't pimp the show well, convince people they should pay their hard-earned money to see him win, then you can't build a company around him. RVD needs to take some acting courses or something, because the last time I recall him getting mic time he sounded far too much like a rambling stoner for my liking. It may not be his fault, but his voice is kind of grating.

 

That's my $2200.02

[Guest]

Damnit, No one has answered my question yet! What F'N surgery does Angle need done?

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Damnit, No one has answered my question yet! What F'N surgery does Angle need done?

 

Anglesault will know.  Try sending him a PM.

[Guest mathbrat]

Fine, in answer to your question, Angle needs neck surgery. If you'll remember Unforgiven 2001, they ran an aborted angle about how bad Angles neck was then had Austin piledrive him on concrete to reinforce that fact.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Okay, this whole RVD/Edge thing has pissed me off and I even like both guys.  First off, if that observer crap is true the WWF is insane.  Let's see....Edge has a nice match with a guy who has been carrying damn near everyone in the company at the PPV.  RVD has a real good match with Eddie as well but for some reason it was labelled as a disappointment.

 

Let's take a look at this for a second.  Edge has ONE good match out of like 10 PPVs.  RVD has one slightly off night (though still a good match) with a rusty Eddie Guerrero out of about 10 PPVs.  Nevermind the fact that Van Dam carried the fucking Taker to some decent matches, or actually had a decent match with Goldust and Regal.

 

Honestly, I saw Edge feud with Regal and I saw RVD's short feud with him.  I know without a shadow of a doubt that Van Dam is a vastly superior performer.  Edge can only have a real good match when someone carries him.  He can't have a good to great match with anyone beneath him or even with him in talent.

 

In reality it all comes down to this:  the WWF desperately wants Edge to succeed because they want to push him and they developed him.  They would rather not have RVD succeed because after all, he isn't really a WWF guy at heart.  So basically Edge has one good match (and mark my words, his rematch with Angle will suck ass) and the WWF forgets the horrible series he had with Regal, a crappy series against Test, and a disappointing match with Booker T.  RVD has one slightly off night and the WWF forgets his excellent efforts against Jeff Hardy, Jericho, Angle and Austin, UT, etc.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

does it REALLY matter how talented someone is as long as they're over? I'm sure that if a retarded egg got huge pops but had crappy matches then the retarded egg would get pushed until the pops stopped popping. They might even try a sympathy angle where Mark Henry does a splash and crushes the retarded egg like a bug. It'll be great! I can't wait for thi-oh yeah. I'm just saying, RVD is over, talented or not (I like him, but that's not important is it? NO!) if he's over they'll push him, probably.

 

I'm sorry if I've missed the point completely.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

does it REALLY matter how talented someone is as long as they're over? I'm sure that if a retarded egg got huge pops but had crappy matches then the retarded egg would get pushed until the pops stopped popping.

You shouldn't talk about Hulk Hogan that way Ravenbomb, he may be a has-been but calling him a retarded egg is just mean!

 

Wha... Hulk DOESN'T draw? People DON'T want to see crappy Hogan promos and matches? Whoa... I had NO idea! As for RVD vs. Edge, a few months ago I would've said RVD, but now I'm actually sorta kinda leading towards Edge [::entire OAOAT collectively gasp, "WHAT?!"::].  When I first saw RVD's matches I'd never seen his spots before, and the "oohs" and "ahhs" follow.  But, sure enough, after seeing RVD limited, like all "WWF style" wrestlers, to two or three "signature" spots, I must say I'm not as impressed by him in the ring as I used to be anymore.  Not to mention he's terrible on the mic.

 

The problem is that Edge isn't that great either.  If he hadn't been feuding with Angle, there's no way the match would've been good (and even though I'm an Angle fan, look at any of Edge's matches with Regal, and compare them with the Backlash match).  He tries, but he's just not funny on the mic as a singles wrestler, and he was "shenanigan"-ed out with E&C (hmmm... I could make the "reform E&C" argument again, but I won't since it's sadly never going to happen).

 

I'd have to say, for right now, the company has no direction.  It needs to build up RVD and Edge before it can make either of them into "main eventers".  I'd be much happier with crap for a little while longer if I knew that was going on, then to see unprepared misguided pushes amidst the crap that at best would make it only temporarily less crappy.

[Guest]

Fine, in answer to your question, Angle needs neck surgery. If you'll remember Unforgiven 2001, they ran an aborted angle about how bad Angles neck was then had Austin piledrive him on concrete to reinforce that fact.

 

Methinks that was just to build sympathy heat on Angle for his match with Austin. Yes, Angle did compete in the Olympics with a bum neck--which they mentioned repeatedly during that storyline--but that was six years ago. It seems illogical that Angle would go that long without having his neck worked on if it was a genuine problem.

[Guest alfdogg]

I think Kurt was originally injured at KOTR last year.

 

the man just plain sucks on the mic.

 

Then give him someone to do his talking for him, like AA.  HHH sucks on the mic, too, but he's in main events.

 

if he feuds with somebody like rvd, televisions all over america would switch off because it would be so boring.

 

Once again, give Benoit a mouthpiece, and I'm sure most of the marks aren't going to notice the actual skill of RVD on the mic.  They'll just think he sounds cool.  I think this was a slight exaggeration on your part.  Even if the promos do suck, I can't think of anyone who would find a match between these two boring (except you, I guess).

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I think the idea of mic skills has been taken in the wrong direction. Many people talk of mic skills as if there is one clear cut deffinition of promo. I don't think there was ever anything wrong with RVD's promo skills. In his first run in the WWF, he didn't cut a single serious promo, yet he was as over as anyone else in the company at the time. His ability to play a character superceeded his "lack of intensity" as certain people would lable him. The ability to portray a character is more important than being able to cut the traditional WWF promo. Do you think Undertaker is over right now because of his promo's? Taker's promos lately have been horrendous, and I guarentee you Benoit can do better. The difference is that Taker destroys people every week and has been built up so much that we're to believe the entire locker room is afraid of him. Of course he's over. But his promos aren't the reason.

 

If Benoit can get the company fully behind him again, he'll be over for sure in no time. The guy was quite over before the injury, even more so than Jericho, who is usually regarded as being way ahead of Benoit as far as promo skills go. If Benoit can get a push again when he returns, I think he'll do fine. RVD would benafit from a push, too, but I don't see that happening.

[Guest alfdogg]

I think the idea of mic skills has been taken in the wrong direction. Many people talk of mic skills as if there is one clear cut deffinition of promo. I don't think there was ever anything wrong with RVD's promo skills. In his first run in the WWF, he didn't cut a single serious promo, yet he was as over as anyone else in the company at the time. His ability to play a character superceeded his "lack of intensity" as certain people would lable him. The ability to portray a character is more important than being able to cut the traditional WWF promo. Do you think Undertaker is over right now because of his promo's? Taker's promos lately have been horrendous, and I guarentee you Benoit can do better. The difference is that Taker destroys people every week and has been built up so much that we're to believe the entire locker room is afraid of him. Of course he's over. But his promos aren't the reason.

 

If Benoit can get the company fully behind him again, he'll be over for sure in no time. The guy was quite over before the injury, even more so than Jericho, who is usually regarded as being way ahead of Benoit as far as promo skills go. If Benoit can get a push again when he returns, I think he'll do fine. RVD would benafit from a push, too, but I don't see that happening.

Well said, man.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

I think the idea of mic skills has been taken in the wrong direction. Many people talk of mic skills as if there is one clear cut deffinition of promo. I don't think there was ever anything wrong with RVD's promo skills. In his first run in the WWF, he didn't cut a single serious promo, yet he was as over as anyone else in the company at the time. His ability to play a character superceeded his "lack of intensity" as certain people would lable him. The ability to portray a character is more important than being able to cut the traditional WWF promo.

The problem with RVD's promos are that the character he portrays is someone you want to chill out, smoke a fatty and drink with, not someone you could take seriously in a fight or match.  Sure, I want to borrow RVD's CDs and yell "Party at RVD's house!", but I doubt that party would ever be for him winning a title, since he's just not serious enough about it.  Call me brainwashed by the "traditional WWF promo", but that's how I see it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I'm glad someone went back to the promo thing for RVD.

 

Not getting promo time and not being able to cut a promo are 2 different things.

 

On the off chance that RVD has gotten the mic...he certainly isn't worse than Edge. Thus drawing this argument to a close.

 

But furthermore...All a promo has to do is:

 

1.  Get the wrestler over (which RVD doesn't need)

 

2.  Get the angle over (when was the last RVD angle?  the mini-Jericho program that got scrapped?  I seem to recall an effective promo from Jericho the ahow after RVD almost won the blet on RAw that RVD interrupted with his new "focused" attitude.  That angle not only was working...but would have made RVD "more intense" and dropped the laid back attitude.  The whole thing worked without him ever uttering a word.  Don't blame him for it being canceled on January 7.

 

When he was in ECW he cut great promos.  Look at Barely Legal for the best example I can remember.  Good stuff that set up the Sabu/RVD/ Alfonso angle for what...2 years?

 

Just because he doesn't get time doesn't mean he cant.

 

On heat before No Way Out he cut a good promo about the Goldust match that the crowd was really into.  And I haven't seen one since.

 

So please don't play that groundless card anymore.

[Guest]

I think the idea of mic skills has been taken in the wrong direction. Many people talk of mic skills as if there is one clear cut deffinition of promo. I don't think there was ever anything wrong with RVD's promo skills. In his first run in the WWF, he didn't cut a single serious promo, yet he was as over as anyone else in the company at the time. His ability to play a character superceeded his "lack of intensity" as certain people would lable him. The ability to portray a character is more important than being able to cut the traditional WWF promo.

The problem with RVD's promos are that the character he portrays is someone you want to chill out, smoke a fatty and drink with, not someone you could take seriously in a fight or match.  Sure, I want to borrow RVD's CDs and yell "Party at RVD's house!", but I doubt that party would ever be for him winning a title, since he's just not serious enough about it.  Call me brainwashed by the "traditional WWF promo", but that's how I see it.

Then perhaps they should change that opinon. I would do this.... I would have someone make a comment about his wife/accident (nothing really distasteful.. explain the situation BEFORE the comment somehow)... and then have RVD just beat the shit out of him backstage... blood etc.  Just a good old fashioned jumping (remember when the WWF used to do that?).  

 

Then said wrestler interferes with RVD's match and maybe beats him down and then RVD at somepoint comes out and does like the Van Daminator or something and just have a emotional hard hitting ( or as everyone likes to say INTENSE) match a PPV.  

 

You just need to tweak it so he has at least a 2 dimensional character instead of the 1 dimension he has now.  Of course most of the people in the WWF right now have one dimension and that is half the problem.

[Guest alfdogg]

I'm glad someone went back to the promo thing for RVD.

 

Not getting promo time and not being able to cut a promo are 2 different things.

 

On the off chance that RVD has gotten the mic...he certainly isn't worse than Edge. Thus drawing this argument to a close.

 

But furthermore...All a promo has to do is:

 

1.  Get the wrestler over (which RVD doesn't need)

 

2.  Get the angle over (when was the last RVD angle?  the mini-Jericho program that got scrapped?  I seem to recall an effective promo from Jericho the ahow after RVD almost won the blet on RAw that RVD interrupted with his new "focused" attitude.  That angle not only was working...but would have made RVD "more intense" and dropped the laid back attitude.  The whole thing worked without him ever uttering a word.  Don't blame him for it being canceled on January 7.

 

When he was in ECW he cut great promos.  Look at Barely Legal for the best example I can remember.  Good stuff that set up the Sabu/RVD/ Alfonso angle for what...2 years?

 

Just because he doesn't get time doesn't mean he cant.

 

On heat before No Way Out he cut a good promo about the Goldust match that the crowd was really into.  And I haven't seen one since.

 

So please don't play that groundless card anymore.

Even more well said.

[Guest mathbrat]

Perhaps he has cut good promos in the past- I would not know. My wrestling background 1994-1995 WWF and September 1999 to today, so I haven't seen any of his ECW work minus a video of a match of his from Morpheus, and I make a habit of missing pre-PPV Heat. I admit I could've checked more for his work, but I bet the average fan has probably even less that "experience". I'll reconsider when he gets his next promo in 2004.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

RVD's promo skills in his first run were more than sufficient, in my opinion. His character was that of someone who full of himself, yet never let anything bruise his pride or get to him. He took everything in stride, never letting anyone intimidate him or get under his skin. He either didn't bother with whoever was challenging him, or settled things in the ring, where he usually won. He was arrogant, but had a right to be. He was everything the intense hosses the WWF loves to push aren't, and that's why he got over. The fans could relate to him, and that's the best way to get over of them all. Austin became a megastar with a character people could relate to, and RVD could have done the same. Maybe his layed-back character would appear weak to some, especially compared to the large-than-life super-heroes of HHH and Hogan that run the WWF today. However, what have those super-human acts done to draw lately? Nothing, and that's because no one can relate to them.

 

As for Benoit, I don't think anyone gives this guy enough credit. His promo skills have improved leaps and bounds since he came to the WWF, and even now I think he's way under-rated. Also, I don't understand how anyone can say he has no charisma. Obviously the guy has charisma, because people like his matchs and whether they're boing him or cheering him, he draws them into the match and has them in the palm of his hand. he can play a cocky technician or a psychopathic brawler, and that's why people can always get into his character. To me, that is charisma. Then again, far be it for me to value such silly traits as charisma and ring presence over being able to cut a plodding, 20-minute promo like Taker and HHH can.

[Guest bcu1979]

I think the idea of mic skills has been taken in the wrong direction. Many people talk of mic skills as if there is one clear cut deffinition of promo. I don't think there was ever anything wrong with RVD's promo skills. In his first run in the WWF, he didn't cut a single serious promo, yet he was as over as anyone else in the company at the time. His ability to play a character superceeded his "lack of intensity" as certain people would lable him. The ability to portray a character is more important than being able to cut the traditional WWF promo. Do you think Undertaker is over right now because of his promo's? Taker's promos lately have been horrendous, and I guarentee you Benoit can do better. The difference is that Taker destroys people every week and has been built up so much that we're to believe the entire locker room is afraid of him. Of course he's over. But his promos aren't the reason.

 

If Benoit can get the company fully behind him again, he'll be over for sure in no time. The guy was quite over before the injury, even more so than Jericho, who is usually regarded as being way ahead of Benoit as far as promo skills go. If Benoit can get a push again when he returns, I think he'll do fine. RVD would benafit from a push, too, but I don't see that happening.

You bring up some strong points. I agree that not everyone has to fit the same mold and cut the same style of promos. And it really does come down to the WWF deciding who they want to push in the end. All the people being discussed in this thread have the talent to make it to the top. It's just a matter of the WWF deciding they are going to push them to the top and then work with them through their growing pains.

 

I also agree that Taker's promos are awful and his ring work is not much better. Yeah, he works hard. Big deal. Who doesn't work hard in the WWF? But I disagree with the idea that Taker is still over huge. He gets a big pop during his entrance but there's no reaction to his matches or his interviews. The crowd was so bored during his promo on RAW that they didn't even bother to chant "WHAT" at him. There was absolutely no reaction until Hogan came out. Judging by the number of people who turned their tv's off to Hogan/Taker this week, Judment Day is probably going to do an even worse buyrate than Backlash.

 

But in regards to your main point, I do feel that RVD, and Benoit for that matter, has to improve his promo skills if he wants to become a permanent main eventer. The WWF has a formula. And right or wrong that formula includes the main event wrestlers carrying 20 minute in-ring promos on a regular basis. Austin, Rock, Triple H, Jericho and Angle can all do it. If RVD can work his cool, "non-intense" character into those promos, that's great. But he can't get by on letting his opponent do all the mic work for both of them (i.e. - the short Jericho feud) for very long.

 

This feud with Eddie Guerrero is really going nowhere and I think a big part of the problem is that RVD has not cut any promos. How does he feel about losing the belt? What are his thoughts on Eddie beating him with the frog splash? I have no idea. The announcers act as RVD's voice. They announced on Heat that he had challenged Eddie to a rematch at JD. It would have been much more effective if RVD had cut the promo himself.

 

The funny thing is that RVD seemed to be getting better and then he just stopped getting interview time. I thought the interview he cut on Goldust on the Heat before No Way Out was his best promo to date and I don't think he has cut a promo since then.  And that kind of takes us back to the same problem in WCW. If a guy cut a few promos and did a bad job, he was never given the mic again and labeled as a bad promo. Well, how is he supposed to get better if he never gets any promo time?

 

Also, I know this has somehow become fact on the internet. But, when was Chris Benoit ever more over than Chris Jericho? Benoit got a much bigger push going into the triple threat at KOTR and thus was considered the stronger threat by the smart fans. But outside of the matches in Canada against Austin, Benoit never got huge babyface pops. Jericho, as a babyface, always had the ability to keep fans into his matches once the bell rung. I don't think Benoit had quite yet been able to master that feat before he was injured.

 

If they are going to pair up Benoit with Arn Anderson when he returns and make Benoit a silent killer, he'll be fine. But if they bring him back as a babyface, he's going to have to improve his mic sills to stay on top. Benoit's promos have improved a great deal since he entered the WWF and I think he can work them up to the level they need to be. But like you said above, it's just a matter of the WWF committing themselves to making Benoit a top star.

[Guest]

intensity isn't all rvd "doesn't" have.  Maybe the whole SPOT wrestler thing had something to do with it.  Maybe he is not a good "wrestler".  Maybe he is just like jeff hardy was 2 years ago.  Maybe......

 

--Rob